Giriraj Swami Interview with Gurudas

Mr. Balu: [inaudible] That is one of the richest temples and there a black man like [inaudible]. I told him I am not a [inaudible]. I love Krishna. Actually I am a Smarta by birth. Do you think Swamiji will not know you? 

[inaudible]

Gurudas: Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, so yes, this is regarding registering the society in Bombay and so we had the basics of the [Aravinda] society and then we put our own stuff in. But then we said one, we even had the founder-acharya as A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. But then there was this thing that the founder-acharya shall full legal power and because the name was left out and legally Prabhupada was pointing out that if the name is left out, then anybody’s name could be substituted even though it attributed to the founder-acharya just two sentences up. It is a legal point and a point of personalism because if you do not mention the name again it is like impersonal. So that was my overlooking and the lawyer overlooked it. So Prabhupada found it and he said, “Who is the founder-acharya? Who shall have veto power, you?” He said, “You?” Then he said, ”Brahmananda?” So I felt awful. But the interesting thing is that he kept that up. He never gave me the silent treatment ever before that and I don’t remember again and it was like for three days. He would come in around the corner and I would come out in front of the corner to see if I could catch him and he would still not be able to look. He was able to be transcendental and miss looking at me. I mean I would surprise him and he was able to do it for three days. He would be walking here and I would jump out. So then I came to him crying and then Jamuna had the sauce of something about pomegranate juice or something. So I said, “Prabhupada I really did not mean to [be] the founder-acharya, I did not mean to do that.” He said, “I know but I could think that because of that.” He really let me know, he said, “I know that you did not mean anything or want to be that but I could think that.” 

So then I had to get it amended. Oh yes, well this guy wanted [bhaksis]. It was not the lawyer; it was the heavy guy in the clerk’s office. I happened to meet with this guy, Mr. Cane, who was the head of the CID in Bombay, that day. So I said to the guy, I said, “[Ether], this is the amendment.” We had this Board, Mr Singani or somebody like that, some board of people so I had to get them to amend that. So I got it amended and then the man wanted bucks, he wanted a bribe and I said, “I just came with the head of the CID and I am going to tell him that either you don’t know your job or you are ignorant or you are just wanting a bribe. So which one do you want in the newspaper tonight?” So the guy said, “I will sign it, I will sign it,” because he was also seeing that I was getting red and angry, so he said, “I will sign it, I will sign it.” 

I brought it to Prabhupada. Oh yes, then when I brought it to Prabhupada, that is when he said, “I could think that. I didn’t think you. . .” Yes, I brought it to Prabhupada amended, cried all over the sheet of paper. “I didn’t mean to do it Prabhupada.” He said, “I know you did not mean to do it but I could think that.” And so everybody knew what was going on. It is a small town. I probably told you something maybe, I don’t know.

Giriraj Swami: Oh what I remember is Jamuna and I were in the dining hall of the hotel and you came out of the room which Srila Prabhupada [used] and you were like totally shaken, I mean totally shaken. I had never seen you like that before. And you just told us what happened. I don’t remember exactly if she got up and sort of walked away to be with you alone first for a few minutes or whether you told us both directly while we were sitting there. But I will never forget seeing your expression when you came down. We were sitting and Prabhupada was there, upstairs, and we were happy. And I heard it all from you and you could not understand why Srila Prabhupada was saying that you wanted to be the founder-acharya. To your knowledge you didn’t.

Gurudas: I still don’t.

Giriraj Swami: But you know he said it and it is like you were just struggling to understand why he said it because you had faith in his words but to your knowledge you really didn’t want to be. And it was like one of the heaviest experiences I ever had in Krishna consciousness and I have told this story as I recalled it twice. There was a time when I felt that devotees were, not that I was saying you did definitely, I wasn’t saying that you did, but there was a time when I felt devotees were trying to take Prabhupada’s position.

Gurudas: Well there was an instance in New Vrindavan before then and that is why he said Brahmananda. Did you know about that?

Giriraj Swami: When they said that Prabhupada was God?

Gurudas: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: Where you there?

Gurudas: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: You were there? What happened?

Gurudas: Well I was not officially GBC but Shyamasundara was GBC of Amsterdam and for some reason we came from Europe to this, it was like our first

Giriraj Swami: Oh maybe that was when. I remember once you passed through Boston, was that on the way from Europe?

Gurudas: Could have been Probably. It was those days. It wasn’t on the way to London. Of course we just went to Montreal, New York, so we probably did.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. No, it was on the way, you had, it was on the way back because I remember the whole temple was buzzing with excitement. Guru dasa is coming from London and it was a big thing but do you remember what happened?

Gurudas: In Boston?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: I remember we went to the Commons and we chanted. 

Giriraj Swami: How long were you there?

Gurudas: At the Commons? In Boston? Very short. Not too long.

Giriraj Swami: I just remembered it was like. . .

Gurudas: But what happened?

Giriraj Swami: I actually remember the excitement and anticipation of your visit. Then I remember you came and I remember seeing you. You were big. And I was like new. So I’d never got to get close to the big devotees.

Gurudas: We must qualify this. In those days if a leaf moved near the temple in Boston, it was exciting so big deal. Giriraj has no sense of humor which now he does and when he came on the plane it was like he was afraid to look out the window because maya was out the window from his Boston by the book training. And in the airplane, it was as World War II airplane, you could see the pilot through this like [little rag] that was blowing. There were animals braying, bleating, people throwing up in the aisles, so then I said, “Well you may think that there is maya out there but look what is going on in here?” 

Yes. So we went to that meeting. It was Brahmananda and Visnujana pulled in to it and I think Subal and Gargamuni. They said Prabhupada’s God and the philosophical aspect was when Prabhupada heard it in Japan, he was in Japan that “If I am God then the people will take over and be God,” and that is not our philosophy anyway. So we had a Nectar of Devotion and on page fifty-nine was showing that the guru is representative of God. I remember Bhagavān and Hayagriva and me and someone else were back to back like samurai. We were back to back because we were so feeling threatened because what was going on before in those days, it really was personal because there weren’t things hidden. So if anybody was leaving or anybody was having a difference of opinion or anything like that, it was evident that there started to be factions there in New Vrindavan. And then Prabhupada sent word that they should go out and preach.

We went to Detroit and I remember there that Rupanuga was there, Bhagavān. And then they said, “There is the south, there is the west, there is the east and there is north” and they went south. And they had to leave and preach outside the society for a while.

Giriraj Swami: I remember hearing, you know we were hearing all the news in Boston. I remember hearing they went to Detroit and that Bhagavān had dealt very strongly with them. 

Gurudas: And I saw Bhagavān Sunday and I, this is the second year in a row that I did not recognize him. It was so funny. I did not know he had blond hair because I never saw his hair before and it was shaved. You can’t tell anything. So last year he came up and said, “Oh we got to talk and everything,” and I, it is like a lot people recognize me and I am not sure who they are so. I said, “Yes yes,” but I wasn’t. And it was just like a month ago I called him up and said, “Are you all right?”  You know, this and that and he sent me about fifty pages of e-mail and said we’ve got to talk when you get up here and then this is again last year and Cindy recognized and said, “That is Mañjarī’s father right?” And I said, “No,” and then after this morning I realized, “Oh no, this is the second year I did not really recognize him. I was probably nice to him but I, recently

Giriraj Swami: You did not know exactly you he was.

Gurudas: Yes. 

Giriraj Swami: I did not see him. I have met him many times in LA and spoken with him in the last two years but I did not meet him at the Ratha-yatra although I heard he was there. Somehow I did not meet him at the Ratha-yatra. 

Gurudas: Well fortunately Mañjarī called him on the telephone and we spoke and he’ll just do something around here so we are going to meet some time. I did not know him that well.

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: He was in New York; we were in India. I think he is great for your common sense. You have to have common sense in India as well as devotion.

Giriraj Swami: I mean the next time I met you was in Belgium. I mean I didn’t really meet you when you passed through Boston but I saw you and of course I heard about you. And then we heard about the Radha-Krishna temple record and you know like, you know all the devotees were terribly excited. Especially Srila Prabhupada was so enlivened by it and we heard how pleased Srila Prabhupada was and that he said make like on the next one they can use Indian instruments. Then we got, in those days there were no little cassette players like now. There were like big reel to reel phonograph record. So I think we got a phonograph record and we all listened with great anticipation and expectation in the temple and then we were hearing it. I forget it actually what was what but like number one in Japan, Yugoslavia, number three in England or number seven in England.

Gurudas: It was pretty phenomenal for a first record. It was number nine in England. Well it depends on what poll but that is phenomenal. And number three in Czechoslovakia. It reached a lot of people and it was interesting because people did not how to treat us because we were not a regular rock band. And we would say it too. We would say, “We are not a rock group and then we went travelling. We had special things in our contract like no meat, or anything like that. I could not let the brahmacharis go to the night clubs. So Isana used to come with his trumpet and people did not know what to because they couldn’t, there was one groupie who used to hang out in front of Apple records and then she would hang out in front of the temple and we would invite her in. And she sort of became a devotee. She was in a play here in England and so we, and at the end of it they invite the audience to do something so we used to chant in front of it. So one night we just went in the theatre and then on the stage we chanted too when it was that time. Somebody was signaling me, oh it was her, she came out and signaled us but by that time it was too late. People were trying to figure us out because we would go on tour and stuff and then when we did our program that we were not a rock group and this is what we are and, sometimes people would ride back to the temple. I always left three or four spaces in the Krishna van for anybody who wanted a ride back to London with us.

