NOD – VIHE Nectar of Devotion—Part 22

Devotee: Twenty-six qualities of a devotee describe that as one that advances in Krishna consciousness, he gradually manifests more and more. The same is true with these symptoms of bhāva in more stages, they’re also increasingly more evident?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, as one advances in sadhana from shraddha to bhāva, then the same qualities will become more and more prominent.

Devotee: A devotee is situated in niṣṭhā, experiences some of the drops of ecstasy?

Giriraj Swami: It’s a very good question. He is saying, “Can someone in the stage of niṣṭhā have some experience of the of ecstasies, like hair standing on end or crying?” It could be, but it may also be an ābhāsa of bhāva, which is actually the next topic for tomorrow. It’s a semblance, it may be a semblance of ecstatic symptoms, but it may not be the ecstasy, which is described here, that’s completely on the platform of śuddha-sattva. But it’s mentioned that even an ābhāsa of bhāva is very valuable and by association with pure devotees, the ābhāsa of bhāva can turn into real bhāva.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Well, here two questions arise. One—do you want to go to Vaikuntha? and Two—why don’t you want to get prema? Is there any?

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: One can enter. Well in the case of the sages at Dandakaranya, for example they only achieve bhāva, and they took birth from the wombs of gopīs on the planet, where Krishna was having His pastimes, Bhauma Vrindavan. And then by the association of the eternal gopīs, they got to develop prema, sneha, māna, praṇaya, rāga, anurāga, bhāva, and ultimately mahābhāva, but I’m not aware about Vaikuntha.

Devotee: As far as Gaudiya Vaishnavas are concerned, we go to the planet where Krishna is if we come to that platform of liberation or bhāva. What about a devotee of Vaikuntha? Does he go straight to Vaikuntha, or does he take birth in the preliminary existence?

Giriraj Swami: As far as I had understood, in general, there may be exceptions, but as far as I understood in general, if one has simple prema without going up to aga, anurāga, bhāva, or mahābhāva, he can go to Vaikuntha. And even in the material world, one can come up to prema- the beginning of prema. And you see Krishna and Rama are līlā-avatāras. Of course, Krishna is avatāri, Krishna is the origin of all avatars, but They come to the material world and display pastimes. So, except for the fact that Lord Narayana will appear, to give darshan to devotees here, He doesn’t really come in the category of līlā-avatāras who come and perform various pastimes and go from one universe to another. But if it’s in Tattva-sandarbha, then certainly we accept it.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Sorry. . .

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: In bhāva. Svarūpa-siddhi comes in bhāva. So, you should read Chapter Nineteen about prema-bhakti. There won’t be any written homework assignment, and then tomorrow, I guess we’ll discuss rati-ābhāsa and prema, and then maybe a little review. Oh yeah, no tomorrow’s the last day before the exam. So maybe a little review before the exam, but otherwise most of the points are on the outline and the outlines that you’ve got. And the exam will cover everything from the beginning. I mean some of the items that we discussed before the midterm exam but most of the questions will be on the subjects we discussed after the midterm exams.

That Vrinda devi, she is very merciful to the devotees and fulfills all the desires of the devotees. In one place, I gave a seminar and The Nectar of Devotion so one of the devotees kept a picture of Vrinda devi, and whenever she didn’t know the answer to a question, she would look at the picture of Vrinda devi, and I think she got it—almost all the answers she needed.

Devotee: You should have seen what was written at the back of the photo.

Giriraj Swami: So, he says, “You should have seen what was written on the back of the photo.” But no cheating, no cheating. If someone cheats, he fails because he is going against pure devotional service. We should have no material desires. We should only want to please Krishna.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: You say Krishna is cheating sometimes. Yes, most of the time. It’s true but we should not imitate Krishna. We should follow His instructions. And Rupa Gosvami says that devotees should act in the mode of goodness, and they should be straightforward in ordinary dealings but there are always exceptions. Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Nitai-Gaura premānande Haribol!

One could be in the most painful situation, but if he gets the chance to serve Krishna, he’ll feel it as pleasure, and he could be in the most comfortable situation, but if he is in separation from Krishna, he’ll feel it to be most painful. So, like this there are different symptoms of very high levels of prema. 

