BG 9.13 – Making the Intelligent Choice

Giriraj Swami: 

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

Reading from Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, Chapter Nine, “The Most Confidential Knowledge,”

TEXT 13

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha
daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ
bhajanty ananya-manaso
jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam

TRANSLATION

O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

In this verse the description of the mahātmā is clearly given. The first sign of the mahātmā is that he is already situated in the divine nature. He is not under the control of material nature.

COMMENT

So, there are two natures, the spiritual nature, and the material nature. The material nature is personified as goddess Durga, and the spiritual nature is personified as Srimati Radharani. So Durga, generally the word Durga means fort or prison. Dur means difficult and ga or gama means to go. So, the material world is the prison house of Durga or the fortress of Durga, and it is very difficult to go from there. Durga is depicted riding on her lion carrier, and she holds a trident or triśūla with three prongs and with the three prongs, she is piercing the conditioned souls or the demons. And the three prongs represent the three-fold miseries of material existence; adhyātmika miseries caused by one’s own mind and body. Of course, we all have experience. We get headache or stomach ache or toothache; there is so many diseases of the body, the stresses of the body. Even now we run the fan to counteract the distress of too much heat, and in winter at night, we run the heater to counteract the distress of too much cold. So, there are always so many distresses. Some distresses are caused by our own bodies, some distresses are caused by our minds, just like we may be attached to some loved one and the person may die and we suffer so much within the mind.

Then ādibhautika; ādibhautika are miseries caused by other living entities. Once in Mayapur, Srila Prabhupada was talking about Durga, how she punishes the conditioned souls. And then he said that now he was living on the third floor of a beautiful building in the holy dhāma, very nicely decorated with marble tiles and other fittings and fixtures. But he said still, even though we are on the third floor of a beautiful building, the Durga’s agents are there; the flies, they enter on the third floor and they harass us so much. Sometimes also mosquitoes, they harass us so much, we don’t even feel like staying there, we want to leave immediately. And then he said, in the morning when we wake up, we see so many flies dead, so many insects dead, we can collect a heap of dead insects. So, they are also suffering, although they are acting as the agents of maya or Durga, they are also suffering. They live through the night, and then in the morning, they are dead. And the human beings also, they struggle throughout the night, and then they die. The night means darkness or ignorance. So, the human beings also are struggling in the darkness of night or the darkness of ignorance, and they die just like the insects. So in principle, there is no difference between the life of an insect and the life of a human being in the darkness of ignorance. Both struggle for a certain little period and then die.

Therefore, Sri Prabodhananda Sarasvati has prayed that for one who has been blessed with a little mercy of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, there is no difference between the great demigods like Indra even, the king of heaven, and the insects. There is no difference because even the demigods are struggling and then they die, and the insects are struggling and then they die. So, the hard struggle for existence takes place in the material world, in the fortress of Durga, and the goal of Vedic civilization is to escape from the control of material nature and the punishment which is inflicted by Durga with her triśūla. Once when Srila Prabhupada was in Venezuela, one disciple noticed that the mosquitoes were biting everyone in the room except Srila Prabhupada. So he said, “Srila Prabhupada, you are such a pure devotee, the mosquitoes are biting everyone in the room except you.” And Srila Prabhupada replied, “Yes, here the mosquitoes have some respect, but in Calcutta, they make no distinctions.”

So basically, we cannot escape the miseries of material existence, and ādidaivika, miseries caused by acts of nature, like also too much heat, too much cold, earthquakes, volcanoes. I don’t know if in Pune, but in Bombay, there is so many signboards advertising volcano. The volcano is going to erupt on November 21st, that is today. Apparently, it is a movie about a volcano that erupts, and flood, drought; so many disturbances caused by acts of nature. So, we are constantly being punished by material nature, and an intelligent person will think how to become free from the punishment of material nature. A foolish person in prison will think, How can I make life in the prison better, but an intelligent person will think, How can I get out of the prison. The foolish person may bribe the superintendent of the prison so he can import some wine or some cigarettes or some magazines to enjoy life in the prison. So Durga is like the superintendent of the prison, and by worshiping Durga or her expansion Kali, one may get some facility within the material world. But what is the material world? It is just a prison house where we are forced to suffer. But Durga or her agents have no power or no authority to release us from the prison. Only the Supreme Lord Krishna has the authority or the power to release us from the prison. He can order Durga that, “This soul has surrendered unto Me, so now you release him. I pardon him, so you let him go.” So, the mahatmas are not under the control of the material nature. They are under the control of the spiritual nature.

