The Importance of Accepting a Guru

Giriraj Swami: Only through the mercy of the paramparā but through the paramparā the experience is also direct.

Devotee: Yes, why because it says that we should ask confirmation to spiritual answer for everything we should because sometimes we have feelings which are true. Also I mean we can say also that it is that it is also coming from the Supersoul like you said these dreams. . .

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but Srila Prabhupada writes in the Gītā that that everything is inspired from the Super Soul within and it confirmed by the spiritual master.

Devotee: But realistically did Prabhupada act like that, that he wanted every single but you see?

Giriraj Swami: That is the same point, in other words, if I tell him that you just go to Barcelona and arrange the program but don’t ask me about it. Whatever you do is okay with me, that is my instruction. And if I say that you go to Barcelona, you look into different sites, you tell me about the sites and I will let you know which one to choose, that is also my instruction. But when there is no direct relationship with the guru then it is like you are not giving the guru the chance to give you the instruction to report back to him. It may be that the guru says you don’t have to report back to me and just go and do it but maybe the guru will say, I want you to report to me. So then it depends on the guru if I say just go and preach and don’t tell me what you do. Just get the results. That is my instruction, that is my choice or my instruction is I want you to go do the research inform me of the facts and I will tell you what to do next, that is also my instruction. But when there is no direct relationship then there is no possibility of one type of instruction then you are like taking it upon yourself that you will just do it without reporting. So it is not like what you say is true in some cases but that depends on the guru, if he wants to tell you to report back to him and check with him. He may or he may not.

Some devotees were discussing that as far as the editing in Prabhupada’s books, Prabhupada said something like whatever Nitai does, I want to see it first and whatever Jayadvaita does just print it. So that was Prabhupada’s choice. But we cannot say that well, because Prabhupada told someone so and so he could just do it on his own without reporting back therefore I don’t have to report back. That depends on the order of the guru and when there is no direct relationship you are not giving the guru the chance to tell you that you have to report back to him. You are just like unilaterally putting yourself in the category of some devotees that Prabhupada didn’t say that they should report back.

Devotee: That is a good argument.

Devotee: But this is what happened in every service the devotees have to report back to somebody also, every service they do not. I mean somebody who worked in a temple there is some service for example has to report with temple presidents and it is not that spiritual master is not here.

Giriraj Swami: That the same as the guru. In other words, in any organization there is discipline. Even in a mundane organization there is discipline. You have to report to the boss but that doesn’t mean you have faith in the boss. But guru, the relationship with the guru is based on faith. In other words, if the temple commander tells me to do something and I don’t agree with it, I may have to do it anyway because he is the authority but still I could maintain the idea that the instruction was wrong. Or maybe not wrong but that it could have been done in a better way but if the guru tells you to do something and you think that he is wrong, that is an offense.

So one has to have faith in the guru first. He can test the guru before I mean maybe that was one of the defects of the system in the past but basically one should test the guru before then when one is convinced that this person is representing the part of the paramparā, Prabhupada or Krishna, I can surrender to him then you can approach for initiation. But with the temple president or the temple commander or the saṅkīrtana leader, you may have to do what he says as a matter of discipline but you don’t have to believe that what he said is the best thing.

Devotee: Sometimes I hear that the leader is the representative of the guru, like the president like this I hear in the past.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but that doesn’t mean that. Suppose I say that the saṅkīrtana leader is my representative so you should do whatever he says and try to please him, so you have to do it. That doesn’t mean you have to think that everything he does is right. If I say that the saṅkīrtana leader is perfect in every respect and that when this saṅkīrtana leader speaks it is the same as Krishna speaking, that would be something different. Just like the GBC is Prabhupada’s representative but he didn’t say that like when the GBC speaks it is the same as Krishna speaking. In other words, we can we can have our own views but as discipline we have to obey, that is something else. Prabhupada gave the example that someone’s driving the car, so you might think there is a better way of getting to the destination. So you can tell the driver but ultimately the driver may not agree with you, for the driver will drive in a different way. So because he is the driver so you have to go along with him in the way that he wants but within yourself you can still think that your approach was better.

Devotee: This is very good for the disciple but realistically it could be very difficult for many gurus to take this position of absolutism and realistically not be on that platform. We have seen individuals encounter that difficulty with their own spiritual life.

