Spiritual Master and Disciple—Part 03

Giriraj Swami: The injunction that one should not accept too many disciples or unqualified disciples. One should not accept disciples for the sake of prestige or opulence. In many places, Srila Prabhupada in the shastras mentions that if a spiritual master does accept disciples for the sake of prestige or opulence, he will fall down. Although the danger of associating with neophytes or materialistic persons is not restricted to disciples only. If a spiritual master, in general, surrounds himself with neophytes, whether they are disciples or not disciples, neophytes who are not pure devotees, then he can fall down.

So, one of the defects of the past dealings of some of the spiritual masters who fell down was that they somehow deprived themselves or denied themselves of the proper association that they should have gotten from other devotees at similar levels of advancement. Another way of describing the difficulty that the gurus had in the past is that they were imitating Srila Prabhupada. As we discussed, if one is on a lower platform and he imitates a mahā-bhāgavata, he will fall down. So, it’s not the kaniṣṭhādhikārī what to speak of madhyamādhikārī will cause one to fall down, but if one imitates a devotee on a higher platform, then he can fall down.

Well, there are many ways in which a person can imitate a mahā-bhāgavata, but we can discuss a bit because it’s pretty significant. The mahā-bhāgavata is in a superior position to the kaniṣṭhādhikārī and to a madhyam-bhāgavata. And we just read that the kaniṣṭhādhikārī and the madhyamādhikārī should listen very attentively to the mahā-bhāgavata. So, if one imagines himself to be a mahā-bhāgavata or if one tries to act as a mahā-bhāgavata without being the mahā-bhāgavata, then his dealings with other Vaishnavas will not be proper.

Just like madhyamādhikārīs are supposed to exchange obeisances and they are supposed to make friends with each other. But if one imagines oneself to be a mahā-bhāgavata, then he’ll artificially try to put himself in a superior position to the madhyam-bhāgavata and thus, he’ll be guilty of violating proper Vaishnava etiquette or, in other words, he could become entangled in offending Vaishnavas due to trying to put himself in a superior position. And although it is the position of the spiritual master to chastise or correct the disciple, it’s not his position to chastise or correct those who are not his disciples.

So, someone pretends or imagines himself to be a mahā-bhāgavata. And therefore, to be in the position of a spiritual master to everyone, even madhyamādhikārī and all sorts of kaniṣṭhādhikārī, then he becomes offensive in his dealings with the other devotees, which leads to falling down. The other offense created by imagining oneself to be a mahā-bhāgavata is that one thus minimizes the position of the mahā-bhāgavata, bringing him to the same level of the imitator mahā-bhāgavata.

Now, at this stage, I’d like to mention the other point about Srila Prabhupada being the founder acharya, or being an empowered incarnation. Because it may be that other uttama-adhikārīs in ISKCON, there could even be, hopefully one day, hundreds and thousands of uttama-adhikārīs in ISKCON, but still, because Srila Prabhupada is the founder acharya, they cannot try to take his place. They have to remain faithful to his teachings and obedient to his teachings.

So, in the time of Lord Chaitanya, there may have been many uttama-adhikārīs, but still, Lord Chaitanya was the supreme acharya. And then after Him, Svarupa Damodara, Rupa, and Santana. After the disappearance of Rupa and Santana, Jiva Gosvami was the acharya. So, for other Vaishnavas who worked under the guidance of Jiva Gosvami like Narottama dasa Thakura, Srinivas Acharya, Shyamananda Prabhu, it doesn’t mean that they were not uttama-adhikārīs, but the position of the acharya for all the Vaishnavas in the world is special. And Srila Prabhupada is the founder acharya, that means he is the acharya for all the Vaishnavas in ISKCON for all time. Even if there is one or two or ten or twenty or a hundred or a thousand uttama-adhikārīs within ISKCON, they always have to be obedient to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, and they have to accept him as the founder acharya, and they have to give him the preeminent position in the sampradāya.