So Belgium, so that is when we hooked up for the flight to India.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I mean you all were legends, you know. Shyamasundara and Malati, you and Jamuna.

Gurudas: That is in their own minds.

Giriraj Swami: I mean I walked in, I don’t exactly remember the details. We landed somewhere, then we were taken to a hotel room where the four of you were. There was some Indian man.

Gurudas: An Indian man in India []

Giriraj Swami: No in Belgium.

Gurudas: Oh yes. He was the man who was running the airlines, Basco Airlines (Brothers Airlines Service Corporation) and he was the man who, he was a godbrother.

Giriraj Swami: So we were told to get our flights to Belgium.

Gurudas: Yes, because that was the starting of point from Basco Airlines.

Giriraj Swami: Was it Brussels or Antwerp?

Gurudas: Brussels.

Giriraj Swami: Brussels. And then I don’t know who met us. It was all very, I have images of it but I don’t remember how it all fits together.

Gurudas: We were in a hotel room and distributing our stuff.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, when I came to the hotel room then it got solidified in my mind. I remember I was feeling the atmosphere was like so thick with spiritual, with Prabhupada actually, with Prabhupada. I remember you were sitting, the devotees were like sitting on chairs and sofas and from the day I joined I never saw a devotee sit on a chair or sofa. So I was wondering is this all right? But at the same time the atmosphere was so thick, I mean it was palpable, the absorption and Srila Prabhupada and the surrender to Srila Prabhupada, but I thought it couldn’t be that bad because I have never felt an atmosphere like this. And that was the first time I was introduced to these great devotees who did things and acted in ways that I had never seen in Boston, that were like more in a sense more normal in terms of what people in the west do. And then there was a plane ride, I also remember that. We were at the back of the plane, weren’t we? Anyway what I remembered was we were at the back. Maybe I went to the back to get away from. . .

Gurudas: It was not that large a plane.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, and I remember we ate something on the way and afterwards Jamuna washed her hands and after washing her hands she sprinkled some water on her feet, on the soles of her feet. That appealed to me as being very proper, very. So that stuck with me. From then on whenever I washed my hands after taking prasāda I would sprinkle water on my feet.

Kunti: Now we know where the idea is from.

Gurudas: That is nice. Where did you go. Did you stay in Bombay with us when you got to India?

Giriraj Swami: Well wait let’s go one step at a time.

Gurudas: Because I do have some film of us in Egypt.

Giriraj Swami: You have film of us in Egypt?

Gurudas: Remember, well let me hear your stuff at the time and then I will. . .

Giriraj Swami: Well I remembered us being at the back of the plane. I remember like being very excited about being with you all and going to India but at the same time I was very fixed in my determination to hear and chant. I even had a talk with a devotee in Boston when we were in Glenville avenue. And he also said he never goes out alone even on the street to go to the store because he is afraid that if he is alone he might look at a billboard or something might affect him. So and I used to chant loudly, I couldn’t really hear much then I chanted loudly. Then I found that my jumping up and down I was able to hear better.

Gurudas: Which was what he was doing in the middle of the airplane, which I guess, I can remember the jumping up and down.

Giriraj Swami: Yes and when Satsvarupa Maharaja would chant he was also very intense. Intent and intense and he would have his hand in the bead bag and chant, “Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

Gurudas: And sometimes his other hand was behind his back. He would sometimes shake. And he would put his other hand behind his back.

Giriraj Swami: So I tried to be absorbed in the chanting. It was a big thing going out of the temple for anything besides.

Gurudas: Did you know why you were picked? Did you decide to go to India? Where you picked?

Giriraj Swami: I was picked.

Gurudas: Yes, the crème de la crème of the United States was being sent by Prabhupada. He wanted, before they sent all the precis’s to India, the first second wave was like the best from the temple. We need some really. . .

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is what we heard like after the temple president. So it was like me from Boston and [] from New York. . .

Gurudas: How many devotees were in Boston at that time?

Giriraj Swami: Well by then the Press had come so it was one of the main temples in ISKCON. Actually at that time after LA, Boston was like the biggest temple. We had a big house and with the press we had a lot of devotees. And then what I remembered, see I was so oblivious, I remember at the airport, yes, we got to Cairo. We came down and I just remember I was chanting and I remember in the airport I was jumping up and down and chanting and I just did not want to be in maya. And then we continued back up into the airplane. So I was not very conscious of what was happening.

Gurudas: You were fortunate. You did protect yourself from maya because what was happening in the world and I have a film of this that Yadubara recently gave me and then the second part is the London Ratha-yatra at Trafalgar Square but this was on the way to India. The devotees were and especially remember Giriraj jumping up and down were chanting like in between the plane and the place in the airport where you would go. And that fine except it was the day after the president Nasser was assassinated or died. I think he was assassinated. The country was in complete chaos.

Now I am photographing with a second grade little camera here and all the devotees were chanting. Isn’t that nice in Cairo airport and suddenly I see soldiers running at the devotees with fixed bayonets because they’re out there and they’re jumping up and down. And so suddenly the film stops abruptly and I had the intelligence to head them off and say, “They’re singing the praises of President Nasser,” so then they suddenly became like the guards for us. Jumping up and down. Yes oblivious, and nearly getting killed and going back into the airplane, everything is fine. And I made Rsikumar give away his winter coat to some Arabian person. His mother gave him. I said,” You are not going to need this in India.”

So you stayed in Bombay? Do you remember? And then?

Giriraj Swami: Alright, so then we took the flight from Cairo to Bombay.

Gurudas: And I think we stopped in Aiden too.

Giriraj Swami: I vaguely remembered another stop. I actually did remember another stop vaguely. Yes, then Kailash Sekseria greeted us at the airport with all the Ambassador cars. He took us to his house and we were there for about two weeks. Oh I remember it all now. I remember it all. Then there were so many things that we never did in Boston, like the elevator. I wouldn’t ride the elevator because I thought it was a compromise. I would take the stairs because we were staying on the ground and we would take prasāda on the third floor. I mean there were the cashews and the almonds and the things that I thought we were not supposed to indulge in. But I remember that was one night, I forget what precipitated it but that was sort of like the turning point in our relationship. I came into your room. You and Jamuna were there and I was feeling very miserable about myself. I was saying how bad I felt about myself and how good you were and what I should do. Then you said that the way I felt about myself was the way you feel about yourself and the way I felt about you was the way you feel about me. And I mean it was, I think it was the most amazing experience I have ever had until then in terms of personal exchange with a devotee. Both you and Jamuna were like very enlivened and animated which I took as an indication of your Krishna consciousness, not as an indication of me. But the way you responded, I felt like I was drawn in, I felt I was drawn in into your confidence or your, not confidence, drawn into your association, accepted in your association as a person. Then after that it was always special whenever anything had to do with you and Jamuna or me with you and Jamuna. Everything was very special and very magical, mystical.

Gurudas: And I felt that way about you. I was just saying that on the way over. You, Bharadraj, some special people who had these aspects of devotion that were not show bottle and they were very, not necessarily, they were [dasas] and intelligent, and you are such an intelligent preacher too.

Giriraj Swami: I remember one thing at that time. My silence on what you just said does not mean I agree but I just wanted to just, intent on the next thing. So my silence does not mean agreement here. But since I thought of it, I thought I would mention that at the time I basically thought of every devotee as being absolute, although the term wasn’t in my mind at the time, but in retrospect I saw every devotee as absolute. The one thing I could not quite understand that I was trying to adjust in my mind was Tamal Krishna Goswami and his temper. And I remember I asked you and then I started to open my mind to you and present my doubts and questions to you. And you said something like, I don’t remember the words, but the gist of it was that you didn’t really get on all that well with his bad temper. And that was the first time that anyone had said anything to me, no there was one other time in Boston but that was a little different. But it was the first time that anyone said anything to me that sort of indicated that everything. . . [end of tape]

Guruddas: . . .Because I would break his manipulation and he said, “Are you going to bring all your justice stuff?” And I said, “Are you going to bring your injustice stuff?” He said, “You don’t have to bring it, don’t bring your injustice stuff.” He actually banned me from the meeting one time because he knew that I would not agree with what he. But he was like my, we introduced him, we used to feed him and show him recordings and go up to Morning Star ranch. I went up to the ranch he lived on and he told me the story, so I came here with two women and lots of money. Then I lived in a tree and all that stuff. Yes, Morning Star ranch. Lou Gottlieb, he was a folk singer and we went there with Prabhupada one time. Madhudvisa came from that, Revatinandan, Visnujana, and Tamal.

Giriraj Swami: So then, where you going to say something?

