Prabhupada Nectar with Naga Patni and Man Mohini—Part 01

Giriraj Swami: Well, you mentioned forgiveness, and I thought of one incident. We were in some town when we were touring with Prabhupada in India, and the local people had arranged a program for Srila Prabhupada in the street. Sometimes they would do that, they would block off the street, they would make a stage, and I guess they’d put down gadis, and they would just have a program. So, Prabhupada was on the stage, and we were sitting on the stage by him, and there were all these people, around the street, and as usual, we began with kirtan.

Somehow, after the kirtan, a question popped into my mind. I was thinking of a verse where Dhruva Maharaja tells the Lord, “Now I am fully satisfied, I have no other desire.” And it just came into my mind, where does the verse come from? So, in the few minutes between the kirtan and Prabhupada’s lecture, without thinking, and it was just like a child will crawl on the lap of the father. He does not even know what else is going on in the room; he is just oblivious to everything else. So, I just went up to Srila Prabhupada and I said, “The verse you quoted, where is that from?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Perhaps Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya.” And that was all, he said it very kindly, and I sat down.

And I forgot about the incident for years, and years, and years. And in general, when I become absorbed in some work, or some matter, I don’t like to be disturbed, and in Juhu in particular, when someone would come into the office when I was trying to concentrate or work, I would become annoyed. And I don’t know, somehow, I remember that incident. In front of all these hundreds of people, right in the few minutes between the kirtan and the lecture, I had just gone up to Srila Prabhupada and asked him the question that did not have to do with anything else that was happening. He was so peaceful, and so patient, and so kind, he just answered. He did not say that this is not the time to ask, or anything like that.

And again, I think it’s his love. I mean, he did tolerate a lot in terms of material conditions and just enemies to the movement. If someone would disturb me and I was tempted to react, I was trying my best to tolerate. But I think he wasn’t actually tolerating, well, maybe he was, but I think, like you said, his love for us was so great, it would be like if a father was going to have an important discussion with some important guests, and then his baby climbed up on his lap, it would not be that he was tolerating, but out of love for the baby, he just accept, and later might set the baby down.

Of course, appreciating is so important. I guess there are many after effects of Srila Prabhupada’s departure. But I think, one, it can be seen, I guess, from different angles of vision, but one is that the mood of appreciation for the devotees has really fallen to pieces. And instead of appreciating, there is so much fault finding, which was so different from Srila Prabhupada’s mood. And I think, again, we can trace clauses, but I think that makes the biggest difference. And that if we could appreciate each other again, that we would build up better, and our association will be so congenial that people would want to enter our association, naturally want to join with us.

Remember one, forget what the occasion was, but we were having kirtan here, maybe some festival day. And the kirtan was just so attractive, it wasn’t a fancy kirtan. But the kirtan and the atmosphere and the mood were just so pleasing that I felt if only more people could come into this atmosphere, they could be so happy. And then I recalled how in the beginning, that was the atmosphere, and we would want to bring people in the association because we were happy, and we knew if they came into the association, they would also become happy, and when they came into the association, many of them were attracted and they did stay.

And then I thought how Rupa Gosvami says that the five most potent items of devotional service are so powerful that even a little association with them can awaken dormant love of Krishna within the heart, provided that the devotee is, I think he uses the word open hearted, but the explanation of open hearted is offenseless, without offense. So, I was thinking how the practices themselves are so attractive and so potent that if we could just do them without offenses, we would be enlivened and gladdened, and people who wanted the same association and engage in the same practices, they would also feel enlivened and gladdened.

So, it’s hard now, and sometimes people express the sentiment that they wish they could live close to the temple again, which is really nice to be in the community of devotees, near the temple, but unfortunately, there are often a lot of other things around the temples, complaining and criticizing. And now I think of one other incident that really shows how tolerant Prabhupada was.