Just like we quoted Bhaktivinoda Thakura, that the founder acharya is the principal śikṣā-guru in the sampradāya. So, whether there is no uttama-adhikārī or hundreds of uttama-adhikārīs, Srila Prabhupada’s position as the founder acharya still has to be honored.

But even coming to the argument that there are no uttama-adhikārīs in ISKCON, still, if one chants the holy name of the Lord with faith and studies the revealed scriptures and associates with an uttama-adhikārī, one can oneself become an uttama-adhikārī. So, in relation to the question of associating with an uttama-adhikārī, you mentioned the fact that there are different types of association. One is physical association, and the other is association by transcendental sound vibration.

So, if one seriously studies Srila Prabhupada’s books in the mood of a disciple who wants to get instruction from Srila Prabhupada in a practical way about how one should live one’s life as a devotee and how one should conduct one’s activities in devotional service, one gets the association of Srila Prabhupada. And to say that Srila Prabhupada is gone and there is no way that we can get his association now simply is not true. It just is not true. But getting his association depends on us.

What to speak of Srila Prabhupada, even when Lord Krishna was present, very few people actually took advantage of His association as the Supreme Godhead. Most people thought He was an ordinary human being. So, the ability to get association depends on us also. But if we actually are surrendered to Srila Prabhupada, we actually accept him as our instructing spiritual master, and therefore, we are eager to hear everything that Srila Prabhupada said about devotional service, we can get personal instructions from Srila Prabhupada and know how to deal in each and every circumstance from moment to moment, exactly as Srila Prabhupada wanted us. And moment to moment, we will also have Srila Prabhupada’s association.

So, the conclusion of the conclusion is that if we become faithful devotees and we accept as a spiritual master someone who is a pure devotee, and we follow his instructions and the instructions of Srila Prabhupada as they are given in his books, then we can attain the highest perfection of life.

So, at least, I cannot find any serious philosophical grounds for despair. I cannot find any legitimate grounds for despondency, for feeling that there is no chance to become Krishna conscious, there is no chance of making it. I feel that these things are due to lack of proper knowledge. And as we’ve been discussing, advancement in Krishna consciousness means developing faith, and developing faith means advancing in knowledge. So, I believe that if we actually have proper knowledge of the different subjects that we’ve been discussing, we will come to the conclusion that we have everything that we need to become fully Krishna conscious and develop love of God and go back home, back to Godhead.

And therefore, in terms of knowledge, there is no reason why we should not maintain faith in the process that Srila Prabhupada has given us and in everything that Srila Prabhupada has left for us within ISKCON, including the devotees, the Deities, the organizational structure, the preaching mission, and everything else that is part of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada has actually left everything that we need to have to be completely successful in devotional service. And therefore, any sense of despondency or moroseness or cynicism is actually the result of a lack of proper spiritual understanding, which is the cause of our lack of faith.

I think maybe we have to have some other time to discuss because it’s nine o’clock, you have to meet someone at ten. So, we’ll run some other time, either tomorrow during class or whatever time we consider appropriate to discuss these things more fully. And you can just share our realizations, whether they tend to confirm some things that I’ve said or tend to question. We should discuss them and keep discussing until it becomes clear, but at least more clear. Sri Jagannatha Ratha-yatra ki jaya! Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Yesterday, I invited the devotees to comment on any of the topics that we’ve been discussing. Otherwise, we could go into the next topic. Just to summarize one point from yesterday that will lead into. . . Am I going too fast? If anybody has some thoughts on your mind, please say, don’t be shy.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:15:49].