Giriraj Swami: The disciple’s point of view will be different.

Devotee: I am saying are we are we in the are we in the. . .

Giriraj Swami: The disciple will think that that the guru, he has faith in the guru but the guru doesn’t have faith in himself independently. He has faith in his words of his guru.

Devotee: In theory yes.

Giriraj Swami: So you don’t think that that someone is following the theory?

Devotee: Then you as an individual might not surrender but I am saying just the concept of because we have seen realistically that we have rushed into the guru understanding and many individuals have been fatal.

Giriraj Swami: Because they deviated from Prabhupada.

Devotee: Yes, but to deviate from Prabhupada is easy in one sense.

Giriraj Swami: Well you don’t have to be a guru to deviate from Prabhupada.

Devotee: Everyone can deviate it is very easy yes so to add on the difficulties, it makes it even harder or easier to add on to add on the difficulties so this absolutism of.

Giriraj Swami: It doesn’t add difficulties; it makes it more critical that the guru follows.

Devotee: The guru takes big heavy responsibility from the guru right he has to really suffer the consequences.

Giriraj Swami: So that would depend on the individual. Otherwise the opposite logic would be well I am not a guru so it doesn’t matter much if I deviate from Prabhupada because maybe it will affect me but it won’t affect others. In other words, someone shouldn’t try to act as guru prematurely but it is the same thing what if Prabhupada wants you to act as gurus. You are not going to say, no it is too difficult, I need a little more room to deviate. Being a guru is also a service for Srila Prabhupada, right?

Devotee: But something like this for an example and you were saying that when you have your living spiritual master he gives so much instruction and so that you know then he is given a specific instruction so what happens, when for example Srila Prabhupada has left the planet and ten years later one has to take on the responsibility of guru and he is feeling that Prabhupada wants him to do that. Where is that confirmation coming from?

Giriraj Swami: GBC body.

Devotee: There is no possibility of mistake?

Giriraj Swami: Well that is something else. In other words, if a mistake on whose part?

Devotee: Mistake on the GBC body? Like you gave an external answer. You gave an answer which was an external sort of answer, the association of Vaishnavas and the GBC body is given a blessing. Is there any also confirmation in the heart? If you are saying one shouldn’t try to be a guru prematurely yes so one has to feel that himself he is ready also because one could also get. I think I have heard of the GBC body saying now you must initiate and the devotee is saying no. So is that his mistake or does he also have a confirmation?

Giriraj Swami: In other words, Vaishnavas like Krishnadasa Kaviraj Gosvami before writing he got so many confirmations. So I would say something that is really important should be confirmed from many sides.

Devotee: From this level of initial re-initiation, devotee’s relationship with Prabhupada but it seems that there has to be confirmation given to the devotees. In the sense that guru āśraya paper that has been put out by the GBC realistically it encountered not so much conviction or satisfaction from many devotees, many devotees have said this. So but it seems that there needs to be a conclusion and even inside that conclusion if there are varieties of possibilities.

Giriraj Swami: You see anything directive to the devotees to research into the subject of guru is continuing for the present year so I mean the GBC would like more information, more evidence. So the order is continuing it is not like this is going to be the first and last paper of the subject.

Devotee: It seems an open forum of devotees would to facilitate a lot coming to some conclusion because this subject matter is very often discussed and everybody has—

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but the conclusions have to be reached on the basis of shastra.

Devotee: Of course, but to do that in the assembly of devotees it would could save a lot of time. One mass meeting with devotees with their research with their papers and coming together in a body and discussing them because otherwise it is like, it goes from one position to another and one devotee says something and someone else comes along and says something else and it doesn’t stay here.

Giriraj Swami: Well that is not a bad idea to come together and discuss. If some devotee has some really convincing arguments or convincing evidence, it is better if he puts it in writing so that other devotees could study it that does go into the meeting without the background.

Devotee: Because there has been many papers mailed with different evidences and different points but then if it is not in a whole meeting with everything together then someone else goes against that point outside of the meeting and not everybody understands why or not everybody agrees it should be together little by little. If there is an argument in the floor it should be discussed on the basis of shastra, devotees and when it is not clear you know the different points could be going on and then when it becomes clear you go to a next point the next point because otherwise there is no sidhanta and without the sidhanta so it is difficult for them.