PURPORT (continued)

And how is this effected? That is explained in the Seventh Chapter:

COMMENT

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te

PURPORT (continued)

one who surrenders unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, at once becomes freed from the control of material nature. That is the qualification.

COMMENT

Once I also asked Srila Prabhupada that how can we fight against maya, and Srila Prabhupada replied that you cannot fight against maya; maya is too powerful. You cannot defeat maya directly, but you can fight or defeat maya indirectly by surrendering to Krishna. And in the course of the discussion, Srila Prabhupada said that the way we can take shelter of Krishna and escape the influence of maya, is to loudly chant the holy names.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

PURPORT (continued)

One can become free from the control of material nature as soon as he surrenders his soul to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

COMMENT

So ātma-nivedanam himself surrender. Ātmā means the mind, it means the senses, and it means the soul. So here Srila Prabhupada says specifically we should surrender our souls. We might surrender our bodies, but not our minds, and we might even surrender our minds, but not fully surrender our souls. But here Srila Prabhupada says if we surrender our soul, then we are transferred from the control of maya, the external energy, to the control of the spiritual energy.

PURPORT (continued)

That is the preliminary formula. Being marginal potency, as soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature, he is put under the guidance of the spiritual nature. The guidance of the spiritual nature is called daivī prakṛti, divine nature. So when one is promoted in that way – by surrendering to the Supreme Personality of Godhead – one attains to the stage of great soul, mahātmā.

COMMENT

So, we are marginal energy, which means that we must be controlled either by the material nature or the spiritual nature. We are never independent. Krishna is independent, He is controller of both the material energy and the spiritual energy but we are not independent. We are by nature dependent and therefore we must come under the control of the material energy, or if we escape from the control of the material energy then we are transferred to the control of the spiritual energy. Srila Rupa Gosvami composed a very beautiful poem which Srila Prabhupada sometimes quoted about the chataka bird. The chataka bird only takes water from the cloud. The chataka bird will not take water from any other source. So in his prayer Rupa Gosvami says that just as the chataka remains under the cloud and will not take water from any other source, even though sometimes there is thunder and lightning, still he will not take water from any other source. Similarly, Rupa Gosvami prays to Lord Krishna, “I fully depend on you.” So, the purport of the verse is of course Krishna is compared to a dark monsoon cloud.

So, the devotee he will only take mercy from Krishna from the spiritual nature. He will not take mercy from the material world. So even if Krishna does not give mercy, even if He gives trouble; just like sometimes the cloud doesn’t give water in the beginning the cloud may give thunder and lightning so similarly even in the beginning if Krishna doesn’t give mercy, if He gives troubles still the devotee remains faithful to Krishna. He will not take mercy from anywhere else from the material world but he will simply wait for Lord Krishna’s mercy even if Krishna gives thunderbolts. So, we have the choice, either to come under the material nature or the spiritual nature. And of course an intelligent person who accepts the instructions of Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-gītā will surrender to Krishna and thus be placed under the internal potency not the external potency. And when one so surrenders, he becomes mahatma. Once one prominent Hindu gentleman came to meet Srila Prabhupada and he asked that India has so many mahatmas; the soil of India has been blessed by the footprints of so many mahatmas for so many ages but still India has so many problems, why? And Srila Prabhupada replied because you cannot distinguish who is a mahatma and who is not a mahatma therefore you have so many problems.

In Bombay also Srila Prabhupada had one friend named Dr. Patel and Dr. Patel used to accompany Srila Prabhupada on his morning walks on Juhu beach and he and Srila Prabhupada used to discuss so many topics. One day, Dr. Patel well he sometimes would express appreciation for impersonalists or other types of persons. Anyway Srila Prabhupada very strongly began to criticize the non-devotees the impersonalists, the non-devotees.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ

And he was calling them fools and rascals and demons but Dr. Patel became very upset because some of his worshipable guides in spiritual life were impersonalists and Srila Prabhupada was saying that they are fools, they are rascals, they are demons. He became very upset and Dr. Patel became so angry and Srila Prabhupada also reciprocated. He was also very angry and they were shouting at each other and Dr. Patel’s colleagues were telling him, “Please don’t fight with Swamiji; he is an old man, he has a heart condition.” And they just they were just shouting at each other until finally Dr. Patel’s friends forcibly pulled him away. Then the next morning Dr. Patel didn’t come. Every morning when Srila Prabhupada was in Bombay Dr. Patel would come and accompany him on the morning walk but he didn’t come. And Srila Prabhupada said also now no more discussion we will just read from the Kṛṣṇa book, no more discussion. But there was some deep attraction between Dr. Patel and Srila Prabhupada. So although they avoided each other in the beginning but in the end, when they were walking in opposite directions and came close to each other Dr. Patel just ran to Srila Prabhupada and offered his obeisances at Srila Prabhupada’s feet. And he said to Srila Prabhupada, “I am sorry about our argument but from my childhood I have been taught to respect all the accredited saints of India.” And Srila Prabhupada replied, “And I have been taught to say who is a saint and who is not a saint.” So here is the real definition of mahatma. He is under the divine energy how he has come under the divine energy; by surrendering to Krishna, so one who has surrendered to Krishna he can be called mahatma

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

After many lifetimes of acquiring knowledge one who actually is wise surrenders unto Krishna, knowing Him to be the cause of all causes and all that be. Such a great soul, mahatma is very very rare.

PURPORT (continued)

The mahātmā does not divert his attention to anything outside Kṛṣṇa, because he knows perfectly well that Kṛṣṇa is the original Supreme Person, the cause of all causes.

COMMENT

Actually the present verse 9.13 and the other verse which is 7.19 very closely parallel each other because the earlier verse says, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, that Krishna is the cause of all causes and all that be and therefore the mahatma surrenders unto Him. And here Lord Krishna says almost the same thing; jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam, that the mahatma knows that Krishna is original and inexhaustible. He is the origin of all that be and therefore the mahatma surrenders unto Krishna. So the surrender of the mahatma is based on knowledge, jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, jñānavān—the surrender of the mahatma is based on knowledge not sentiment as persons without knowledge misunderstand or mistake.

PURPORT (continued)

There is no doubt about it. Such a mahātmā, or great soul, develops through association with other mahātmās, pure devotees.

COMMENT

So, how does one become a mahatma? One becomes a mahatma by association with other mahatmas. How does one become a drunkard? By associating with drinkers. Every child is innocent but how does a child begin to smoke cigarettes? How does a child begin to drink liquor? By association. He will associate with someone who smokes and the person will say, “Hey, I have a cigarette that is really good; have a drink, it will give you a good feeling.” How does somebody become a thief? He becomes a thief by association. They will say, “Oh boy, you can make a lot of money without much work if you become a thief. One of our devotees in Bombay was telling me how evolved the stealing in Bombay is. The devotee wanted to buy a washing machine or some appliance for the household. So she had a house servant and when she brought home the washing machine the house servant asked, “How much did you pay for it?” So the housewife said some amount. So the house servant said “Oh you should have told me; I could have gotten it for you at a fraction of the cost I could have gotten it for one-third of the cost.” So the housewife asked how, and the servant lady said that well some of her friends are professional thieves and whatever you want you just tell them and they put it on the list. And then they specifically go and steal from the houses the items that are on the list that the customers want. So it is a very sophisticated profession. So how does one get into that profession? By association.

So, similarly how does one become Krishna conscious; how does one become mahatma? By association with mahatma in Krishna consciousness. So we learn everything by association. So by association, we can also learn how to surrender to Krishna and become free from the prison house of material energy. And therefore Srila Prabhupada formed the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to give people the chance to associate with mahatmas. And by their association, in turn to become mahatmas who are surrendered to Krishna. So, the Krishna consciousness movement is very important because by association with the devotees in ISKCON, people can learn to surrender to Krishna and become real mahatmas.

PURPORT (continued)

Pure devotees are not even attracted by Kṛṣṇa’s other features, such as the four-armed Mahā-viṣṇu. 

COMMENT

bhajanty ananya-manaso, their minds are not diverted to anything else; not even to other forms of the Lord, but they concentrate purely on the original form of Krishna.

PURPORT (continued)

They are simply attracted by the two-armed form of Kṛṣṇa. They are not attracted to other features of Kṛṣṇa, nor are they concerned with any form of a demigod or of a human being. They meditate only upon Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are always engaged in the unswerving service of the Lord in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

COMMENT

They always chant the holy names of Krishna.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

So are there any questions or comments?