Gurudas: I was going to say that there was a point about that Kailash Sekseria that you were actually intuitive because this guy, I forget his name, who was a friend of Kailash Sekseria, came from Calcutta and started criticizing us. And it was not our fault because he said, “Are these devotees or are they princes?” What happened was we went out in the [supper] Kalbadevi I believe it was of Bombay, having wonderful kirtans. We were sweating like anything.

Giriraj Swami: I remember when we went, we went on Princess street to Kalbadevi like old Bombay, yes.

Gurudas: Princess street, yes, that was the name of it. And we were just having kirtan, doing kirtan, singing, and suddenly Kailash’s assistant servants whatever, they showed up. They might have even been in delivery costume. I forget, but it was outrageous. They had silver urns of nimbu pani. So it is like we were chanting suddenly and then they’ll like, “You want some?” So it was like oh this is the western style, that is the Hare Krishna movement that I wanted to join. The pandals and the silver urns. And then we got raw almonds and cashews and this guy really, we liked it.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, he laid it on. The desserts and all this high class burfi, rasagullā, gullab jamans. Every meal was a feast. And we were so austere in Boston. I did not even know we were being austere. I thought that was just the way Krishna consciousness was. But there was a time, I don’t know, we heard that it came from Prabhupada where we were allowed like two slices of apple, I forget how many chickpeas, between four and seven. Definitely I know, it was not more than seven because I liked them.

Gurudas: That was my joke.

Giriraj Swami: It was like really down to the milligram. And then like every meal had puris and we were told that Prabhupada said that during the week you should just have like, I forget what they said, [pukhi] and [sukhi] or something. Yes, that there are two categories of food: pukhi and sukhi. And sukhi meant without ghee and you have that six days a week and then pukhi you have once a week on Sunday. And at Kailash Sekseria, like every day it was pukhi. And the sweets.

Gurudas: There were some things sometimes I think there were things that we had not even tasted before too.

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: Well it was even opulent for the San Francisco temple even though we didn’t go through all of that. Nobody bothered to tell us that Prabhupada said that, which was fine especially with Jamuna and Malati there as cooks, etcetera. But my joke about the Boston temple was their iṣṭa-goṣṭhī was to decide how the chickpea would be split up between Giriraj, Jadurani, and Satsvarupa, [], and that was my joke. But it is not too far off that you were allowed seven. So it was based on some reality.

Giriraj Swami: And maybe like a little slice of ginger. A lot like a small bowl of hot cereal with milk. I forget, a third of a banana. It was like, every morning it was the same. It was according to the specification. We thought it came from Prabhupada. 

Gurudas: Well it might have even at some time.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, it might have, I don’t even doubt that. We followed very rigidly.

Gurudas: And the thing is that there can be the same thing with a different perspective and followed a different way and somebody can say “Prabhupada said” with this agenda. So it is like he said that sometimes you have realized it yourself and then go on and if you don’t then don’t go on. But 

Giriraj Swami: There was another thing that Prabhupada had said. Either you should remain silent during prasāda or talk about Krishna. And so the ones who could really talk about Krishna was Satsvarupa and Jadurani. And Satsvarupa was transcribing the tapes with Kṛṣṇa book so he would tell the pastimes of Krishna that he would transcribe. So meeting you all was the first time I had heard, so to speak, normal conversation among devotees. And when people came to the temple we would also preach to them very much, I mean we would talk here and there and just as quickly as possible we would bring them to the point of the philosophy. And I was so impressed with the way you dealt with people, how you actually made friends with people. You would joke with them and you took prasāda with them and you talked to them as a person. And I could see how people got attached to you in India. I was very impressed. And then when they were attached to you, they would help you in service. But back to

Gurudas: Well actually I liked the rule of talking about Krishna or silence. And we did not do it much but I liked it from Prabhupada because Prabhupada would make friends with people like that. This man was there telling about his factory and Prabhupada wanted to know how a bucket was made. And this man told him and Prabhupada turned it into a Krishna consciousness analogy from a bucket. And so since I saw Prabhupada was so good at that and it happened to be during prasādam and this and that, that he would, what I saw that Prabhupada was genuinely interested in people. And unless they were really obnoxious or whatever, he would listen to them for a while and then turn it at the right time or they would start out if somebody very pious was there. So that is what I did too. I would listen or be interested in them first as a person, potential devotee, devotee, whatever, but I might have had a natural knack but I saw how Prabhupada did that.

Giriraj Swami: But I remember, but I was not sure, because I remember we were in the hot sun on the hari-nāma and they came with the nimbu pani and they were like, you know, they didn’t literally do it, but the next thing they would have done would have been to carry umbrellas to shield us from the sun. They were like serving us hand and foot and of course we were not used to it at all. In fact, in Boston we were like more ridiculed than anything else on the street. But I had heard that later, years later from I don’t know who, maybe Tamal or someone, that Kailash Sekseria had complained that you know, “I thought I was inviting sadhus but I got rajas and I spent 25,000 rupees on their food.”

Gurudas: But this was the friend who really, he liked to do it. He was generous. That was sādhu-saṅga for him but his friend turned him.

Giriraj Swami: That was why I was surprised to hear that because he really seemed to enjoy serving the devotees.

Gurudas: No he did and we did not know better. It was just ignorance on our part. I mean, if nimbu pani was served to us in a plain thing we would drank it because it was hot. Or water or whatever. But it was just the way and because it started and then the devotees who were tasting all of this said, “Oh yes this is great,” and everybody was enjoying that. And Prabhupada was not there. He was in Calcutta and Kailash Sekseria came to the airport and I thought he was a detective because he had one of those kind of hats, what are they called? Business men hats.

Lady: Fedora.

Gurudas: Yes, Fedora hat. And I said, “Where’s your identification?” because I thought he was a detective. And he pulls out a telegram from Prabhupada that says, “Guru dasa, American in charge,” and he gives it to me. And he said, “Be the guest of this gentleman and you are coming later,” and we rode from the airport and I was saying, “This is amazing. We had this caravan of cars and the most important thing is the horn and the brake.” I was just wondering what is the purpose of doing the horn so much in the middle of you know, and you know the cow would be there. And then one time we were riding in Bengal and you know how if you do with the horn, just automatically cows and rickshaws and people, they just so aimlessly go to the side of the road and you pass them. But then so the horn did not work, so Prabhupada said, “Let me have my tali.” His metal tali and he had a cane and he went like that. And it banged and some people went like that to the side of the road. Because we were yelling, “Hare Krishna!” at first when the horn did not work. And they would just go, “Hare Krishna,” and [back up] the side of the road and then you know we would have to go like that. We would go, “Hare Krishna.” So Prabhupada saw this, so then we went “Bom bom bom.” So then [Akoryananda] was doing it. He would do it out the window and Prabhupada joked. He said, “They will think that this is the new American horn invention.” So do you remember the sādhu-saṅga with all the sadhus on card tables the next day?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: That was a scene.

Giriraj Swami: I am sure you remember. Well I would like to hear what you remember.

Gurudas: Well I remember we went into this room. They just said that there was some kind of function and we were ready and willing to go to anyone and there were different kinds of sadhus on the card tables, all on the side of this room. And it was a really long room, a big room. So you would see people with matted hair and every kind of tilak and it was fantastic. It was like everything you would hear and read about India right there on the card table.

Kunti: Was this in Bombay, just after you got there?

Giriraj Swami: Yes and when we first came.

Gurudas: And then we did kirtan and they just, they responded quite nicely I remember. What do you remember about this? This is good because 

Giriraj Swami: Well I remember the long lines of tables and as I recalled it sort of went around the whole perimeter. I thought it was a pandal although it was right at Marine drive. Later I know that there was a vacant plot where the Somanis would sometimes have a program, maybe just off Marine drive. And I remember looking at them. You know I had mystical ideas about India and also I didn’t know what other, like I heard even devotees ask Srila Prabhupada, “Are you the only pure devotee in the world?” We always wondered sort of like what was there in India. So I looked at them and at the end I thought there is no one like Srila Prabhupada. No one like Srila Prabhupada. And then I was not sure at what stage but we did a hari-nāma, it was like our first hari-nāma and I think we went up to Church Gate. It was a long one in the sun and then we came back to Kailash Sekseria’s house and had heavy meals.

And then Prabhupada came and he addressed the same group of sadhus and I remember, like there was a stage at the end I think Jamuna, I think two men, I don’t remember. I know Jamuna spoke. I think Madhudvisa spoke, maybe one other man, you or Shyamasundara. I don’t remember and then Prabhupada spoke and we did kirtan and we really captured the minds of everyone in the audience. Just by looking at them I could see there were no comparison between them and Prabhupada. Prabhupada was preaching. They all I think had books in front of them and were just sitting there in some sort of yogic posture.

Gurudas: They weren’t doing much. I remember that. 

Giriraj Swami: They were just sitting there.

Gurudas: And Prabhupada liked to do that. He would like for us to speak and he would sit there like a proud father, like this is what I brought from the US. 

Giriraj Swami: People were very impressed.

Gurudas: And those books. One time in Bombay as a matter of fact, we were staying at this man’s house.