Giriraj Swami: But one party might have this sidhanta or the other party might not have this sidhanta but that doesn’t mean they will automatically accept the party who has this sidhnata.

Devotee: But at least we should think that the massive devotees will accept this sidhanta. I mean we can’t expect all individuals to accept this sidhanta but at least the devotees everybody listening somehow you know the sidhanta should come out. That is the power of the association of Vaishnavas.

Giriraj Swami: I am confident in the long run, true understanding will prevail.

Devotee: In the short run, there is a lot of energy

Giriraj Swami: But suppose you don’t have the right sidhanta, how can I force you to have the right sidhanta in the short run? I am hopeful that in the long run you will get it.

Devotee: By expertise. Bu expertise one can do that. well by deep Krishna consciousness so deep Krishna consciousness we understand comes out just like an ecstatic kirtan and it doesn’t come out with two devotees in maṅgala-ārati, it comes out with five hundred devotees in Ratha-yatra. So the deep conclusion can actually be very much transformed in the association of many devotees because I see, I mean realistically everyone sees a different understanding, a lot of energy has been lost. Faith is the first principle. Without the faith, where is the beginning where is the surrendering? Where is the continuation? So there is so many devotees’ faith is very unreposed. It is very turbulent and so I am sensitive because I just see the preaching. Devotees are not actively engaged.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, the faith either the faith has been weakened or where to repose itself.

Devotee: That is a very good point especially when there is contradiction coming from seemingly equal individuals- one guru and one guru one GBC one GBC, one sanyasi one sanyasi, with contradictory understandings.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I don’t know I mean like, I was under the impression that the guru āśraya paper was approved by the GBC body.

Yadunandana Swami: I was in Mayapur for this year. So I don’t think this paper has been done, in how you say lightly because it has been studied very deeply and the GBC, and Iṣṭagoṣṭhī with all the temple presidents of all the leaders and they there was a lot of discussion about the subject. And then finally there was the there was a subcommittee another subcommittee from members of the GBC and from the temple presidents who were added to the committee that was formed before to investigate the guru issue and then it came this paper and was approved by the GBC. I think I will say at least what we have the sidhanta we have that what we have right now.

Devotee: I head from another devotee from Mayapur a different.

Yadunandana Swami: This is shastric evidence, Bhakti Sandharbha, Jivadharma, this is shastra.

Giriraj Swami: After I got the paper from Sivram Swami about Kabir Bapu. So he was convinced by Kabir bapu’s paper then I met Tamal Krishna Goswami and we discussed so he had not read about Kabir Bapu’s paper but he had come to the same conclusion. Then I met Jayadvaita Swami and I asked him and he had read about Kabir Bapu’s paper and he accepted it. And I haven’t met any GBC member that is expressed any opposition to the conclusion of the paper although I haven’t met every GBC member but like Badri Narayana he thought that the material in Bhakti Charu Swami’s letter to Rupa Vilas should be added to the guru Acharya paper to make it stronger and more complete. So there may be some proposals regarding the mode of presentation but I haven’t found any GBC members with different conclusion. I mean I was convinced by the by Kabir Bapu’s paper even before the GBC concluded because of the evidence.

Devotee: The Krishna Bhajanamrita was a book that was quoted quite often in Kabir Bapu’s paper and also in the guru Ashraya paper. In Krishna Bhajanamrita, I don’t see any. . . we just had a discussion with Nandarani (Daya Nanda’s wife) about this and she was saying that why is there a quote from the Krishna Bhajanamrita because that is not orthodox commentary and Prabhupada didn’t want us to study unorthodox commentaries and so I didn’t know what that meant. So what I did was I went through all the Prabhupada’s in the back there is always quotes from where Prabhupada made up how what the commentaries he made on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the Bhagavad-gītā where he gets quotes from and it doesn’t appear actually in any he didn’t ever use any quote from the Krishna Bhajanamrita in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Giriraj Swami: Narahari Sarkar Thakura is one of the branches of the Chaitanya tree. He is a personal associate of Lord Chaitanya, so are you trying to say that he is a conditioned soul?

Devotee: I am asking why; if you know any information of why Prabhupada didn’t use them and why would she say something like it is unorthodox.