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yes it’s in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta. These different stages are mentioned in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Lord Chaitanya’s instructions to Rupa Gosvami and Santana Gosvami, it’s also mentioned. But you have it. 

Devotee: Is it possible that they could appear with Lord Vishnu [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Once we went to the printer in Pakistan, and we were getting the Krishna book printed in Sindhi. So, myself and one of the best devotees there, went to see. So, he was taking us around showing us what the machine could do, and I guess convincing us that they could do the job. So, while he was standing by the machine and speaking to us one of the assistants brought a stool for him to sit down on, and then the other devotee was very intelligent. He said about the apprentice, that he will go very far; he is serving the master.

Devotee: So, the devotees that goes to Vaikuntha could they possibly go like with Nṛsiṁhadeva; Matsya, could they go to Him and then they experience that pastime. Those that are attracted to say to Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva or something so they go to the planet to be the eternal devotee of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva—And does He have the same type of form, half-man and half-lion. . . Or does He have a Narayana form, what do those devotees experience?

Giriraj Swami: Prahlad Maharaja is an eternal devotee of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva—half-lion half-man, and he prays to Him in the Fifth Canto. Different devotees in different places pray to different incarnations. They go to their object of worship.

Devotee: Right, but I remember reading a letter that Prabhupada wrote. He said that there are no animal forms of the Lord in Vaikuntha. So, then I was thinking what different forms, they may have themselves the devotees of the respective incarnations?

Devotee 2: But in Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta, it is explained that the devotees they have svarūpa mukti. So I guess it has something to do with it right, and they all look like whoever they worship, that’s what I mean. I never thought of that to read, do you know anything more about this Vamanadeva, Narasinga. . . Do the associates have four hands or like Krishna or almost like svarūpa mukti. This question that devotees asked, asking some time ago and the answer by vaidhī-bhakti you obtain Vaikuntha but nobody goes straight to Goloka what about the devotees of Narayana? [Unintelligible]

Devotee 1: In this world, almost exactly so that’s like svarūpa you were also saying about this question and I remember asking this question a long time ago and the answer was that sādhana-bhakti you go to Vaikunta. But nobody goes straight. . . Everybody goes to the planet where whoever he worships is going. So, I ask what about the devotees of Narayana, where is the sadhana bhumi? Because Narayana doesn’t come as Narayana and the answer was they just have to move. That means they go straight. They just go straight into them because I guess they very much like to stay ordinary. . .

Giriraj Swami: I never heard that they could go straight with bhāva. I mean I know with bhāva you can be elevated to the planet of Krishna or universe, but with Narayana I thought, you have to have prema to go to Vaikuntha. Yeah, the mood is Vaikuntha. Vaidhī devotee. You can achieve prema by vaidhī-bhakti. Yeah, simple prema, it's simple prema.

Devotee: One question came that in Hari-nāma Cintāmaṇi in one translation, it was mentioned that by namābhāsa chanting, one can attain Vaikuntha. Was that correct?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, even ordinary devotees have read that. I never heard that with bhāva you can go to the planet of Vaikuntha.

Now Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam mentions that Bhīṣmadeva was one of the vasus, one of eight vasus and Uddhava also. But still there is an eternal Uddhava and there is an eternal Bhisma. When I mentioned that one of the eight vasus became Uddhava or Bhisma, it means that, the depending on how you look at it that the living entity, who is coming to play the part of Bhisma is empowered by the original Bhisma or you could say that the original Bhisma and the vasu Bhisma joined together in the same body. And then when it’s mentioned that at the end of the Lord’s pastimes, the demigods go back to their respective places and the eternal associates of the Lord go with the Lord into the Lord’s pastimes. It means that the demigod portion goes back to His form and the eternal associate, he stays with the Lord in the Lord’s pastime but otherwise they are eternal associates that some living entity can join with them.