Giriraj Swami: [Wilan]?

Gurudas: Yes, [Wilan’s] house, that is where we spent the night. And I was his servant for the day or something. Some Mayavadis came in the room and they had booklets and they were all giving them to Prabhupada and he was very, very cordial. But then he liked this Bombay chevdar very much, this kind of savory. So I looked through the keyhole to see what he was doing when I was his servant and he was going like this with the chevdar and like that and then throwing it into his mouth, chewing and then closing it. So he had that and when the sadhus left he gave us each one of their books and we were wondering why is he giving us each one of the booklets and then he put chevdar on them. He used them as plates. It was outrageous. That Prabhupada liked their books were like that and Prabhupada, he had a stack like that on the shelf. But I was surprised about that.

So then we went to, there was a big program by the beach. It was called Chowrangi, was that Chowrangi?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, Chowpatty. 

Gurudas: Chowpatty, yes. And we had a press conference on the roof of Kailash Sekseria’s. And also Prabhupada gave some people prasādam. We were in the room and people were wanting to see what was going on inside and then the bars, probably Tamal was getting a small guerilla army together to dissuade them and instead Prabhupada gave them all prasādam with his hand.

Giriraj Swami: Where was this?

Gurudas: In a room in Kailash’s.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, some people came to see Srila Prabhupada?

Gurudas: Well no, they were outside, looking in the windows through the bars.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, downstairs when we were on the ground floor.

Gurudas: Yes, the ground floor.

Giriraj Swami: I remember that.

Gurudas: And there were people and Prabhupada gave them all prasādam.

Giriraj Swami: Through the bars?

Gurudas: Through the bars.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, that is nice. Well I remember one time you were talking to Srila Prabhupada in his room there and I think you were glorifying Dinanath. And then you noticed his Deities were there and then you said, “Oh Srila Prabhupada I am sorry I forgot your Deities were there. The Nectar of Devotion says you should not glorify anyone in front of the Deity.” And then Srila Prabhupada said, “Krishna is already glorified. But he takes more pleasure when His devotee is glorified.” 

Gurudas: Prabhupada said, we were alone and he said, “The table can come here,” and it was like the table was suddenly a person too.

Giriraj Swami: Where was that?

Gurudas: In Bombay in that room.

Giriraj Swami: In that room downstairs?

Gurudas: And there was like, Prabhupada was here, and he said, “The table can come here,” and the table was right between us and he put his elbows on it and so I did too. And we were just that close and very soft. And he said, “They are having trouble in London. Maybe you should go back. You and Jamuna.” And I said, “Whatever you want Prabhupada.” And then he said, “But you are doing so much here and I have plans. Dhananjaya may be able to do it. I will let you know.” But he said, “The table can come here.” It was like the table was also a person. 

After Chowpatty where did you go? Did you stay in Bombay?

Giriraj Swami: No we, after Bombay we went to together with Srila Prabhupada to Amritsar.

Gurudas: Oh you were in Amritsar. Of course you were. That is when we had that famous, when everybody else got bedded down and you and I slept in the middle of the impersonalists. Yes. What do you remember of that? I would like to know.

Giriraj Swami: A lot of programs. Baladeva Inder Singh, the [].

Gurudas: But do you remember I got banned and you replaced me?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: Yes, I got banned from speaking. 

Devotee: You got banned?

Gurudas: Yes, I think I said something like, “There is variegatedness in spiritual life.” So I said something like, “There is variety and you pick the person you are with like a husband chooses a wife. You just don’t choose anyone and you eat prasādam. You don’t eat stool in the street.” I heard murmuring and this and that and they took me to Prabhupada and 

Giriraj Swami: I thought you said something like, “If it is all one then,” and I am not really exactly which way [].

Gurudas: This is probably better.

Giriraj Swami: “If it is all one then why can’t I sleep with your wife?” Something like that.

Gurudas: Oh! Well I don’t quite remember it that way but that is, no wonder they banned me. Well they brought me to Prabhupada and I told him the first version and Prabhupada said, “Can I use that?” Fortunately, I did not tell him what I was perceived to saying.

Giriraj Swami: Something like that. “If it is all one why don’t you sleep with someone else’s wife?” 

Gurudas: That could have been true. Not necessarily me but. . .

Giriraj Swami: It must have been, I am sure it wouldn’t have been you. Yes.

Gurudas: But then Prabhupada said to them, “My American and European disciples use graphic examples,” he said and that was enough for them to be. . . And then, so everybody got situated at night and then you and I went and slept with, in the middle of the. . .

Giriraj Swami: I remember it was freezing.

Gurudas: It was very cold.

Giriraj Swami: And one night. Yes, we went into the hall where all the Mayavadis were sleeping.

Gurudas: Did you fall asleep? I guess you don’t remember the conversation that happened?

Giriraj Swami: Someone asked you for a blanket?

Gurudas: Yes. Now they said that all is one, the spark in the fire is the same and I was saying that the spark cannot cook a meal, but qualitatively they were the same but not quantitatively. And then he gave the example, “You see the thread and the blanket are the same,” and he took a thread. So I gave him the thread because it was very cold and I said, “Okay, the thread and the blanket are the same. Use this blanket as the pillow and then he came and said

Giriraj Swami: Oh, you took his blanket from him and gave him the thread back?

Gurudas: Yes, because he said that the blanket and the thread were the same. And it was very cold. So he came about an hour later, shivering and I said, “Well you said the blanket and the thread are the same so actually you cannot apply this philosophy, can you, in reality.” I said, “You have to go before my guru tomorrow,” because the thing was that if you defeat somebody philosophically, they should bow before you but. So he went to Prabhupada the next day.

Giriraj Swami: That is nice.

Gurudas: Yes. So that was an interesting application of our philosophy. And Baladev Inder Singh, remember all the animals?

Giriraj Swami: Everybody had animals on the wall.

Gurudas: We were all not knowing what to do because there were wildebeests, lions, and tigers and this guy was the king. He would move his eyebrows and his family would shiver. He was really a king and so his life was kind of going around like this and the children and you know. . . And so we were all there in this lions and tigers and we thought it was pretty gross. What I usually do is look over and what is Prabhupada doing? Prabhupada was completely transcendental, talking to the king and someone asked Prabhupada about all the animals. And he said, “Kshatriyas. He is a king.” Kshatriyas must hunt animals to practice how they would be in warfare and it is in our literature as well. What do you remember about that, being at his house?

Giriraj Swami: Amritsar. I remember we went ahead and Prabhupada came later and I don’t know who did the cooking. I think maybe the ladies came over and cooked it at the place. I do remember vividly that before Prabhupada came we were singing, “Bhaja Bhakata Vatsala,” and I think Malati was making the offering. And I remember Prabhupada came and sat down right where we were singing and I just felt like Krishna was there, the pastime that was in the song was actually there.

Gurudas: It is interesting how one can be at the same event, even let’s say photographing the same thing, it will come out different in describing. That shows that there is variety and personalism. And so then after that where you at the lawyers when Prabhupada addressed the lawyers of Amritsar?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: And we went to the golden temple. Yes, and Prabhupada really liked the big walk and the communalism that was displayed there. 

Giriraj Swami: What do you remember in the meeting with the lawyers?

Gurudas: I do because Prabhupada, first of all he pronounced lawyers like ‘liars.’ He says, “Liars.” So that always started out with telling it like it is. So there is that which I always liked. But he talking to them about, that they, about the book of the muni and that spiritual laws should supersede material laws basically I think. 

Giriraj Swami: Because there was one meeting with lawyers where he asked me to speak and I spoke briefly. I remember there were like a lot of lawyers in Allahabad. I could not actually place where that was, but since you mentioned Amritsar, maybe it was in Amritsar.

Gurudas: It could have been because I don’t remember Prabhupada speaking very much. I think you are right. Somebody else.

Giriraj Swami: I know I spoke to some lawyers, to a meeting of lawyers but I don’t remember if it was Amritsar or Allahabad.

Gurudas: Allahabad would have been probably later during the Khumba-mela. So when you recall when you did it, it would probably indicate.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I don’t.

Gurudas: He did not speak very much. Prabhupada did that. He would want us to speak to show what we had learned, things like that. We were on the train going from Amritsar, oh we went to the Lakshmi temples and Lakshmi-Narayana and the golden temples. We went on some tours but then we all left and were on the train. Where you on the train?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: Yes, and what happened then? You were on the way to Bombay right?

Giriraj Swami: We were all on the way to Bombay.

Gurudas: So he kicked us out right there. He kicked us out. I was in the Delhi station like [] and just watching goes on and this guy comes in the train, D.D Gupta. He offers Prabhupada sweets and they actually crumbled. They were so old. This guy was a character. And they were talking in Hindi and I am just looking out the window. I kind of understand a little bit here and there. Prabhupada says, we were in the first class. I was in the first class compartment with Prabhupada and he said, “Get down. See what you can do. Who will you take with you?” And I always thought I was on the way to Bombay with him. More nimbu pani in silver urns.