Giriraj Swami: Well why she would say it is unorthodox.

Devotee: This word unorthodox and orthodox have you heard it or heard Prabhupada use it?

Giriraj Swami: Not really. In others we accept the statements of liberated souls as authority. So if we accept Narahari Sarkar as a liberated soul, personal associate of Lord Chaitanya and then what he puts his conclusion at the end of Krishna Bhajanamrita is that this is the this is like the essence of the shastras and this has been confirmed by so many incidents in the pastimes of Lord Chaitanya among the associates of Lord Chaitanya. So what he is presenting according to him is coming from the scripture and coming from the precedents that were sent by Lord Chaitanya’s associates during Lord Chaitanya’s pastimes. So unless we take him as a conditioned soul who is subject to the cheating propensity, we have to accept what he says and he is the personal associate of Lord Chaitanya, he is mentioned in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the branches of Lord Chaitanya’s tree.

Devotee: Can you think of the reason why Prabhupada didn’t quote?

Giriraj Swami: Well the book or the section of the book that we have deals specifically with guru-tattva in sort of detail in some intricate aspects. So Srila Prabhupada didn’t get into so many intricacies with us but that doesn’t mean that the book is not relevant now that we are facing complexities or need guidance. In the GBC meeting there was one discussion about referring to previous acharyas and someone quoted Srila Prabhupada saying that we should accept the or study the writings of the previous acharyas. So, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Lord Chaitanya’s name isn’t listed in the list of incarnations but he is described indirectly. So indirectly Srila Prabhupada said that the statements of the liberated soul are accepted as authority and there is one song by Narottama dasa Thakura where he says that the associates of Lord Chaitanya are liberated souls. I think we would have to accept and what he says doesn’t contradict what Bhaktivinoda Thakura says or what Jiva Gosvami says or what Sanatana Gosvami says, it is actually in harmony.

See it is possible that there might be some slight differences even amongst the acharyas, so that we would take whatever Prabhupada said or whatever was most close to what Prabhupada said or whatever Rupa Gosvami said because we are rūpānugas but in the case of what Narahari Sarkar saying it is the same as what Jiva Gosvami says, Sanatana Gosvami says, Bhaktivinoda Thakura said. There is no contradiction.

Devotee: You were saying that in the Krishna Bhajanamarita there was detailed instruction on the guru-tattva and Prabhupada didn’t give so much of that detailed information.

Giriraj Swami: Well Prabhupada emphasized a lot about paramparā and serving the guru but he was talking about the fall down of the guru or the deviation of the guru which Prabhupada didn’t deal with in so much explicit detail.

Devotee: What is your understanding of why he did it?

Giriraj Swami: Because he knew the books are there when the time comes, it is just to give a crude example. Suppose a boy and a girl get married and maybe I think that in the end they are going to separate but that doesn’t mean that the day of the wedding I give them the divorce act. After one year I give them the divorce act, if it does come to that the divorce act, they could always refer to it but why introduce it. It is sort of a negative, it is not a bit of a problem.

Devotee: But can’t we also argue that in the sense that I mean Prabhupada doesn’t hesitate to paint the realistic picture of reality in his teachings.

Giriraj Swami: Well, in the story of Bali Maharaja, the subject of the guru deviating and how the false guru is treated and in the purport he quotes the verse from Maha Bharata he gives the translation that the false guru should be rejected and a bonafide Krishna conscious spiritual masters should be accepted. Now when Jay Tirtha left we didn’t have so many other books. We didn’t have so many other books we just read about Bali Maharaja rejecting Shukrya Acharya, we read the verse of the purport and we, means the GBC concluded that this is the procedure that you should reject the false guru and accept a bonafide Krishna conscious spiritual master. So actually the conclusion that the GBC reached that on the basis of Prabhupada’s books was acceptable and in view of all the subsequent scholarship that has been done we come to the same conclusion but.