Giriraj Swami: What I was saying was that the question is not uttama-adhikārī, but the question is a pure devotee. The verse says. . . Well, you know the verse. So, the purport says that unless one is a pure devotee, one cannot be delivered from the repetition of birth and death. And therefore, unless one is himself being delivered from the repetition of birth and death, how can he deliver his dependents? So, I was making the point to the contrary, that to say that we have to wait to become uttama-adhikārī is not feasible, but what we have to do is become pure devotees, which means surrendered souls to the process of Krishna consciousness and to the instructions of the spiritual master. And that is within the reach of all of us and any of us, and if we become pure devotees in that sense, then we can act as gurus, act as husbands, act as mothers, act as fathers, and so on.

And we read yesterday specifically that even a neophyte devotee who has faith that the holy name of the Lord is not different from the Lord is to be considered a pure devotee, even though in the neophyte stage. So, that is the point that we have to become pure devotees in the sense of being sincere servants of Krishna and Srila Prabhupada and not engage in any other activities besides Krishna consciousness, like fruitive activities or mental speculations. There may be some traces of impure thoughts or desires or emotions, but those do not disqualify one from being a pure devotee, as long as one has full faith in the process of Krishna consciousness and does not adulterate one’s practice of devotional service with other processes.

Krishna says that if we surrender to Him, He will deliver us from all sinful reactions. But sometimes it is seen that a devotee will still suffer what appears to be sinful reactions. But the suffering of the devotee is under the control of the Lord. It is not the same as ordinary suffering of people under the laws of karma or material nature. So, the sufferings sometimes come in the form of physical calamities, sometimes the suffering comes in the form of mental disturbance also. But a pure devotee will not be deterred in his progress of Krishna consciousness by any disturbance, either physical or mental or internal or external. And that is the qualification of the pure devotee, in the sense that we are using the term. And in that sense, we can act as gurus or relatives or fathers, mothers, husbands, and so on.

If others have thoughts or questions, they can also speak. So, jumping over in the cases of fallen spiritual masters, direct approach to param guru. One specific question has been asked, but the general instructions regarding the disciple of the fallen guru are found in Srila Prabhupada’s books to the effect that one should reject a non-bona fide spiritual master and accept a bona fide Krishna conscious spiritual master.

Now, the obligation of accepting a bona fide Krishna conscious spiritual master could take one of three alternative courses; one is to accept another guru as dīkṣā-guru, two is to accept another guru as a śikṣā-guru, three is to take direct shelter of Srila Prabhupada. Taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada means to follow Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. Srila Prabhupada is the śikṣā-guru of all of us anyways, and if someone who lost his spiritual master can surrender fully to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions and feel completely sheltered and protected by Srila Prabhupada and his instructions and his mission, then, in theory, there would be no need to accept any other individual as śikṣā or dīkṣā-guru.

Of course, the point is subject to different opinions by different persons, because although eighteen months ago, when the GBC presented the three alternatives, various devotees in the meantime have requested for more guidance or clarification. And last year, the GBC decided to form a committee to do further research into the subject to determine whether one of the three alternatives was considered better than the others, or one or even two of the alternatives was considered not bona fide at all.

And because there was so little detailed information about the subject in Srila Prabhupada’s books, it was discussed that we could refer to other authorities in the sampradāya, and some evidence was put forward that Srila Prabhupada had instructed one disciple to translate all Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s work in English. And other devotees cited the fact that Srila Prabhupada referred us to various scriptures in his purports as evidence to the effect that we could consult other authorities in the sampradāya.

So, the two books which have the most detailed information about the fall down of the guru are Sri Krishna Bhajanamita by Narahari Sarakara Thakura, who was a contemporary of Lord Chaitanya, one of the branches of the Lord Chaitanya tree. So, in his book, he discusses the guru in many aspects, and also the fall down of the guru, and he says that if the guru falls down by certain criteria which he gives, then the guru should be rejected and another bona fide Krishna conscious spiritual master should be accepted. And he concludes by saying that there are many instances of this in the pastimes and in the associates in the time of Lord Chaitanya. But again, what is the meaning of accepting a Krishna conscious bona fide spiritual master? Does it have to be dīkṣā-guru, can it be śikṣā-guru, or could it be Srila Prabhupada himself?