Devotee: In Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta mentions that the devotees who are in Vrindavan are of the original form and they expand themselves. Like Nanda and Yasoda, they expand themselves. They come as Drona and [Unintelligible]  So those are like partial expansions of them [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: No but in Krishna-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvami explains that when there are references to Krishna’s associates in His pastimes on earth who have come from the higher planets that they join with the eternal associates. And then they go back to the heavenly planets when Krishna’s pastimes are over, and the eternal associates continue with Krishna.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: But Krishna’s pastimes are also eternal in the material world because they go from one universe to another. So, some devotees who want to take part in the type of pastimes Krishna has on the earth, they can choose to travel with Krishna in the material universes and have the same pastimes.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: There are spiritual planets even in the material world, and they don’t get wound up when everything else gets wound up, they stay eternally. So, the places of Krishna’s pastimes in the material world are also eternal although they don’t look like they’re eternal, but they are eternal and Krishna’s pastimes are eternally manifest there but not manifest to us who don’t have the eyes to see them. Just like right now, they’re eternally going on in Vrindavan. So, there is, yeah, so Krishna appeared and for 125 years, He manifests His pastimes, and then He ended them, but actually they don’t end—they continue, of course they go to the next universe, and they continue in manifest form, but here they also continue in unmanifest form. So, the eternal associates, they stay with Krishna in the unmanifest pastimes also.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: No, there are two divisions—prakata and aprakata. Prakata means manifest. aprakata means unmanifest. So, the demons are only in prakata. They’re not in aprakata. But even on earth, there is both prakata and aprakata.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, I mean in Goloka there are three divisions – Vrindavan, Mathura, and Dvaraka. But here, I haven’t seen anywhere, in any book but they say if we take. . . Anyway, I won’t give the reasoning. But I would say the conclusion would be that they are eternally present in the same places that they were here, like Kurukshetra.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, in the material universe, but in the spiritual world there is no mention. Like in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta it says, Goloka has Vrindavan, Mathura, and Dvaraka. There hasn’t been any mention of Hastinapura or Kurukshetra there because such pastimes with the demons don’t exist in the same way there. Some pastimes are eternal in the spiritual world, and some are just occasional for the material world. Say like Krishna’s appearance, that’s occasional in the material world, it’s not eternal in the spiritual world. But say the rāsa dance is eternal in the spiritual world.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, those are occasional. They’re not eternal pastimes in the spiritual world—fighting with the Kauravas and so on. But they’re eternal in the material world—Mathura and Dvaraka. Then there is Svetadvipa, which is—it’s part of Goloka in a sense – it’s part of Goloka and then there is Navadvipa, Jagannatha Puri, and I’ve heard two things: one is South India and one is Vrindavan because Lord Chaitanya visited Vrindavan. It’s in one of the purports in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta. But anyway, let’s say there are three sections of Svetadvipa—Navadvipa, Jagannatha Puri and South India.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: South India there is a group of people called Dravid and most Vaishnavas are found in South India. He said in Sri Tattva-sandarbha of Jiva Gosvami it said so. In other words, don’t laugh when we say South India. That’s the purport.

Yeah, so just as Krishna’s pastimes are eternal in Vrindavan, Mathura, and Dvaraka. Similarly, Lord Chaitanya’s pastimes are eternal in Navadvipa, Jagannatha Puri, and South India or Vrindavan, let’s say Vrindavan, but not all of the pastimes are eternal. Just like in Goloka Vrindavan there is no fighting with demons. So, similarly in Svetadvipa, there is no fighting with Mayavadis but performing saṅkīrtana, having darshan of Lord Jagannatha, performing Ratha-yatra, partaking of prasādam with devotees—these are eternal.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: In Krishna’s pastimes, they are gopīs. Both are eternal. In other words, while Swarupa Damodar and Ramananda Raya are with Lord Chaitanya, Lalita and Vishaka are with Radha and Krishna all at the same time. It’s not that they leave Vrindavan and come to Navadvipa, and then there is no Lalita and Vishaka.

Devotee: We can switch the questions from tattva over to rasa because I wanted to ask you as we are talking about different devotees in different locations, but we know that in the Bhakti- rasāmṛta-sindhu that it describes that the Vṛṣṇis are also in rāgātmikā-bhakti. Although we know that there is definitely a difference between the vrajavāsīs and the Dvarakavāsīs but the Dvarakavāsīs are still categorized as performing rāgātmikā-bhakti because they have intense desire to serve Krishna, and there is a mixture of mādhurya and aiśvarya, now I’m under the impression that because of Bhakti Charu Swami was discussing this point from Bṛhad- bhāgavatāmṛta, and he was saying that basically that this rāga more or less begins at the Pandavas and not before. . .