Devotee: How to accept this a little different in detail? I mean what does it mean to accept I mean that is like maybe evolved?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, well see there is a logic that would go against the idea of accepting that accept a bonafide Krishna conscious spiritual master means accepting Srila Prabhupada because we have already accepted Srila Prabhupada. So if the dīkṣā-guru deviates, what is the meaning of saying that well in place of the dīkṣā-guru, we will accept Srila Prabhupada as śikṣā-guru. You already accepted Srila Prabhupada as śikṣā-guru, what we have to do is accept someone in place of the dīkṣā-guru. So it is sort of logical that you reject. You have to reject something; you have to accept something in its place. So the thing that you are accepting has to replace the thing that you are rejecting. Because we already accepted Srila Prabhupada as śikṣā-guru. Everyone in ISKCON accepts Srila Prabhupada as śikṣā-guru whether the dīkṣā-guru deviates or not. So when the question of replacing the fallen guru arises it would seem to indicate something more in the immediate sense.

Devotee: What is the understanding of the injunction that it is always forbidden in the shastras to accept more than one dīkṣā-guru?

Giriraj Swami: You don’t have a dīkṣā-guru.

Giriraj Swami: You don’t have a dīkṣā-guru. You need one. You don’t have one.

Devotee: So then if the father dies one doesn’t take birth again. He continues living.

Giriraj Swami: Well that is your analogy.

Devotee: No I am asking your response.

Giriraj Swami: Well we are discussing. It is like the relationship with the material father is temporary. In other words, he is going to die sooner or later but the link with the paramparā is supposed to be permanent. So if the link ceases to act as the link for you then you need another link, whereas material father he is going to die sooner or later anyway. The relationships of the body are all temporary but we are discussing a relationship that is supposed to be eternal.

Devotee: So then we go on to the principle of the dīkṣā being a continual process and therefore because the dīkṣā-guru has fallen that continual process is not continued and this is a conclusion coming from Tira Bhava’s paper. He is come up with evidence about the continual dīkṣā process. So I just myself have never read in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings very much understanding or even any understanding on this level of how dīkṣā being a continual process as Prabhupada talks about dīkṣā and refers to it being the beginning.

Giriraj Swami: Well, surrender to the guru is continuous. So there is no guru to surrender to then where is the continuity? Dīkṣā sort of summons the relationship of surrender. So without the guru to surrender to. where is the surrender?

Devotee: But the guru just because of the physical demise of the guru I mean.

Giriraj Swami: We are back to the same point that so many of Prabhupada’s disciples didn’t get any direct instructions from him but if he wanted to give them direct instructions he could have given them but he didn’t. It comes back to the same point that you are you are removing the possibility of the guru giving you some specific instruction. You only have the general instructions. So the idea of surrendering to the specific instruction is not applicable not because the guru doesn’t want to give you a specific instruction because you don’t have a guru to give you a specific instruction.

Devotee: But we can also receive specific instructions. Is it possible to receive specific instructions from the guru and through other via mediums? If for example, I remember rightly reading the Līlāmṛta, the actual instruction that Prabhupada got to print books physically came through somebody else and Prabhupada received that as coming from a spiritual master.

Giriraj Swami: Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura told him directly if you ever get money, print books.

Devotee: Isn’t that explained in the Līlāmṛta how Prabhupada was writing books, just writing articles or something, he never thought of this idea of printing books.

Devotee: Yes, both are there. Bhaktisiddhanta and . . .

Giriraj Swami: He was publishing Back to Godhead. Somebody suggested that Back to Godhead can be thrown away but a book will remain.

Devotee: For example, when one gets a specific . . .

Giriraj Swami: Okay, now let us put it this way. You are saying that Prabhupada can speak to you through somebody else even if he can’t speak to you directly. Now if I tell you that you need to accept a spiritual master how do you know that Prabhupada is not speaking to you through me. Well then you just pick and choose if something suits you then it is coming from Prabhupada and if it doesn’t suit you then it is not coming from Prabhupada.

Devotee: Well I mean on that you know that is that is that is that is

Giriraj Swami: That is the problem, that is the problem.

Devotee: Well one can also.

Giriraj Swami: What if Prabhupada sent me here; what if Prabhupada kept me here, made all these devotees wait for six hours. That is because Prabhupada wanted someone to tell you that you need a guru but you are not saying it is Prabhupada. But if someone says you don’t need a guru that is Prabhupada but how do you know which is Prabhupada?

Devotee: Time will tell. Yes, isn’t it? Time will tell. Just same thing how do we on the execution of the practical service.