Then in Harināma-cintāmaṇi, Bhaktivinoda Thakura discusses the holy name and the ten offenses. So, under the offense of guror avajñā—disrespecting the spiritual master, disobeying the orders of the spiritual master, Bhaktivinoda Thakura discusses about guru. Because first, one must identify a guru, and then one must follow his instructions. And Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that if the guru becomes fallen, then the disciple is not bound to follow his instructions. So, Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that sometimes one may start as an exalted famous spiritual master, and then due to bad association, one may fall down. And he says such a guru should be rejected. Then he says that by the grace of Krishna, the disciple of the fallen guru, one will get a new bona fide spiritual master.

The same question persists, what is the meaning of a new bona fide spiritual master? Does it mean a dīkṣā-guru, or could it be śikṣā-guru, or could it even be a guru who is living not by physical presence but by the transcendental teachings? So, over the course of the year when the committee was supposed to be doing more research, I, at least, have not heard of any new evidence to support one of the three alternatives over the others, or to reject any of the three alternatives. So, it seems to me, at least now, that the three alternatives will exist, and that it will be up to the individual and maybe the arrangement of the Lord to determine which of the three alternatives is most appropriate for the individual.

So, since the GBC body has prevented one of the alternatives as taking direct shelter of Srila Prabhupada, we couldn’t really say that taking direct shelter of him was jumping over. But in fact, it could be jumping over if the Lord had another plan for the devotee. But what is the Lord’s plan for the particular devotee again depends very much on the methods by which we understand what the Lord wants us to do. So, it can’t be considered standard for everyone. It’s again individual. Krishna dasa Swami. . . I think we’ll just stick to Prabhupada’s words.

Next question, we have read that one who chants the holy name of Krishna should be given all respects. We are also told that listening to a non-devotee chanting the holy name is like drinking that which has been touched by the lips of the serpent. How are we to reconcile this?

Well, what we have read is that different types of devotees who chant the holy name should be given different types of respect, and that one who chants the holy name even once can be respected within the mind as being a devotee. Respecting someone within the mind does not mean that one has to associate with him. We have read that if one has taken initiation from the spiritual master and is fully engaged in serving the spiritual master and chants the holy name, he should be offered respectful obeisances. And we should faithfully serve and associate with that devotee whose heart is completely free from the propensity to criticize others.

So, we advise to deal in different ways with different types of devotees, but there are persons who are not devotees who chant the name, like the Mayavadis. Mayavadis, they speak about Bhagavad-gītā. They may even speak about Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and they chant the name of Krishna. But because they are Mayavadis, they are not devotees, or they are pretenders, we don’t really benefit by hearing them chant, and in fact, we should avoid them for the same reason, that milk touched by the lips of the serpent causes poisonous effects.

Although our chanting may not be pure, but our chanting is considered pure in the sense that we are not consciously committing offenses, we are trying to become free from offenses. Whereas the Mayavadis and the pretenders who chant, they are making no effort to become free from offenses. In fact, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādha, Lord Chaitanya says that the Mayavadis are the greatest offenders at the feet of Lord Krishna. So, we should avoid the chanting of Mayavadis and non-devotees, but a beginning devotee who chants the holy name and is trying to become purified of the various offenses, his chanting can be heard.

Srila Prabhupada said that the chanting should be heard from the lips of a pure devotee. So, when one disciple wrote Srila Prabhupada and asked him what about people who don’t hear the chanting from him, Srila Prabhupada replied to the fact that, “You heard the chanting from me or someone who heard the chanting from me, and because you are sincere devotees or trying to be sincere devotees, receiving the chanting from you is the same as having received the chanting from me.” We can see practically the effects. Although Srila Prabhupada is not personally present, people are hearing the transcendental vibration of the holy name from his followers, and they are chanting, and they are dancing in ecstasy. They are chanting in turn, and there are many references to support the same principle.