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Once one disciple had the idea of compiling a book about all the cheaters and he wanted to distribute it especially to the young people in America then. But Srila Prabhupada said we should not do so. And the Bhāgavatam also says the same thing, that the cheaters are like fireflies. So, in the darkness of the age of Kali, they appear very brilliant. But when the sun of Lord Chaitanya movement rises, then the fireflies will disappear. So instead of trying to fight against the fireflies, we should just work to establish the sun of Lord Chaitanya movement and then automatically the fireflies of bogus gurus and Bhagavān will disappear. But if someone is close to us and someone brings up some person who is bogus, we must speak the truth for the benefit of the person. Even then, we may be careful how we do it. Srila Prabhupada gave the advice that if someone asks about some so and so person, first we should say “Who?” Like we never even heard of the person, and then they will repeat the name of the person. And then we say, “What does he say?” Then when the person presents the philosophy, we can deal with the philosophy and not the personality. And when we deal with the philosophy we just compare it to Bhagavad-gītā and if the philosophy agrees with Bhagavad-gītā we accept it and if it differs from Bhagavad-gītā, how can we accept it. And even Srila Prabhupada so many times said, “I am not saying Krishna is saying,” even with Dr. Patel. “I am not saying fool and rascal. Krishna is saying fool and rascal. I am just repeating; that is my business. I have to repeat Krishna’s message. You may like it or you may not like it but my business is to repeat Krishna’s message.”

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yes, he says that one develops bad habits by association. So what if someone settles in Vrindavan and associates with residents of Vrindavan who have bad habits?

Well Lord Chaitanya advised one devotee who was about to go to Vrindavan that, “Don’t associate intimately with the vrajavāsī. You should respect them but don’t associate intimately with them because their ways are different.”

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Well it depends on what you mean by vrajavāsī. The real vrajavāsī is our Nanda Maharaja, Mother Yasoda, the cowherd boys, the calf, the cows, the gopīs, the peacocks; those are the real vrajavāsīs. I don’t think we could say that someone who superficially lives in Vrindavan and smokes bidis and has illicit connection with women is a real vrajavāsī, and I don’t think we can say that they are higher than a devotee who chants sixteen rounds and follows the four principles. But the real residents of Vrindavan, the eternal residence of Vrindavan, they are our guides. They are our examples; we want to follow them. Yes

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: He says we can surrender our bodies by engaging our senses in the service of the Lord and we can engage our mind by thinking of the Lord, but how do we surrender our souls?

Well when we realize that the soul is part and parcel of Krishna or the Supreme Soul, and we do not think of ourselves that we have any independent existence outside Krishna, then that is surrendering our soul. In other words, we have to give up our false ego. This is my body; I am surrendering my body to Krishna. This is my mind; I am surrendering my mind to Krishna. But who is the I? The ‘I’ is also part and parcel of Krishna. So when Bali Maharaja surrendered his possessions and his body to Krishna, still he was arrested and he was criticized by his own wife that, “You think you have surrendered something to Krishna?” That means you think you were the proprietor; how you were the proprietor. She condemned him for the mentality of being the proprietor and giving in charity to the Lord. If we think we possess something to give in charity to the Lord, then we are still in the false idea that we have some separate existence from the Lord but when we think of ourselves as inseparable from the Lord when we think of our lives as inseparable from the Lord’s service then we have surrendered our soul, we have given up our false egos.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: He says that the devotee does not want to take mercy from the material world. He only wants to take mercy from Krishna but Krishna’s mercy may come through some other persons or through the material nature.

Well yes, but then we are not we are not taking mercy from the material world we are taking mercy from Krishna. Now how to distinguish as you ask. If the material nature offers some facility and we use the facility in Krishna’s service, we can take it as the mercy of Krishna. But if the material nature offers some facility and we use the facility for sense gratification, then we must conclude that the facility was offered by maya. Sometimes immature devotees think that if some object of sense gratification comes without the devotee making any effort, then the object is being sent by Krishna for the devotee to enjoy. But that is not our philosophy; it is not our philosophy.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: She says that someone asked the question that Lord Shiva is the greatest Vaishnava, so why can’t they worship Lord Shiva just like we worship our acharyas.