Giriraj Swami: Time will tell that is not philosophy because

Devotee: it is if there is actually variety if there is this if there is actually two possibilities just like to in to fulfil specific service or practical service we are encountering so many difficulties and we are encountering so many things that go wrong we have to learn and this and that and little by little we are feeling that we are seeing in our experiences in Krishna consciousness we are learning things. We are learning how to perceive how to do things properly.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, and improve but on the basis of sadhu, shastra, and guru.

Devotee: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: In other words, we did Ratha-yatra so next year it may be better but the principle of Ratha-yatra is coming from Prabhupada and coming from Mahaprabhu. So the question is whether the attempt to connect oneself to the previous acharya is approved by shastra and whether the attempt to do so is a misdirected attempt or not. Like materialists are trying to be happy in the material world so we say it is not possible but they can say, “Well, time will tell because I am new at it once I get some more money and become more expert. But we know from shastra that the platform is wrong from the beginning so yes we can improve in following the instructions that are authorized but if we try to improve in an effort which is not based on shastra from the beginning then what is the use?

Devotee: But you didn’t give that only possibility you are saying there is also it could also be exceptions so

Giriraj Swami: Yes exceptions, yes maybe exceptions. I don’t mean you and me. I mean like liberated souls that is also confirmed by the shastra. Like Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura; he didn’t have direct relationship with Narottama dasa Thakura but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have a dīkṣā-guru but he came to the liberated platform and when he was on the liberated platform he got inspiration from Narottama dasa Thakura.

So in our line we see Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Narottama dasa Thakura but there is no evidence that the procedure see if you come to that point that if you are liberated you don’t need to be initiated at all but the same quote that I am sure you are familiar with where Prabhupada says that is he called Rupa Gosvami that one can actually chant Hare Krishna on the liberated platform. And for one who is chanting on the liberated platform there is no need of dīkṣā but then Srila Prabhupada says that since practically all the souls we have to initiate are conditioned, so dīkṣā is necessary. So the exception is like the liberated soul not the conditioned soul. So the basic disease of the condition so is he doesn’t want to surrender so the surrender is tested by the guru.

Devotee: I am trying to understand more this and this understanding you were saying about specific

Giriraj Swami: So the surrender is tested by the guru or the surrender is expressed towards the guru.

Devotee: For example, if we say devotee who has never received a specific instruction from Prabhupada but he is taking up his instructions distributing books for example he is going out every day distributing books.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but if Prabhupada wanted to give him a specific instruction he couldn’t. Prabhupada wanted me to do some service in Bombay. Now if I disobeyed Prabhupada’s instruction to serve in Bombay and I went to do books in the streets I would fall down because I would be disobeying the instruction that I got from the spiritual master.

Devotee: On so many specific levels we see that devotees especially since they are three years now since they are initiating guru have fallen down they’ve gone on implementing so many specific instructions in service.

Giriraj Swami: Oh well, everybody does some specific service but you are doing the specific service that you like to do or that you want to do. Everybody has to be engaged so somebody is cooking somebody is cleaning, somebody is preaching, somebody is distributing books but it is like in ISKCON. If you want to cook and you don’t want to clean even if the authorities want you to clean instead of cooking, they will let you cook because at least you are doing something but you are not showing surrender, you are engaging, you are not surrendering to a specific instruction. So you are saying I like to cook well that could have been my specific instruction. If Prabhupada were here he would have told me to cook anyway but you don’t know, you don’t know.

Devotee: On such a point I don’t see how that stops one actually surrendering because one has to

Giriraj Swami: Who are you surrendering to you don’t have anyone to surrender to?

Devotee: So that means Prabhupada is not present and Prabhupada is not actually guiding. Prabhupada is not giving instruction and making one engage in actual obscurity and doing things that he doesn’t want to do for the sake of dreaming and

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but if we take Prabhupada’s instruction that one should surrender to a spiritual master what about that?

Devotee: Well if we take aside that instruction

Giriraj Swami: Yes, we talk about it what instruction where is the surrender? So your point is you don’t know if the one instruction applies or not.

Devotee: It does apply because realistically I accept Prabhupada as a bonafide spiritual master and I perceive myself surrendering to him and to going through meaning not doing just what I want to do. I mean if we want to realistically get into details, we can see so much austerity going on and not for one’s sense gratification actually to please Prabhupada. So what is that? Where is the enthusiasm?