Giriraj Swami: There is but it’s not pure, because in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Narada Muni says that the gopīs by kāma, Kamsa by fear, Shishupal by envy, then he says the Vṛṣṇis by sambandha. you, the Pandavas by affection, sneha, and we the devotees in general by bhakti. But that sneha has not been taken in rāgātmikā-bhakti. Only two divisions have come in rāgātmikā-bhakti, that is kāma and sambandha. And the reason it hasn’t been taken is that in the Pandavas, there is too much mixture of reverential affection. So, it can’t come as rāgātmikā-bhakti but there may be some element of pure friendship. So, the pure element anyway will come in sambandhātmikā but it’s otherwise out of those six. Rupa Gosvami could have taken sneha in addition to kāma and sambandha, but he didn’t take it because there is too much reverential affection in the Pandavas and whatever pure friendship is there any way it will come in the sambandha.

Devotee: Sambandha is rāgātmikā.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, so I’m saying there is some element of it, but it’s not pure. In the vrajavāsīs, it’s pure.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Well it’s secondary. Rupa Gosvami says that the primary form is the residents of Vrindavan like tat-tad-bhāva-ichha-mayī. That is the primary form of kāmānugā-bhakti and sambhoga ichha-mayī is the secondary form, and actually, it’s not really recommended. But because Rupa Gosvami was describing the complete science of bhakti-yoga so he has included it, but actually it’s not recommended. So, although it’s mentioned in the initial stage with reference to the verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the general emphasis in rāgānugā-bhakti is on following the inhabitants of Vrindavan.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: But if there is mixed rāgānugā and vaidhī, then someone can go to Dvaraka.

Devotee: Sometimes [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: But see in Dvaraka, there is mixture with vaidhī. Like the queens they follow vaidhī, they are lawfully married to Krishna, and they do their duties as wives, they have children, they do their duties as mothers. So, there is definitely vaidhī but there is definitely rāga but it's mixed.

Devotee: The Dvarakavāsīs, do they only reach the level of sneha, what level of prema do they reach? [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: No, the queens have mahā-bhāva, but there are other developments in Srimati Radharani, and there are levels of mahā-bhāva—there is rūḍha and adhirūḍha.

Devotee: [Unintelligible] kāmānugā more important. . .

Giriraj Swami: There they don’t want to meet with Krishna directly, but they want to serve Srimati Radharani and help Her in Her pastimes with Krishna. Yeah and by doing so, they get all the same bhāvas or they experience all the same emotions as Srimati Radharani.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yes, say if Krishna embraces Srimati Radharani, so all the same experience and even all of the same symptoms Srimati Radharani experiences in Her body and Her mind, the same are experienced by the mañjarīs, but the sakhīs who are friends of Srimati Radharani won’t get the same experience but the mañjarīs will get the same experience but indirectly, through Srimati Radharani. So, they also have kāma. They also have the desire to please the senses of Krishna, but they don’t try to fulfill the desire directly, but they try to fulfill the desire indirectly through the meeting of Radha and Krishna.

Devotee: [Unintelligible] But does that mean that we have to be in ābhāsa ruci?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah for a moment or so. Well, it’s mentioned. One of the symptoms in Bhakti- rasāmṛta-sindhu, its flickering, its flickering but by especially, these things chanting the holy name hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, residing in Vrindavan and observing special holy days, when these things combine one can experience rati-ābhāsa.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Devotee2: Depending on the category of the rati-ābhāsa, there are different categories that some may be experienced even by non-devotees who are not even practicing any sadhana.

Devotee1: Yeah, so it depends on what particular category of ābhāsa you are talking about.

Devotee: You want to talk about it so we can understand a bit more.

Giriraj Swami: Well, the main thing is association with pure devotees. If one associates was pure devotees and in the association of pure devotees, chants the holy name or hears Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and especially in Vrindavan and especially on holy days, then he can get some semblance of their ecstasy.

Devotee: Is there a particular ecstasy or just in general?

Giriraj Swami: Well, I suppose there is vaidhī-rati-ābhāsa and rāgānugā-rati-ābhāsa?

Devotee: How can we distinguish?