Well, we were in Calcutta, and the temple president at the time had become very involved in business, specifically incense business and other paraphernalia that he exported, and he did not pay much attention to the devotees and we were poor in any case then, the devotees really had a hard time. So, when Srila Prabhupada came, many of the devotees went to him and complained. Finally, Srila Prabhupada called a meeting of all the devotees. He asked for them to speak, one by one, the different devotees came forward with different complaints, and Srila Prabhupada listened very sympathetically. And he formed a committee, and he said that the committee should deal with all the issues. They should meet and they should have a minute book, and they should write down whatever they decide, or whatever they decide together.

But then, after listening with so much sympathy to the cares of the devotees, Srila Prabhupada’s mood seemed to change, and he said, “In my whole life, I never complained because my policy was always everything for Krishna and nothing for myself.” And then, he said how he suffered so much on that voyage to America, he suffered so much; heart attacks, and then when he got to America, he suffered. Sometimes he would have headaches, ringing in his ears, and he said, I don’t remember the words, but the idea was that we could not comprehend how much he suffered, and he could not explain to us how he suffered, nor would he want to. But then he said, “I never complained because my policy was always everything for Krishna, and nothing for myself.” Then he also said that our tendency is to become absorbed in material things, so if we come together and complain about material defects too much, we’ll forget our real business, which is to hear and chant about Krishna.

So, I think that’s the [Unintelligible 00:24:51], the devotees just really want to hear and chant about Krishna, and think about Srila Prabhupada, and share their devotion to Srila Prabhupada. That’s what Srila Prabhupada gave us. And all the other things, I mean, they were always there in a small proportion when Srila Prabhupada was here, finding faults and complaining, but Prabhupada would always keep us focused on the goal, which was to be Krishna conscious and to bring others to Krishna consciousness, to appreciate the value of the devotees. Because again, he had so much love for the devotees, and if we did not have at least some appreciation for them, we were really not being mindful of Srila Prabhupada’s mood and attitude towards us.

So, in one sense, I am glad that I am not a manager anymore. With all the controversies and polarizations, I am sure I would be being pulled by this side and that side and say this, and do this. And actually, if you leave aside the controversies and politics, pretty much the devotees are nice, and if I was a manager and I had to take one side against the other, so to speak, or uphold some policy for the sake of the institution, which might not do justice to the individuals, I am sure it would hurt my heart and hurt the devotees. So, in one sense, I am glad now that I am not in the position where I have to take sides, and just sort of appreciate the love that the devotees have for Srila Prabhupada.

Anyway, [Unintelligible 00:28:22], but I am glad you came.

Devotee: It was nice to hear the stories.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, I see you have met. Nice. [Unintelligible 00:28:48]. That’s nice.

Devotee: It was a bit of a drive.

Giriraj Swami: Alright, well, we will be here tomorrow morning, we’ll probably start a little earlier tomorrow, but you are always welcome. Otherwise, I am glad you could come today.

Devotee: Okay, drive carefully.

Devotee: Thank you.

Devotee: Hare Krishna.

Giriraj Swami: Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Devotee: You know what I feel strongly about, Maharaja? Sometimes when I’m in India, godsisters or godbrothers, but especially godsisters because they speak to me and they are like, “Let’s go here to hear a Bhāgavatam class.” They’ll go down the road and listen to a Vaishnava that is not in ISKCON because he gives incredible classes. And I would see that happening, and people would be leaving to get Krishna consciousness from other sources, but I would never ever leave, because we have to back up our boys. Prabhupada was trying to train us up, and even if we have perfection, we should be there and we should be counted as a number. We should never vacate, never. It really bothers me that some people do that. I would like to hear a Bhāgavatam class from one of Prabhupada’s men even if it was faulty and even if it had some problems, and even if there were some communication problems rather than go off to another empty space, listening to somebody else. It bothers me so much that there is so much jumping ship. It’s our ship, Prabhupada's ship.

Devotee: Do you know what I mean? There are so many sources for Krishna, is it?