When the hunter was converted by the influence of Narada Muni. So, the hunter changed very dramatically due to the association of Narada Muni. In the purport, Srila Prabhupada said, “This is the effect of associating with pure devotees.” And he basically says that people who associate with ISKCON devotees who are chanting Hare Krishna and following regulative principles, they can also be changed just like the hunter.

So, Srila Prabhupada gave the example of a mango. Sometimes people would ask Srila Prabhupada, “Are you the only pure devotee in the world, or are there any other pure devotees?” And sometimes Srila Prabhupada would say, “All of my sincere disciples are pure devotees.” And then he gave the example of the mango, that a green mango is also a mango, just like a ripe mango. But the ripe mango is more sweet. So, in one sense, any sincere followers of Srila Prabhupada can be considered a pure devotee, but he might be like an unripe mango that may take time to mature. This is my purport; as long as the mango remains attached to the tree, then it is expected that the mango will gradually ripen and become sweet and juicy.

So, basically, if someone has the qualification of being a sincere servant of the spiritual master, his chanting will be effective, and we can offer that devotee respect. It’s interesting that Rupa Gosvami mentions ordinary devotees have been initiated because as we read in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the chanting of the holy name is not dependent on initiation or on the processes that are preliminary to initiation. But the purport is that the offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on any other process. If one is not able to chant purely, he requires some process of purification.

In the process of purification called bhajana-kriyā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo ‘tha bhajana-kriyā. So, if someone has some preliminary faith and one associates with devotees, then one surrenders to the spiritual master, takes initiation, and begins devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, that is bhajana-kriyā. Then comes anartha-nivṛtti, which means vanquishing anarthas. So, offenses are caused by anarthas, even though we don’t want to commit offenses, but because of the presence of anarthas within the heart, we commit offenses anyway. So, we have to get rid of the anarthas. So, by the process of bhajana-kriyā or serving under the guidance of the spiritual master and preaching and worshiping the Deity and so on, one becomes freed from anarthas. Then, one really becomes fixed in Krishna consciousness and develops a taste for chanting and hearing.

So, without following the process for getting relieved of ignorance and getting relieved of offenses, how will we come to the stage of chanting offenselessly? Of course, Krishna consciousness continues; it may continue over many lifetimes. And therefore, the Bhāgavatam says that one who is chanting the holy name of the Lord is understood to have taken baths in all the sacred rivers, having undergone all the purification ceremonies, having chanted all the sacred mantras, and so on. That’s because he is chanting the holy name of the Lord.

It’s possible that someone who is chanting the holy name of the Lord has already gone beyond anartha-nivṛtti or may even be on the highest platform of devotional service. So, that person chants the holy name of the Lord; he doesn’t have to undergo initiation or purascarya or anything.

Just like the wives of the brahmans in Vrindavan, it’s described, I think by the brahmans themselves, that the brahmans were condemning themselves that when the cowherd boys came to beg for some food for Krishna and Balarama, they refused to give them anything. But then, when the cowherd boys asked the wives of the brahmans for food, the wives came immediately to see Krishna and Balarama, surrendered themselves, and gave them some food. So, the brahmans were condemning themselves, “In spite of our yajña and in spite of our mantras and in spite of everything else, we could not develop the right love for Krishna like our wives.”

Although they didn’t undergo initiation, they didn’t undergo the various formalities for making advancement, such persons were either very advanced from their past lives or were possibly even eternal associates of the Lord who descended to participate in the Lord’s pastimes. But if we are not on the platform of offenseless chanting spontaneously, then the general procedure is to follow the instructions of the spiritual master to become free from offenses and ignorance and gradually come to the stage of pure chanting.

But again, in the case of someone whose initiating guru has fallen, especially if the guru was chanting sixteen rounds and following the four principles at the time of the initiation, then the initiation can be accepted as valid. There is no rule that one should be initiated again. So, one can be considered initiated, and then one can follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada to make further advancement, or the instructions of the Vaishnavas. Any more questions or comments?