Giriraj Swami: Anyway, I would say that not to worry about too many technicalities. Just keep associating with pure devotees and follow the same process that they follow and become a pure devotee.

Devotee: But is the one that pratibimba ābhāsa that lasts; there is the chāyā that’s the one that fades away doesn’t usually become rati-ābhāsa.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, but pratibimba rati-ābhāsa doesn’t usually become śuddha-rati because they have desires for material elevation or spiritual emancipation which is against pure bhakti. And in chāyā rati-ābhāsa they’re like ordinary people, who are just inquisitive about what they are doing, what kind of experience they are having, so he wants to try it. Yeah, so if someone wants bhukti or mukti, and if he has heard from the scriptures that just by chanting the holy name one can get mukti very easily whereas by the other processes, he has to endeavor for so long and with so much difficulty, he may not get it even then. So, then with the motive of getting mukti, he can chant the holy name and imitate the other activities of pure devotees. So, because he has some goal, he may continue for a long time. He is not just curious, but again because the motives are against pure devotional service although he may get mukti, but he won’t get real bhakti. Yeah, whereas an ordinary person who’s just curious without any goal of bhukti or mukti, but just out of curiosity he comes and joins the chanting and associates with pure devotees, because he is not specifically doing anything against the principles of pure devotion, by the association of pure devotees he can become a pure devotee, and his rati-ābhāsa can become śuddha-bhāva.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada used the term para. . . Does that refer to [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Well, we haven’t been able to find the correlation between the word para and śuddha-para.

Devotee: I’ve heard some stories that like in the airport the devotees were chanting waiting for Srila Prabhupada to come in an airport in Chicago or L.A and devotees would start crying and even businessmen who were standing just watching they would just, they would offer their obeisances, and there would be tears streaming from their eyes, and they don’t even know who Srila Prabhupada was. When Srila Prabhupada arrived one time in a helicopter, and when Prabhupada came out, half the devotees were rolling on the ground crying. A lot of them were bhaktas, I have heard so many of these stories.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Both. When a rāgānugā-bhakta becomes perfect and joins the eternal pastimes of Krishna, then he becomes rāgātmikā-bhakta. Rāgātmikā means he has to have at least rāga, that means premā, sneha, māna, praṇaya, rāga, anurāga, bhāva, mahābhāva. So, it's a higher development of prema.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: I told those who got the association of the nitya-siddha gopīs and became qualified, they could join the rāsa without any hindrance. But the ones who still hadn’t come to the level of mahābhāva, they were prevented from joining the rasa, but still they were attracted to Krishna, and they felt separation from Krishna. So, by intense feelings of separation, all of the impurities were burned. All of the aśubha means inauspiciousness were burned up. Their inauspiciousness means their attachment to their husbands and their children. So then, when that was burned up, then they realized that Krishna is everything. He is my all-in-all, and nobody else has any significance for me, then having let go of all other attachments and only being attached to Krishna, which is one of the—it’s part of the definition of prema that the devotee has no sense of possessiveness in relation to anything or anyone except Krishna. So, then Krishna entered their hearts and embraced them within the heart, and then being embraced by Krishna within the heart, all auspicious things were burnt up – auspicious things mean the qualities that attracted the affection of their other family members. So, then when both types of impurities were burned up in the fire of separation, then they were qualified to meet Krishna, and some were able to meet Him in the very same night, and some met Him in some future occasions.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Well, they were on the way to becoming rāgātmikā, but once they come to mahābhāva and meet with Krishna, then they’re accepted with the other eternal associates, they become eternal associates.

Devotee: Could you explain the statement when Tamal Krishna Maharaja warned when he said that we shouldn’t imitate. . . and then said, “Imitation of a good thing is also a good thing.” 

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, so at first, he said, “We should not imitate,” but then he said, “Imitation of a good thing is also good.” So, we can also imitate.

In the sense that just as Prabhupada remained undisturbed by bodily conditions, we should also try. Just as he remained absorbed in Krishna consciousness to the end, we should also try to be absorbed in Krishna consciousness to the end, in that sense. Which is not really an imitation, it’s really. . .

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura – Yes, they wrote down everything he said. Yes.

Ok, Srila Prabhupada ki. . . Jaya! Nitai-Gaura premānande. . . Haribol!