Devotee: If you were part of ISKCON, there is a certain way, it should have no changes, and no additions, no subtractions. It is a certain way and we know the way.

Devotee: I’m just confused about what Prabhupada wanted. What did he want? Did he want us to stay like that, or does he mind if we expand our priorities?

Giriraj Swami: Well, first, I would respond to what Man Mohini said about the time Prabhupada spent with the leaders, with disciples. One congregational devotee in Mauritius said something that really struck me, and he said that he feels that Srila Prabhupada personally trained his disciples, and if we don’t take advantage of their association, then we will miss part of Srila Prabhupada. It is sort of like minimizing Srila Prabhupada to minimize the people who were trained by Srila Prabhupada, and I thought that was true.

In a general sense, I would say that Prabhupada would want us to make ISKCON so nice that people would want to stay. At the last Prabhupada festival in LA, [Unintelligible 00:33:39], the devotees made the same comment, that no one can really compare to Srila Prabhupada. So, if we just invoke the presence of Srila Prabhupada, then no one will want to go here and there. And during the festival, we felt Prabhupada’s presence very strongly, and all the other types of complaining and politicizing just really weren't there. So, I think if we always have such a mood, then no one would want to go. We wouldn’t have to tell them not to go, they just wouldn’t want to go.

I mean, I know individuals who probably would have, or would have had a very hard time maintaining spiritual enthusiasm if they did not have association of some senior Gaudiya Vaishnava. But there are two categories; those who remain loyal to ISKCON and sympathetic to ISKCON but who have felt the need or felt the benefit of associating with some other Gaudiya Vaishnavas, and those who sort of joined the camp of Gaudiya Vaishnava and want to get people to leave ISKCON and come to the camp of the other person.

Now I think Prabhupada is very pained when people that he basically brought to Krishna consciousness directly or indirectly through ISKCON are now criticizing ISKCON and trying to take people away from ISKCON. I mean, criticizing ISKCON is part of the strategy to get people to leave ISKCON and join them. So, I’m sure he would be very pained and very angry. But if someone is weak, if someone has for different reasons had difficulty and in order to find a certain type of support or encouragement from another Gaudiya Vaishnavas that he could not get from his godbrothers in ISKCON, but who basically identifies himself as the follower of Srila Prabhupada and a friend of ISKCON.

Devotee: Well, that I understand. [Unintelligible 00:37:00].

Giriraj Swami: I mean, in the last year and a half, I have never gone outside of the LA area to preach, except when I went to [Unintelligible 00:37:31]. And of course, the decision was really made in my heart, it wasn’t intellectual. But when I thought about the decision that was made for me within my heart, I thought that the reason was because you all had remained loyal to Srila Prabhupada and have even in an environment where most of the people who became followers of someone else, were very active and [Unintelligible 00:38:06], and I think that Srila Prabhupada wanted to reciprocate with you all for remaining loyal to him. I mean, I don’t know about the others, but Advaita Chandra told me specifically he wanted to move away from there, because the atmosphere was so surcharged with the other mood. And I think by her definition, in the context of her statement, I think probably what she is talking about is like jumping ship.

Devotee: If you see faults in ISKCON, it’s up to us to be kind of among the numbers that will fix the faults, not to go away. How is that going to help anything? If you leave, that’s one less person who has maybe the ambition to fight. So, if you leave, it weakens it even more so. Prabhupada loved ISKCON. That bugs me and I have a problem with that. I don’t say anything because I don’t like to get into fights. But if we remain loving and friendly, and if we build up our community, then when people see this, it’ll just happen naturally. They’ll see, “This is nice, this is ISKCON.” Look what you have here, it’s so sweet. We have to be strong.

Giriraj Swami: This is going to be a bit of a devious statement but. . .

Devotee: You have our attention.