Giriraj Swami: It is a stage of progress; it is a stage of progress. So we are back to the question whether the stage of progress of serving Prabhupada directly, without surrendering to a specific representative of Prabhupada whether that is sufficient to take one to the ultimate goal? That is the question.

Devotee: And your understanding that is not us.

Giriraj Swami: Well like I said, there could be exceptions that is not us. I don’t think that we should think that is us. It is the same example that there may be kṛpā-siddhi just like there may be an honorary degree but we shouldn’t think that we will get the honour degree, we should think we have to go to the university, we have to study, we have to do the work so that we will get the degree.

Devotee: So you were using an example in those tapes that I was listening to you were saying that there is some hesitation by the devotees to actually surrender because of the faith.

Giriraj Swami: That is being broken that is right and

Devotee: Then you were saying well if you don’t surrender you will get a certain result and if you do surrender then maybe you won’t get the ultimate result in the sense that you could also be cheated again and you were saying then maybe it is better to actually do that; surrendering even at the risk of being cheated again.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, because in Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s discussion of the false guru, the mind is one of the false gurus. So when you say that you don’t want to surrender to somebody else. In fact, you could be just surrendering to your own mind unless you are liberated. If you are liberated, then there is no influence of the material mind but if you are conditioned you may be influenced by the material mind and the material mind is one of the false gurus that can mislead the conditioned soul. So unless you are going to take the position that you are liberated then what you are actually choosing between is your own mind and some spiritual master and to have more faith in your own mind than in another Krishna conscious spiritual master is questionable.

Devotee: What are the two balances? One balance is he takes his own mind and in the realm of Krishna conscious instruction he goes on hitting his head against the wall little by little, somehow making an ounce of progress or he surrenders totally to the Krishna conscious spiritual master, gets out of the mental platform accepts just authority and surrenders it develops faith and therefore so much thing and then the spiritual master leaves.

Giriraj Swami: The same point you don’t need to have the spiritual master leave to deviate. Even if the spiritual master leaves you can avoid deviating in the grossest sense.

Devotee: But realistically we see this faith is it is very difficult to develop and once it is lost it is very different but yes that is true and also faith has developed over a period of time. So for example one might find his initiating guru who is his link to the paramparā in many many years.

Giriraj Swami: That is saying it may take many years and that is why I am not in favour of forcing or rushing

Devotee: But meanwhile I mean Krishna consciousness by nature is very intense and living in the association of the devotees is by nature very intense. So meanwhile it is understood that he should hurry up because you know now he is just on the mentality he is missing out, so that could encourage a mood to prematurely choose someone who does not have full faith in.

Giriraj Swami: Well you shouldn’t do that.

Devotee: So therefore the other side of you know take your time don’t worry because Prabhupada is temporarily taking care of you and he is giving you what you need and we can see this as you were saying before we don’t know if it is on a long term basis you are mentioning this point that you could see that at this time devotee were definitely getting taken care of definitely.

Giriraj Swami: Prabhupada is definitely helping them.

Devotee: So meanwhile that should be for the devotees who feel that is their stage of what they are at. I mean even though it might just be little advancement and missing something that realm of encouragement and enthusiasm should be there. I have heard from senior devotees’ statements like “Let us see how long they last and not in the mood of let us see how long they last.” It is like, let us see how long they last because when they are fallen and it is definitely validate our point yes and this is a I mean it is a something that is in the air

Giriraj Swami: Well Prabhupada actually said that devotees actually take pleasure when they are calamities in the material world because they support the philosophy of Krishna consciousness.

Devotee: Personally, I like that understanding; realistically we just see you know

Giriraj Swami: If you meet some big enjoyer and he is saying, “Oh life is great; I am eating meat, I am drinking, I am enjoying, I don’t accept Krishna consciousness.” Then you go back and he is like his wife ran off with someone else and his business is down. Then it actually helps him; could help him to come to Krishna consciousness. Now, one of the ways that Krishna. . . well anyway Krishna deals with each devotee individually but one of the impetuses to surrendering is like Arjuna. When he was perplexed and he surrendered so when we get in some difficult like when we get in some difficult situation then we may realize the need more acutely than we do now that doesn’t mean that that they don’t want that that is an extreme I mean