Actually a really incredible thing happened before that on the train. We were in the first class compartment and some people came in and put some luggage on the top and we never saw them again. And so Prabhupada was here, there was luggage on this, luggage on the top berth and some luggage on this berth and I was on the bottom berth and Prabhupada had the whole bottom berth. Kausalya brought some prasādam and Prabhupada ate prasādam. Then he gave me from his plate prasādam, mahā mahā mahā. It was so great and that was nice. And then he lay down to rest. And so he was lying down and I was in between the luggage and sitting there and he said, “Come here.” So I did not know what he wanted me to do because the only place to come was that one berth. So I did not know whether he wanted me to sit there and massage his feet or put his head in my lap or lie down next to him or what. And I was. So I just took some luggage and put it there and stacked it there. And I said, “Well, I can lie here Prabhupada,” and he said, “Oh all right.” And he was saying, “Take rest, take rest.” So that was very, very special that he was so friendly like that. So then he says, “Get down, see what you can do. So who will you take?” So I immediately said, “Giriraj,” because not only was he my friend, but he was very competent, been showing his competence, being asked to speak. Just knew of all the seventeen people that came and then he was asked to speak. So it was not just me feeling that way but other people weren’t great speakers. And since his sense of humor was starting to come out, it made it nicer.

Giriraj Swami: You are good association.

Gurudas: Yes. Like now, we’ll all rosy instead of ash and grey and afraid to look this way or that. So and then I said, “Kausalya and Durba,” but Prabhupada said, “I have plans for them.” And then Bhanu, a great devotee from Japan, very nice devotee and then Jamuna of course and then I had this brilliant idea to take this guy Gopal who did not get along with too many people. But I could tell he was strong. He would do all our legwork. He would do that kind of stuff and it turned out to be good I think. In an intimate situation he flowered. So then we went to D.D., you remember D.D. Gupta who actually tried to put us all on this motor scooter? Do you remember? He tried to put all five of us in the side []. He really did. He was trying to, “. . . and Jamuna can go,” so we said and Prabhupada gave me fifty rupees from some place. Fifty rupees, we had fifty rupees to start Delhi. So we said well we should take a taxicab. So the guy begrudgingly, we get a taxi and not only that, we have to stop the motor scooter while we watch him going into the field for a bit. So this is a red flag of what we can expect from this guy although we did not care. We were in bliss, we were chanting, we did not think like, it did not matter. Okay there he is. Now he is back. He takes us to Delhi gate, right on the gate. It was New Delhi and then the Casper, Old Delhi. It was really that demarcation in the atmosphere. And there were easels and monkeys in the rooms too. But those people were great that we had kirtans with in the morning. That was nice. There was a little temple there. Did you go to D.D. Gupta’s house with us?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. 

Gurudas: He showed me, I don’t know if you were there, but he showed me he had a locked draw and it had batteries in it that were dead. And he prayed to Krishna that they would get life again so he could []. The guy was really, he was a lawyer. All his black suites had chalk and holes and he was really and he did not do much but the people at the temple were very nice. He just sort of introduced and painted this picture of how we should come to Delhi but he did help us with some sort of document or something one time. Then Prabhupada sent us some letters about the life membership and we went to this big man’s estate, I think Mr. Atmarama or somebody, a friend of Prabhupada’s. And outside of Delhi, did you, you went?

Giriraj Swami: I probably did because. . .

Gurudas: A big estate and then Prabhupada said, “Mr. [Damir], he will become a life member and Giriraj and I went to Mr. Damir.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I remember that.

Gurudas: And I said, “Giriraj let me do the talking.” And he became the most blissful life membership enticer of anybody. You did not know you would be a life membership with him. Like Tejas, you knew you were life member, you felt like, “Tejas took my house, my wife, everything.” Somehow really like this, did I do this? Did I want to do this? But Giriraj would come in and he would just do it in such a different way. But I am saying, ”Let me do the talking.” I thought I was so smart and Mr. Damir became a life member and it did not change my feeling of how great I was because he became a life member immediately. And also Dr. Lokesh Chandra, a member of Parliament, was in the office, who became a friend of mine. We would stay with him sometimes in Delhi. He had a big institute at the edge of town and Tibetan monks were there, translating tombs and doing stone rubbings. His father started the opposition party in India and he then left that party and went to Indira Gandhi. He started a rumor that Indira Gandhi was a reincarnation of a Goddess and she started going around in a helicopter to the villages and they all believed it because of the helicopter. And he would go with her. So he helped get her elected.

Giriraj Swami: I heard that people thought she was an incarnation of Durga.

Gurudas: Yes it was him. He started that idea. And do you remember we brought a tape recorder when we went to Indira Gandhi. Bhanu had it on. That was a stupid thing to do. I would not do that now. I mean if they caught us then they would have thought we were CIA.

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: And they accused us of being this, this whole village one time surrounded and us and we were the Maharaja of Bharatpur sent us to some village. And they surrounded us and said that we were CIA. So I said,” You know I don’t know any CIA people who get up at brāhma-muhūrta, 3.30, 4.00 in the morning and chant so much.” I said, “Besides, if we were CIA what would we want from India?” I said, “Nothing works,” and I had this pen that was leaking all over the place. I said, “What would we want?” So they thought about it. I said, “I do want one secret formula. This secret formula for your gulab jamuns.” They said, “Oh, he is not CIA.” And then I had am meeting with this guy, Omar Shankar Dīkṣit. He was the home minister, the secretary of State.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I remember that.

Gurudas: He was a wise man. I said, “Why do you, you know we are not CIA.” I said, “Why do you not deny that we are.” He said, “Because you are too successful.” He said, “When you did your food program in Mayapur I got some food from the American government, WSB blend,” which actually did not work but that is another story. They gave us two tons of WSB wheat soya blend and put sugar in it. They did not need to put sugar. It would have worked better but because we were so successful, in fact there are some pictures of you at the long lines and you are feeding people. He said, “If we deny that you are CIA and we are afraid that you are going to be too successful and you already made us look bad, so what we have to do is just take a neutrality on it.” It was like a high level meeting and he didn’t say that he disliked us or anything. It was just like what he could do as far as a government official. I really appreciated it. It was like really treating me like high level person and being able to understand that level of things. And he said we have to be secular. A secular policy in the government but very nice. Because sometimes people would think that and this film came out and that didn’t help either.

People would tease us, singing, “Dum Maro Dum” song, whatever it was. Yes. Where were you at the time? This was 1971? Did you come with us?

Vaikunthanath: I spent the year of 1971 in Trinidad.

Gurudas: When did you get to India?

Vaikunthanath: April of 1972.

Gurudas: And that is when I said, “Vaikunthanath.”

Vaikunthanath: Yes, “Vaikunthanath, you have come to Vaikuntha.”

Giriraj Swami: But he got another greeting when he got to Juhu. 

Vaikunthanath: Right, with Vraja?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. You want to tell that one?

Vaikunthanath: I remember the day I got to Juhu it was April, the hottest month of the year in India. The next morning I went up on roof of one of the buildings and Puranjana was there. It was probably about 105 or 106 degrees, a 100 percent humidity, mosquitoes flying all around. He says, “Welcome to paradise.” It actually is a paradise. It has all the coconut palm trees. It is beautiful but it was a bit of a shock for us.

Gurudas: Well Prabhupada was sitting on the floor in Calcutta across from the Pukkur, that there were mosquitoes coming. And he said, “I have fooled them.” And I said, “Who Prabhupada, who have you fooled?” He said, “The mosquitoes.” He says, “They rise and I am sitting on the floor. They go up.” So I didn’t notice, I said, “Are there mosquitoes in Krishnaloka?” Prabhupada said, “The mosquitoes there don’t bite, they sing.” That is one of my favorite little anecdote stories that Prabhupada was so like that. They don’t bite they sing. 

Giriraj Swami: What was the other thing you mentioned yesterday that was not in your interview?

Gurudas: I don’t know. 

Vaikunthanath: I have one question. You were saying that you were on the train and Prabhupada was going to Bombay.

Gurudas: Yes.

Vaikunthanath: And then Prabhupada said, “Get down and start a Center in Delhi?”

Gurudas: Yes. “Get down and see what you can do.”

Vaikunthanath: And Giriraj went with you at that time.

Gurudas: He went because Prabhupada said, “You will take with you?” and besides Jamuna he was the second name.

Vaikunthanath: And that was how the Delhi temple originated?

Gurudas: Yes.

Vaikunthanath: Is that right?

Gurudas: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: Now from there we went to Indore but you stayed back because the books were stuck in the docks in Calcutta and the members were complaining that they were being cheated and you stayed back to get the customs clearance forms.