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:49:19].

Giriraj Swami: I was planning to stick to Srila Prabhupada’s books and instructions. Of course, we accept sadhu, shastra, and guru. I wouldn’t put myself forward as a sadhu, but I can think of one or two sadhus that I could quote.

In England, devotees are taking initiation again, some of them. And Krishna dasa Swami was speaking to me; he thinks it’s very good for the devotees who have. He said that there were so many devotees who were depressed, despondent, sometimes in one temple, sometimes in another temple, sometimes doing one service, sometimes doing another service, sometimes going to India, sometimes coming back. He said that they had found in England that when the devotees took initiation again, it was like they got a new life. They became completely changed. They became blissful. They became enthusiastic. They became fixed in their service. They became cooperative with the other devotees and the authorities. So, we thought it was very good.

There was one iṣṭagoṣṭhī spiritual master when I was there. Shivram Swami mentioned the three alternatives, and then he gave his view, that there seemed to be a hierarchy among or within the three, that taking initiation again was the easiest way of becoming strongly connected, accepting someone as śikṣā-guru was next, and taking direct shelter of Srila Prabhupada was the most difficult. So, Shivram Swami replied that taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada was the most difficult. So, Shivram Swami replied that if we look at Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, although some of them left when Srila Prabhupada was personally present, many more of them left after he disappeared. So, he concluded from this phenomenon that even disciples who were directly initiated by Srila Prabhupada had difficulty maintaining their Krishna consciousness without further help. And he was saying, what to speak of people who were not actually initiated by Srila Prabhupada? That was his reasoning.

I’ve seen in other places also that, of course, it has to awaken within the heart of the devotee. It can’t be composed artificially. But if it happens to awaken in the heart of the devotee to surrender and be initiated again, and then the devotees are initiated again, those devotees, it is really like they get a new life. They just become completely different, and it becomes really noticeable to the other devotees. So, the other devotees start thinking maybe they should also be initiated again, it means in some cases. But it is really an individual matter, and it’s not the best alternative for one that will be the most appropriate for another. But the type of desperation that some of the disciples who have lost their spiritual masters is fairly common everywhere. And it’s not even a matter of being aware that one’s spiritual master has fallen. But if one spiritual master has actually fallen, then one’s connection is either very weak or almost broken.

Because I saw in Pakistan, although Kirtanananda Swami’s disciples don’t think he has fallen, they think basically he is jagat guru or guru acharya because actually, he had deviated from Srila Prabhupada and the paramparā and Krishna—he was very weak. And the result was that the things which they could do easily before, they couldn’t do. Every year, they used to put on a, I guess by urban standards, the small Ratha-yatra, but it was nice in its own way, it was very nice. But after Kirtanananda Swami deviated, they couldn’t do it. They just didn’t have the strength or the enthusiasm to do it. Although within their minds, they were thinking, He is my guru, he is the best of all.

And one devotee basically who was not initiated by Kirtanananda Swami, he in the end organized the whole Ratha-yatra. They managed to come for the parade. He tried to take the credit. Now, in the year or so since then when I visited, I saw that they weren’t even able to maintain their. . . Well, many of them were not even able to maintain the four principles, which they could have easily maintained before. They were smoking cigarettes, eating onions, and they just didn’t have the strength, even though within their minds, they still thought they were connected.

So, I mentioned this to one devotee in Johannesburg, and that devotee mentioned one letter from Los Angeles that had come from one disciple of Rameshwar dasa, who was saying something like, “Before, when I used to chant my rounds, I used to think of pleasing him. And now I have no enthusiasm even to chant my rounds.” So, I don’t know, when you actually start speaking to devotees, some feelings like this actually come out. “I don’t even feel like doing my Gayatri, I don’t even feel like chanting my rounds.” So, we have to be connected. We have to be connected.