Devotee: That is a good example but it is really delicate too difficult to implement it practically in the association with devotees because it goes into the level of breaking one’s faith in one’s guru. Mentally speaking maybe one is accepting someone as a guru, as a worshipable object yes but it is actually breaking that faith saying that it is actually it is a hallucination it is not actually

Giriraj Swami: What they are saying is they are not saying that Prabhupada is not the guru but they are saying that you are not really accepting Prabhupada’s instruction. In other words, Prabhupada’s instruction is to accept a spiritual master and surrender and generally that is taken to be a living spiritual master so what they are actually that you are saying that you are following Prabhupada and accepting Prabhupada’s guru but what they are saying is that you are not actually accepting him; that you are accepting him a name right but nobody is because he is surrendered.

Devotee: And I say to that that we have to be very very cautious because we have actually many times in our youth and an experience in Krishna consciousness given something which is we have been convinced of as sidhanta, as even on an individual level and on an institutional level, and then as years go on actually the sidhanta is a little so yes this is like a little bit. Time will tell because we don’t know this phenomena, it is very unique.

Giriraj Swami: I don’t mind; time will tell but I am just saying on the platform of time will tell. You have your beliefs and he has his beliefs so he tells you time will tell it is just a matter of time till you fall down and you say well time will tell. Maybe in time your sidhanta will be disproven or maybe in time it will be there will be successful examples. So that is all right time will tell but that doesn’t solve your problem that you want to be encouraged in your effort to surrender to Prabhupada directly because on the platform of time will tell the argument works both ways so the people who don’t think you will succeed, they can use the same argument

Devotee: Yes, but as devotees they should use the philosophy of encouragement because we don’t know it is not we don’t know it is not going to happen and if it is not going to happen

Giriraj Swami: They are sure it is not going to happen.

Devotee: They are sure. So how can they say they are sure.

Giriraj Swami: They have their own reasons.

Devotee: Yes, they have their own reasons; they have some evidence. Yes very very difficult to say that and that goes back to my point which I said originally with full conviction. In our own individual Krishna consciousness and collective decisions made we have actually pushed forward something which as time goes on with a little bit of reflection and the result to prove it we have actually realized, oh there has been a little mistake. So to go on this level that there is no possibility for mistake because we have the evidence

Giriraj Swami: But you could also be wrong.

Devotee: Yes most definitely.

Giriraj Swami: So why should you assert that in the interim period your idea should be because courage

Devotee: Because realistically it is not including breaking gross principles of Krishna consciousness creating speculative philosophies it you know it is there are many Vaishnava devotees

Giriraj Swami: They would say that this is speculative.

Devotee: They would have to prove it and first of all what we do then is we take that little issue aside and then we study we take the time to study the character of a devotee

Giriraj Swami: I can see your character you don’t want to surrender. So we encourage you - carry on, carry on. I can’t surrender. I am a perfect disciple.

Devotee: Actually I am sure that if we serve together and associate it together simultaneously we could appreciate in each other some surrendering going on.

Giriraj Swami: I would agree to that. 

Devotee: So and we see realistically so many devotees

Giriraj Swami: So that is why I was hoping that if you are on the path of surrender and if one of the milestones on the path of surrender is accepting a specific spiritual master then I would say proceed on the path of surrender and then when you come to the milestone on the path that says that you should surrender, we will hope you do

Devotee: And what if the milestone comes? There is actually no surrender to a specific spiritual master but a continuing process of surrendering to Srila Prabhupada. Is there encouragement in Krishna saying, paraṁ vijayate kṛṣṇa kīrtanīyā anywhere in the air?

Giriraj Swami: But that would contradict all of the evidence that we have.

Devotee: So then again yes, we have under we have taken in evidence and according to time place and circumstance we have actually come to an absolute conclusion

Giriraj Swami: Well you have time and in the time maybe new information will come to light new realizations will occur. Anyway don’t worry about it but it is like we are all going according to our own realizations. So my realization is that the evidence from the authorities is that one needs to have a link.

Giriraj Swami: You are including that evidence that it is not possible for Srila Prabhupada to play that role that he could not be a living link to his grand disciples. This cannot be a current link.

Giriraj Swami: Well I will just come back to the same point, that would not be the usual procedure but there could be rare exceptions and how rare you