Gurudas: I forgot about that. Yes. Well then after that I got them cleared. Actually I got them cleared with this guy, Mr. Minochar, who became my friend. I even went to his wedding. Then Prabhupada sent me, because I had asked him in 1967 about Vrindavan. I had read Autobiography of a Yogi, and it was the most impressive chapter. Lord Krishna is [], re-established by him going to Vrindavan and then getting a ticket and people treating him so nicely. There was a picture of Krishna on the book and I remembered it. So Prabhupada remembered it and he sent me because I actually was not feeling that well in Delhi. I mean we were doing stuff but it was kind of slow. We started to do these programs that we expected some sort of reciprocation. There wasn’t that much and I wasn’t really depressed but I remember I kind of felt lethargic or something and then Prabhupada said to go to Vrindavan and get this Lakshmi Rani Kuñja palace that was available. So while you went to Indore I went to Vrindavan and then Tamal came through to Vrindavan to pick me up to go to Indore. And I joined everybody there in, not in Indore but in Surat, where they gave us a great, great welcome. What was the man’s name in Motorcycle [], you remember?

Giriraj Swami: Jariwala, Bhagubhai Jariwala.

Gurudas: What is his first name?

Giriraj Swami: Bhagubhai.

Gurudas: There were so many garlands. They had festoons and banners across. It was something like you read about, the whole area welcoming us. But there were so many garlands put on us that you would have to give them out because there would be more than, there would be lots like that. Right? You remember?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I remember.

Gurudas: Wonderful. And Vrindavan was great. Tamal became a little kid when he came. We made tilak out of the Jamuna clay and I showed him around. This palace, you have seen Lakshmi Rani Kuñja right, you have seen it?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: Well I knocked on those big tall doors and nobody answered and across the street was a school and the headmaster of the school befriended me. And he was a Bengali gentlemen and he was dressed nice and well-groomed. We talked and Pratap Sing., it was a king’s school, he made it into a school and this king hung around. There were pictures with him and Lennon and with Gosh. I mean he had all sorts of adventures and then he retired in Vrindavan and made his palace into a school. And the headmaster said that he could arrange a meeting the day after next in Lakshmi Rani Kuñja. So I went there but the king was actually in Bharatpur so we had to go to Bharatpur. I went to Bharatpur and finally we met him and he was pretty, he welcomed us pretty good. We had a big, then Jamuna came and we had a prasādam feast in Govardhana and there were actually people in uniform, livery and fanning and super service and it was good prasādam. Very opulent. Then he wanted to go on a parikramā of Govardhana and we were going around and I am talking to him and suddenly I saw he is not there, he is back there. So I go back and I am talking to him and again he is back there. He said, “Kings don’t walk, they stride like elephants.” So it took us three days to get around Govardhana. And he had this entourage with him. He had incense, like big incense burning and an army and nurses, two queens. The queens were great, the maharani of Nabar, who had like white on her face like a Japanese [] play. But she was sweet, sweet woman. She was a devotee. And then there were another queen. And he said, “Do you know the head of the peace corps?” And I said, “No.” He said, “He ran off with my wife.” He was a little bit, by that time we knew he was a little bit not having all the chapters in his book. He was a little bit eccentric, which you can say being a king. If he was poor, he would be crazy. So we are going around Govardhana and he is showing rocks that ring and all the stuff and he is wanting to give these palaces and I am just bidding my time. He is teaching me how to wrap my dhoti like a [jap], with each leg separate for sword fighting. Yes great I am going to use that a lot. And then we went to this little ashrama on a hill and he had this strange habit of not, well it wasn’t strange but he wouldn’t talk while he chanted to anybody or somebody came. And actually it was a good thing. But his japa beads were made out of culture pearl, 108 culture pearls. He had this guy with him, besides the nurses and the army and the queens and oh yes, the little cherubic son, ten years old, a cute kid. He would talk like this, “Daddy.” Well suddenly the priest comes, it is Govardhana-puja is coming soon, so the priest had a misfortune to talk to him while he was chanting because he made a big thing of it. Because he was pretty talkative but when he chanted this was his thing and he would get frustrated. He would try to talk but he couldn’t talk because this was his self-imposed rule and he was the king. So the man talks to him while he is chanting and he said, “I need some bhaksis, I need some money for our puja.” So the king was frustrated. He wanted to talk but he couldn’t. So he says to his money man like that and he was angry. You could tell. So this money man gives the priest 100 rupees. Well the Maharaja now is getting red and changing colors because, and he wasn’t a nice man, he was wanting to give them a one-rupee thing as an insult because he did not like the priest and this and that. So then he finished chanting and he started [tyrate], “I wanted you to give him one rupee,” this and that. Well, this small army about six guys and they had modern uniforms and guns and everything, they dragged this priest down the hill, his feet dragging, like dragging. And his son said, “Daddy, why did you do that?” He said, “I didn’t like him.” And I don’t know happened; did he get shot or what. And then we go, we are going around Govardhana hill, all these places.

Vaikunthanath: This is while you are going around Govardhana Hill?

Gurudas: Yes, the pilgrim. And then we get to this wonderful temple and there is a bit of Govardhana Hill with a marble temple around the temple and he had big gold earrings. They brought out all the stuff they worship with. They had a yoghurt and milk bath, he was doing like a little abhiseka even though he wasn’t. . . [end of tape]

Giriraj Swami: Then I left Surat before Srila Prabhupada to join the group at Sea Palace hotel that was during membership. And Shyamasundara, he sent me out to make my first life member.

Gurudas: Because technically you were really part of Mr. Damir’s and [. . .Chander’s].

Giriraj Swami: Yes, well I was there but you were really the one who was making the members. But in Bombay he gave me names and he sent me out on my own. And then. . .

Gurudas: What happened at Mr. Nair’s office? We went together right?

Giriraj Swami: No.

Gurudas: No. You didn’t go.

Giriraj Swami: No. You went alone. You went ahead of, I mean I didn’t meet him until later. 

Gurudas: It was somebody else. I thought it was you. Okay. I took his paper weightings, dropped it on his desk because he was claiming to be Krishna.

Kunti: Oh no, really? Who was claiming to be Krishna?

Gurudas: Mr. Nair. The one who was giving us trouble about the land and now that I think of it, that that probably wasn’t a good thing to do. Maybe that is why he stalled all those years. I mean sometimes you see, in one sense you are saying, “Well Tamal Krishna listened to tapes in our living room,” but then the other sense inside you think, “Did I help create a Frankenstein monster?” 

Giriraj Swami: What was the thing about Tamal Krishna?

Gurudas: When I said before that Jamuna and I used to bring him to our house and got him to listen to tapes when he was first becoming a devotee and going. . .

Giriraj Swami: Oh I see.

Gurudas: So yes, the story is well Tamal was listening to tapes and reading a little and becoming devotional and then on the other hand you are thinking, “Well what did I do?” And then with the same thing with that, that because he was outrageous, he was getting up from his chair and saying, “I am Krishna! What are you coming to me for life membership when I am Krishna?” And the thing is that what they were doing is there is two people in Bombay, I think people sent people to get their chops down, to get acquainted with how to do this. There was this guy who was the brother of Mr. Gupta. He was the brother of the D.I.G. of the railway, district inspector general of the railway who actually gave me a whole car to use on one Khumba-mela. I had to get money fast from Bombay and he attached an old Maharaja’s car onto a train that was going to Bombay so I could go to Bombay and then detach it and come back. It was like in one day and it was an old Maharaja’s car with chandeliers and velvet and things.

Giriraj Swami: What did you need it for?

Gurudas: To get some money from Bombay to bring back to the Khumba-mela to pay for stuff.

Giriraj Swami: Oh really?

Gurudas: Because I had to carry it.

Giriraj Swami: Oh wow that is. . .

Gurudas: That was cool. But his brother was like this Anglo-Indian. He had a strong, you probably remember, he had a strong British accent, a gap in his tooth like Terry Thomas and he loved Sarasvati. He was like completely different from his brother. He had this house, better house and gardens of India. And he was showing us his garden and this and that. So he was also one of these guys in his own world and I remember people would send people to him to try and make him a life member because it was very hard to do it because he was in his own world. The same thing with this Mr. Nair. Before he got into these negotiations, that he was known to be arrogant or whatever and so it would be very hard to get him to be a life member. So they sent people to him to see how they can do to learn. So somebody sent me there and he was jumping up and down saying he is Krishna. And I said, “Well Krishna has 16,108 wives.” And he said, “I can do that.” I said, “Can you support them all?” And he saying, “Yes, I can do it.” So I said, “Well this, I don’t want to get into a debate with this person. I should not even. . .” So he is jumping up and down and saying, “I am Krishna, I am Krishna, I am Krishna.” So you know those paper weights? And so I just took the paper weight and went boink on the desk. And it was a glass-covered desk you know and it made a resounding sound and he stopped. He stopped ranting. And then I left.

But again, maybe that is why he stalled all these years from selling this land. But at the signing it was nice because his wife was there and she was very sorry for how her husband acted with Prabhupada and she was crying. And Prabhupada says, “You are like my daughter, my daughter,” and it really had a really nice flavor to it, the signing itself. And you, yes, you were around too. This was when, I don’t remember exactly how it went but it was like Prabhupada said, “Guru dasa should go and make friends with Mr. Nair because he can make friends with anyone.” But then he said, “But he has no business sense.” And then did he mention you to go?

Giriraj Swami: When was this?

Gurudas: No, I don’t think you were here. I just remembered. He said, “Guru dasa should go and make friends with Mr. Nair. . .”