Yes, Lord Shiva is Vaishnava he is acharya also but we should worship the acharyas in the prescribed way. Just like we are coming in brahma-sampradāya there are four sampradāya: Brahma sampradāya, Rudra sampradāya, Kumara sampradāya and Sri sampradāya. So we are coming in Brahma sampradāya but we do not worship Brahma directly. We worship all the previous acharyas through the present acharya. So if your friend wants to be connected with the Rudra sampradāya, then she should be connected with the present representative of the disciplic succession from Lord Shiva. And by following the instructions of the disciplic succession and rendering service to the disciplic succession, then her service will go to Shiva and ultimately to Krishna. But we cannot jump over the immediate acharyas to approach the past acharyas, even if we take Lord Shiva as acharya. Most persons worship Lord Shiva for material gain, but if one worships Lord Shiva for the sake of spiritual advancement in Krishna consciousness then one should follow the prescribed methods for making advancement in Krishna consciousness. And that is given by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to Rupa Gosvami and through the disciplic succession to us. So she really wants to please Lord Shiva and she should chant the holy name of Krishna and follow the prescribed methods of devotional service and Lord Shiva will be happy.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Basically you said what he said, but he said that they are first-class prisoners and they enjoy all the comforts in the prison so there is no difference for them to be in the prison or outside the prison.

But actually there is a difference because in the prison their movements are restricted, they are not free. So even first-class prisoners they will want to come out of the prison. No prisoner will say that, “I want to stay in the prison,” because in the prison his movements are restricted his freedom is restricted. So we are also restricted in the material world. We are not free as long as we are in the material world. But we want to be free, and especially we want to be free from repeated birth, disease, old age, and death. So no one in the prison house of material existence can be free from the repeated cycle of birth, disease, old age, and death. So someone may artificially say that, “I am enjoying material life; what is wrong with material life?” But if you ask the person, “Do you like disease?” “No.” “Do you like old age?” “No.” “Do you like death?” “No.” But that is material existence, so you don’t like it. So all the happiness or so-called happiness in the material world you can experience in the spiritual world more without any of the miseries.

One of the problems is that that many persons have an impersonal concept of spiritual life. They think spiritual life means you have to merge and become one with God, and there is no variety. But variety is the mother of enjoyment; we cannot enjoy without variety. So because people have an impersonal idea of spiritual life they think, What is spiritual life; emerge and become one with some light I would rather enjoy the world and have friends and go places and do things. They don’t know that in the spiritual world you can also have friends and go places and do things. But in the spiritual everything is eternal full of knowledge and full of bliss, whereas in the material world everything is temporary full of misery and full of ignorance. Therefore Srila Prabhupada said that the impersonal philosophy of Shankaracharya was meant to accelerate Kali-yuga. Because when people get impersonal ideas of spiritual life they think, There is no fun in spiritual life; why should I take to spiritual life? I would rather have fun in the material world. And fun in the material world means basically sex life. So by unrestricted sex life or uncontrolled sex life, they produce unwanted children. And when unwanted children populate the world it becomes a hellish condition—Kali-yuga. So the philosophy of Shankaracharya actually hastened the manifestation of Kali-yuga.

There was one American humorist named Mark Twain. So he said that he prefers heaven for the climate but hell for the company, because he thought all of his friends will be in hell doing all the things they used to do. So although he would prefer the climate in heaven, he would prefer the company in hell.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: People say that if we didn’t have to suffer miseries we would not be able to appreciate happiness.

Well do you know what Srila Prabhupada’s answer is? “Then I will kick you in the face with my boots and when I stop kicking you, you will feel happy.” You should tell them, “If that is your philosophy, I will beat you on the head with a stick and when I stop beating you, you will feel happy.” No one will agree; just artificially they are saying. They actually don’t like suffering but artificially they are saying because they are afraid that if you tell them that the way to get out of suffering is to give up sense gratification, which they don’t want to do, then they say “Oh we don’t mind the suffering,” but they do. They just don’t want to give up sense gratification. They don’t realize that a diseased person is suffering. Now to be cured of the disease he may have to accept some restrictions. He may have to accept some treatment. But in the end when he is cured of the disease he will enjoy much more. So it is better to accept some austerity for the sake of being cured of the disease. When one is cured of the disease, then he can enjoy millions and trillions of times more than the so-called pleasure of the diseased person which is full of pain.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yes what is the method of surrender or what is the definition of surrender? Do you know what is the definition of surrender? Well in general terms the definition of surrender is to do what the other person says. If there is a war between two parties and one side surrenders unconditionally, it means he will do whatever the other party says. So surrender to Krishna means that we do whatever Krishna tells us to do. We stop fighting with Krishna and we surrender; we do whatever He tells us to do; man-manā bhava mad-bhakto—always think of Krishna and become His devotee; mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru—worship Krishna and offer obeisances to Him. Now man-manā—always think of Krishna is the basic principle of vaidhi-bhakti; to always remember Krishna never forget Him. So there is a whole system. Krishna says man-manā, that is all; always think of me. And Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu has detailed the whole system how to always remember Krishna never forget him; mad-bhakta become Krishna’s devotee. Again there is a whole system to become Krishna’s devotee, so we have to study the methods. The methods are given preliminarily in Bhagavad-gītā but the actual process of how to become Krishna’s devotee and always think of Him is given in The Nectar of Devotion

Question: Apart from meaning all attractive what does Krishna means?