Giriraj Swami: Oh in the very beginning?

Gurudas: No.

Giriraj Swami: Later?

Gurudas: Later, when all the stuff was going down. He said, “Guru dasa should make friends with Mr. Nair because he can make friends with anyone but he has no business sense.” Then he said, “No, Tamal Krishna should go and do business with Mr. Nair,” but he said, “He does not have any friends.” So Prabhupada said, “The only one that can do it is me!” That is true. He actually said that that Tamal does not have any friends. So that was really funny. And he said that.

So then I guess you stayed in Bombay?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, from then I stayed in Bombay.

Gurudas: And was that before Akash Ganga, the apartment?

Giriraj Swami: That was after.

Gurudas: So did you see palace as a. . .

Giriraj Swami: Oh no, what I said, I think we are talking about different times and the sequence. From the time Srila Prabhupada got Juhu, I stayed in Bombay but when we had. We had Akash Ganga, then we had the first Bombay pandal and then Prabhupada sent Tamal and me to Calcutta to do the pandal there. Then Hansadutta asked me to come on the beginnings of his world travelling saṅkīrtana party. So then, oh no, that is wrong. Hansadutta asked that when we were in Gorakhpur after Allahabad. Then I went with Hansadutta to [Agra Aligarh]. Then we got a telegram to come to Bombay for the first Bombay pandal. Then, oh now I remember, then we went, you know Tamal and I went to Calcutta to arrange the pandal. Then Prabhupada came for the pandal there. Then I stayed in Calcutta, then we had a second pandal Desa Priya Park. Then you had gone on to Delhi to arrange the first Delhi pandal. I think you and Tamal.

Gurudas: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: Then I came to Delhi for the first Delhi pandal when Prabhupada came. 

Gurudas: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: Then Prabhupada was going to go to Vrindavan for the first time with the devotees but he had an invitation from Dr. Bali to go to Madras.

Gurudas: Oh yes.

Giriraj Swami: I went to Madras. And all the other devotees went with Srila Prabhupada to Vrindavan.

Gurudas: But you were a big part of that.

Giriraj Swami: Madras?

Gurudas: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: Dr. Bali or Balu?

Giriraj Swami: Dr. Bali, Vaijanti Mala’s husband.

Gurudas: Oh yes, well there is a Mr. Balu who was around too who was a. . .

Giriraj Swami: Yes, he was from, he was in Madras and we stayed at his place in Madras.

Gurudas: Interesting that they are so close in name. The press was good in Madras. They really reported what Prabhupada said. I note that. So you went back on the train with us to Vasakha Putnam after that?

Giriraj Swami: No, I stayed on in Madras to finish up and then I joined the group in Mayapur. That was when Prabhupada laid the corner stone.

Gurudas: Oh. Well the Bombay pandal was pretty good. I was at that too. 

Giriraj Swami: But what I feel is if you actually have to leave at three we should take prasāda now.

Gurudas: Okay. I don’t have to actually leave at three. I am going to go and check on the []. I don’t have to leave so, but let’s take prasādam anyway. But I would like to stay something about the Calcutta pandal because Tamal sent a telegram that I should come immediately because it was like Ratha-yatra over here. The day before nothing was started and the telegram, because they write it in [] said, “Come to Calcutta immediately. Tamal OD’s.” So I was thinking, it meant “okayed,” but in street vernacular OD means overdose. So I am thinking, “What did Tamal overdose on, the holy name?” You can’t do that. And this guy came running to me in the street and he says, “What does this telegram say?” It said, “Garbled word left,” and if it was his sister, and then she was visiting, but if it was his mother, she was in ill health and then she died. So I said, “Go back to the telegraph office because they wrote it. They would know.” But he was distraught because it was, he had not written in garble. So I came to Calcutta and it was true. I had to go there and pretty much while the first day was going on we had to still build and then the communists wanted Prabhupada to leave. And you remember Colonel Datta? 

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: This guy, Colonel Datta, he used to say, “I am going on a secret mission in Pakistan behind lights,” and I wondering why is he telling us all in the temple in the public if it is a secret mission. We all suspected that he was making it up. He would just go home for a few days and then come back but he was always painting this mirror in the heart because he can get an audience with us. So he is in these jungle cloths here at the pandal and he wants to fight all the communists. So I said, “Well, let me handle this.” So I go to Prabhupada and he says, “What is going on?” And there is a note, “Quit India or die,” and I said, “There is communists and they complaining that we have life membership seats for one rupee if they wanted to sit there.” So Prabhupada said, “Let them sit there if they want.” So I said, “You can sit there.” So that busted their complaint and then Prabhupada sand Brahma Samhita prayers and it quieted them all down. Then there was noise again and Prabhupada said, “What was that?” And there was Pisima and she had a lot of follows herself, his sister and they were making a lot of noise. So Prabhupada said, “Please ask them to stop because we want to start the program.” So I did it pretty good because in India a lot I saw people getting people to quieten down were noisier than the people who were actually making noise. So she and she and I had a great relationship so she understood. So then she quiets down and I go back to Prabhupada and he said, “I used to beat her up and I still shall.” Through me! That was funny. He surprised me. You never know what he is going to do. That was the thing. You never knew and that was the beauty of it. 

Kunti: So what were they doing, just talking, Pisima and her followers?

Gurudas: She was sitting on the stage and they were just coming to have her darshan. She was very sweet. I remember after that somebody came and was distraught that some loved one had died and Pisima said it in such a soft, she said, “Maybe Krishna wanted that person to be with Him.” And the way she said it, it was just like real strong, real right on. She was really special. She liked Vrindavan. She said she liked Vrindavan more than Mayapur eventually. 

Yes, so then you got Bombay going eventually. You stayed there right?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. So how would you say you are applying what you got from your association with Prabhupada in your life now? I mean is it all right to ask?

Gurudas: Sure. Sure. Well what I got from Prabhupada was his great compassion. And there is so many qualities of Prabhupada but I try to keep that going not only with these clients and stuff but also with devotees. I try to stay friends and see various ways devotees may offer their service and try to understand it even though some people may be doing different things and seemingly different ways of going about it in the same areas. So I think more than anything that is how I like to continue that, his compassionate side and I preach when I can in various ways. 

At one point I was being asked to preach outside of Vrindavan and I was feeling very attached to Vrindavan at the time, so I said to Prabhupada that, “I don’t really want to leave Vrindavan if I don’t have to but I do like preaching. What should I do?” And he said, “Preach to devotees.” And it was a great realization because I had remembered how one person was a friend with another devotee and then the person became a president of a temple and he did not treat his friend so nice after he became initiated. It is like courting and then marriage. So suddenly you get married and then the relationship dissipates and I did not want that to be in Krishna consciousness. So when Prabhupada said, “Preach to devotees,” it was like a big realization and I really did. And it was enlivening to me and maybe some other people because I didn’t just take it for granted anymore. So it was a great thing to say and I really took it to heart. And so one on one I like to do that still in my way.  But I am really not that good a devotee but I do what I can. The important thing is if I can help smooth relationships between devotees, that I think is a service.

Giriraj Swami: It is very important.

Gurudas: And also by glorifying Prabhupada, continuing to do that in books and stories and it is a breath of fresh air because I have come to realize, as people have told me that there is a lot of people who really don’t know that side of Prabhupada. They read his books, there is a formality, there is a strictness that people want to perpetuate because Prabhupada said this. It is easier for behaviorism in a temple if you are strict and Prabhupada says this, but all the times Prabhupada tied up the microphone with his brahman thread or sat with his leg up and his hand behind his head, so casual and loving and fatherly to his children. Spoon feeding us. Those were the things that are important for people to know also because there is much more than that formal preaching side even though it is important. And he even said his writings were not the same as sometimes his preaching moods and stuff, the purports and. One morning we were walking and just he and I in Russell Square and I had been reading Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s writings and I liked them because they were very poetic and [], devotional, “When O when.” And Victorian language and everything and I really in my heart, in my soul, I liked Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s writings even more than Prabhupada’s. And we were on the walk and I said, “Bhaktivinoda Thakura is my second favorite author,” and I was like indicating that Prabhupada was my first. And he said, “Second?” And I said, “Uh oh, Prabhupada is reading my mind again.” I could tell. I said, “No Prabhupada, I have to admit that he is really my first favorite, you are my second.” And he said, “If I had one tenth the. . .” and he cried, I don’t know the word “. . . of Bhaktivinoda Thakura I would be a great devotee.” So that was pretty nice. 

Gurudas: I was thinking I could scan this and send you a copy or if you got the ability to do that, I could give this to you and you could send me a copy.

Giriraj Swami: No you keep it.

Gurudas: Okay I will send you a copy.

Giriraj Swami: But I wanted to clarify something that you said because I have thought it. In fact, Kausalya said it but it sounded so radical. But I believe you said that Srila Prabhupada said that there were things in his mood and preaching that weren’t the same as what was in his books. What was that exactly?

Gurudas: No, no. That he said that his purports were sort of preaching and sometimes the mood in the purport was different than when he preached personally because of the writing. He just indicated that the purports were for preaching and that in person there might be a different mood than like a purport.

Giriraj Swami: That is sort of what Kausalya said.

Gurudas: What did she say?

Giriraj Swami: She said that there is statements in Srila Prabhupada’s books about women which are different from the way Srila Prabhupada dealt with women. She said, maybe the way she said it was more dramatic. She said that she didn’t feel that he really believed some of the things he wrote about women in the books because the way he dealt with them was so different but that she felt that out of faithfulness to the line, he had to repeat what the line says. Now what you said that Prabhupada said and what she said, I was thinking what other apart from the language, I mean hers is like very explicit, with yours Prabhupada was more subtle, perhaps whether there really is a difference?

Gurudas: I don’t think it is a difference. It is time and circumstance again, which Prabhupada also taught me. And that was a big realization that there is time, place, circumstance for things and they come out according to that. So the purport was carrying the line and a long line but his treatment to Kausalya and Jamuna and so many were like they are daughters. And even on the, he said this on the spiritual platform there is no difference between men and women when it came up once. So I just, not only that, other people who saw this as a formal aspect of Prabhupada and they knew him and other times in his room it would be different, a different mood. So that is all I am saying. They are just different times and circumstances. For instance, it was always different and I knew the differences. When I used to go in the middle of the night and nobody was there to get attention to myself, so we would have more time with Prabhupada, it was very intimate. During his massages he would talk history. Morning walks he would talk nature and philosophy. So he actually, I noted that there were different times for different things that he would sometimes do and different moods and so that is all I am saying. That is all I am thinking that, I don’t really remember him saying anything about it. I wouldn’t say that Prabhupada said, I don’t remember what Prabhupada said about it. 

Giriraj Swami: Oh, I thought you said about that Prabhupada said that what he wrote in his purports were not always the same as the way he. . .

Gurudas: No, I don’t think it is a “Prabhupada said,” now that I think of it.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, that is your realization?

Gurudas: Yes, yes. It is not that he said.

Giriraj Swami: Okay.

Gurudas: But not only my realization. Some other people pointed it out. I am just trying to remember if he ever said anything about his purports. No, but my, what I am really saying is that a lot of people don’t know his, that side of him. But they just read his books they might not know his great open mindedness, his humor as much as some of these stories convey. 

Giriraj Swami: That is true.

Gurudas: And when devotees hear it, they love it, they just love it.

Vaikunthanath: In Boston once we were walking with Prabhupada, and he was asking something about where the sun [] and then he referred to them as the gopīs, [unclear]

Gurudas: Yes,

Vaikunthanath: [unclear] 

Giriraj Swami: Really.

Gurudas: Yes. I remember in [Ali] Krishna and Surabhi were dancing so nicely in the temple and Prabhupada stopped and he said, “Just see,” and he was pointing out how nicely they were dancing. And in San Francisco we started to do all these programs and we were actually billed as “Malati and the Dancing gopīs.” In the beginning Malati was our group and we did the Republican party and the Democrat, and with the Republican we brought a picture of Ganesh. It was really funny. So they really liked that. We had Ganesh there and with the Democrats, they had this guy who worshipped the [dead one, had a lion]. 

He had a lion and he worshipped the devil and sometimes we found ourselves doing programs with him, Malati and the Dancing gopīs. [unclear]

Gurudas: [unclear] and they invited us to these parties.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, but you invited you?

Gurudas: The Republicans and the Democrats and different people. Somehow or the other we would set up these programs. Actually ask Malati who set those up. I don’t know who set them up but. Yes Prabhupada was very, very kind to Kausalya and Jamuna. Jamuna was made GBC one time. And Visakha wrote me, “Why didn’t she accept it.” So I said to Visakha, “You should ask Jamuna.” But from what I remembered she didn’t want to do it. She could have. [unclear]

I was made GBC twice and then [] wanted him back, so Prabhupada said, “Okay, you don’t have to,” but I am really bad []. But Jamuna, when Visakha did contact her, it was because she would rather worship Deities and that. So I said, “If you are more inclined to Deity worship [], why not do that.” She saw what it was like to [], so she did not to, but she could have. And I said, “It is a compliment. . .”

So I am not sure what Kausalya is getting at but I just heard from people who have never met Prabhupada and when they hear some of the stories, they are very surprised. [unclear] Even when we were in LA, you remember it was me, you and Madhudvisa and Tamal. We were talking for a while and everybody else, it was like three minutes, and all I gave Prabhupada was a cookie and he looked at me like that and it was a fierce look and it wasn’t [] sweet, compassionate, open minded.

. . . Prabhupada was not advised of all the things that went on. I remember when I heard some reports of some of the book distribution stuff that was going on in the West, he did not that they were not spending time with people and preaching and this and that. When he heard that a book was thrown in the garbage he was astounded and he know that there was a woman in a dark room once she had hepatitis, not being taken care of by her husband, and stuff like that. I didn’t even know it and then I heard, I made sure she was okay and everything. [unclear] I was saying that Prabhupada wasn’t always advised of some of the things that happened. 

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Gurudas: Because like Kausalya says, [] the way he treated Pallika, Kausalya and Jamuna. . .

Kunti: It took me a long time to figure out that the way the women were treated in ISKCON is not how Prabhupada treated women and only when I got to know devotees who knew Prabhupada, like you say, kind, compassionate. It was like a different world.

Giriraj Swami: And how did you figure it out?

Kunti: By meeting devotees like Kausalya and hearing from Giriraj Maharaja about his association with Prabhupada.

Gurudas: There is not too many people. If someone wants to get initiated these days if I can recommend and this is one of them. And that is why I brought Jamuna [roaming in the] that day. But it is very true.

Giriraj Swami: I actually had no idea of how Srila Prabhupada [unclear] and Bhagavān. . . He would always quote Prabhupada in support of what he was doing. [unclear]

Gurudas: That is very interesting and Mandhukini is a great devotee.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, Mother Mandhukini told him all these stories about how loving Prabhupada was. [unclear] they had their own mood of heaviness and Prabhupada reciprocated with them.

Gurudas: Yes, but the thing is that they could have seen it [unclear] Yes, it would be easier to preach that way, people will follow and do what I say. If you give them individualism, women, whatever, think for themselves, then it would be harder for them to act the way you want. It might take three minutes to do something instead of one minute.

. . . that Mandhukini married that German devotee. She came crying to me and Jamuna. We were both there. And we said, “Mandhukini, you don’t have to get married if you don’t want,” and she was so relieved. She told be about her husband. He worked for Eurovision, right?

Giriraj Swami: Mmm.

Gurudas: Yes, they were great. Mandhukini, Ilavati, and Jotyimayi came from Paris to London. Great devotees. They were hassling us on saṅkīrtana in London. We would go to Piccadilly Circus and people would surround us. We had this plan that when they arrested us that everybody would go back to the temple. So it was me and Yogesvara and they arrested us and the other devotees went back to the temple. There was about sixteen. So they brought us to court and I said, “Well if the police were so interested in stopping obstruction, first of all where we were arrested?” And it was on the way back to the temple. I said, “Second of all if the police were that diligent how did they let sixteen of us go?” The judge looks over his bifocals and says, “Is this true Officer such and such.” And he said yes. He says, “Well I am inclined to just let this case go, but I must implore you to stop singing in this public foot pass in your costumes.” So I said, “Well our so-called costumes are, represent the Lord as your robes represent the law,” which is a Prabhupada []. And he said, “Oh quite, quite.” So then we went and now the police were [ ] so Tamal Krishna had this plastic vidura hat and a big trench coat. He looked like a businessman. So I borrowed it and the plan was that when the police stopped us, Mandhukini, who had that kind of face, and Ilavati would go down on the ground like this and everyone eighteen of us like this. And it happened to be a big burly [] so it really turned out good because it was like deep coverage and they were like this and they published it in the newspaper. And they chased me, they chased me, but I took off Tamal Krishna’a trench coat and the fake hat and so then suddenly I disappeared. There is a guy running and then there is a guy with a shaved head. She was a great devotee, Mandhukini.

Kunti: She took care of me when I joined. We were in South Africa. She was so sweet you know. She was so sweet, so tolerant. I mean you know how you are when you first join, a little bit all messed up. You are very sincere about what you want to do and very determined but you know are still caught up with other ideas as well. She was just so patient and so kind. I remember her very well. She really spent time with me, to give her time.

Gurudas: Because that is the way it was and Prabhupada said the London temple was a family. And that is the way it was. We were a family and actually men and women wasn’t that much of an issue, except we had to be mixing for this or that. And there wasn’t any mixing and that was Prabhupada’s point. He said, “Mixing before marriage. . .” that we were in the same building, five stories, the women’s quarter and the men, Prabhupada said there was no mixing. That shows that it is a family. It is not artificial. He meant that it was good relationships. And I was reminded this. I forgot completely. They told me that I used to go into the brahmachari area and read the Kṛṣṇa book at night, and milk and cookies and Kṛṣṇa book at night. And I would just go there and sit there in the middle of the brahmachari ashram. That is how much I knew