Giriraj Swami: Well what does all attractive mean?

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yes, Bhagavān. Bhagavān means one who is full in all opulences. So we are attracted by opulences just like if someone is very beautiful we are attracted; if someone is very intelligent we are attracted; if someone is very famous we are attracted; if someone is very powerful or influential we are attracted; and if someone is very renounced we are also attracted. So Krishna is full in all opulences and therefore we are attracted to Him. But all attractive means every attractive quality is in Krishna so how can there be anything beyond Krishna, beyond the name Krishna or beyond the definition of Krishna. It cannot be anything in Krishna which is not attractive and there cannot be anything which is attractive which is not in Krishna; so Krishna is all attractive all encompassing

yes, this person had his hand up first yes

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Yes, Krishna is the origin of the material and spiritual worlds. He is the controller of the material and spiritual energies. So he is saying why can’t the material world help us to reach Krishna?

It can. If we see the material energy as Krishna’s energy and we use it in Krishna’s service, it can help us approach Krishna. Just like money; in the material world people say money is the root of all evil. But if money is engaged in Krishna’s service it is not evil, it is good. So anything material engaged in Krishna’s service becomes spiritual. So we can use the material energy to approach Krishna

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya—Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is Krishna Himself, so all of the devotees in the line from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu worship both Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Radha-Krishna. So we don’t distinguish between Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Krishna. But when Lord Chaitanya preached, he preached the worship of Krishna. And when he met Vyenkata Bhatta in south India, Vyenkata Bhatta was a worshiper of Lakshmi-Narayana. And somehow he had the idea that the worship of Lakshmi-Narayana was superior to the worship of Radha-Krishna. So Lord Chaitanya asked him that “Your lord is the master of Vaikuntha and my Lord is just a cowherd boy, but why is it that Lakshmi who is the goddess of fortune in Vaikuntha underwent austerities to get the association of my Lord in Vrindavan?” So there was some discussion but the conclusion of the discussion was that although Krishna and Narayana are the same in substance, but in transcendental mellows there is more reciprocation with Krishna than with Narayana. And Lord Chaitanya quoted the example of the gopīs. When the gopīs were dancing with Krishna in rāsa-līlā, Krishna went away from the circle of the rasa dance and He hid in the bushes near Govardhana Hill. So the gopīs who were searching for Krishna saw Him hiding in the bushes and they came like a battalion of soldiers to capture Him. So Lord Krishna immediately stood up and He manifested His four arm form as Narayana and the gopīs looked at each other and they said “Oh this is not Krishna this is Lord Narayana.” And then they offered respects, “Oh Lord Narayana we are looking for Krishna can you tell us where Krishna is?” So they were not attracted even to the four-armed form of Narayana they were only interested in Krishna

So there is no example of any gopī being attracted to Krishna giving up the worship of Krishna to accept the worship of Narayana. But the opposite is true that Lakshmi devi herself gave up the worship of Lord Narayana and performed austerities to get the association of Krishna. So even though in terms of tattva there is no difference between Krishna and Narayana, but in terms of rasa there is chance for reciprocation with Krishna which is not possible with Lord Narayana. And therefore devotees who are attracted to Lord Krishna in some of the Vrindavan mellows, they are not interested in Lord Narayana unless he can help them find Krishna.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: But Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was always meditating on the two-handed form of Krishna. So if one meditates on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu deeply he will come to meditate on Krishna also; you cannot separate the two. It is said that if one enters into the Ganges in Navadvipa dhāma he will come up in the Yamuna in Vrindavan dhāma. In other words, by the mercy of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu one will obtain the service of Krishna. So one cannot be a true devotee of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu without also being a devotee of Lord Krishna. And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was always chanting,

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

So to worship Chaitanya Mahaprabhu means to chant Hare Krishna; so where is the question of not worshiping Krishna if one worships Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. So now we will worship Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by chanting the holy names of Krishna.