Giriraj Swami: But, on the last day in [Unintelligible 00:50:55] when I offered the ārati, I got the impression that Srila Prabhupada felt that my traveling and visiting with devotees in different places was so important, valuable, that I should do it every month. And then, as soon as I got back here, I formulated the plan to go to Santa Cruz and San Jose, and [Unintelligible 00:51:45], but then my health took a turn for the worse and my condition did not allow me. But then, you wrote about the program, then I said, “Well, my health does not allow me to go,” but then you came here.

So, in order to fulfill the inspiration I got in the ārati at [Unintelligible 00:52:47], and at the same time, follow my doctor’s instructions and stay within my limits, I think the only solution is to have devotees come here for two days every month until I am able to travel. And as it is we thought of sort of March, was it March or April for me to go back, sort of decided that the spring would be better.

Devotee: Spring would be better.

Giriraj Swami: The spring begins. Well, yesterday morning, all three of us spoke, and afterwards, Abhay Charan Prabhu commented how despite all the differences among Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, I don’t think he was referring to the three of us in particular, but that the underlying factor in all of them was their love for Srila Prabhupada, and as Man Mohini Mataji mentioned yesterday, that our love for him was actually just a reflection of his love for us. And it’s true, and during the maṅgala-ārati, I was sort of praying that, not praying, that we could all come back together like we were when Srila Prabhupada was personally present. But then I sort of got the answer, “That’s not possible.”

Recently, I read a conversation where someone made a statement to Srila Prabhupada, I think it was George Harrison. George Harrison made a statement to Srila Prabhupada that people would chant the holy name more and more, and basically, he said that everyone will become Krishna conscious and there will be no more wars, and no more violence. And Srila Prabhupada said, “That is not possible.”

So, the impression I got that it is not possible for us all to get back together the way we were when Srila Prabhupada was here, but it is certainly possible for more and more of us to, as the underlying love for Srila Prabhupada and Prabhupada’s overwriting love for us becomes more prominent in our minds and hearts and the differences of varna, or ashram, or opinion, the differences recede into the background, and our love for Srila Prabhupada and his love for us is the main factor, which it was when he was here.

So, it’s sort of like the time Srila Prabhupada was walking in England in the winter, and he came to a pond that was frozen over, and he pushed his cane on the ice a few times, then he broke through the ice to the water, and he commented that the hearts of the living entities are covered, and the covering makes their hearts appear hard, but under the surface, their hearts are liquid.

And one of the statements from The Nectar of Devotion that maybe Pradyumna Prabhu told me about, or someone, maybe Jayadvaita Swami told me about, someone who would have read the book before it was really printed and read by the devotees in ISKCON, and he said that The Nectar of Devotion says that the hearts of pure devotees can be compared to gold. It was gold, ghee, and honey, something like that. And that the heart of gold melts, but it only melts at a relatively higher temperature, and the heart, which is like ghee, also melts, but it only takes a little increase in the temperature to melt, and the heart which is like nectar is always liquid, it’s always melted.

So, at least from our point of view, we saw or felt that Srila Prabhupada’s heart was always melted. And whatever he did, his love sort of exuded from his heart through his entire being and whatever he did, and by his association, our hearts also became softened. And in some cases now, after so many years of separation and so many trials and tribulations of the movement and of life itself, some of the hearts might seem to be harder, especially in relation to the way we relate to each other, but as Abhay Charan Prabhu said, underneath it all there is the devotee’s love for Srila Prabhupada, and I think that by coming together and remembering him and speaking about him, and hearing, and chanting about him and Krishna, we can get through that icy layer, or maybe the icy layer will just melt and our natural love for Srila Prabhupada or our innermost feelings for Srila Prabhupada, we will be able to feel them, and feel his love for us, and for all of his children.

I mean, in an ultimate sense, he is the representative of Krishna, who is the Supreme Father of all living entities—Srila Prabhupada has love for all of Krishna’s children, but especially, Srila Prabhupada has love for his specific children who surrender to him and who have tried over the years to serve him or whoever just now begun the attempt to serve him.

So, of course, it would be nice. I mean, spiritually, it would be nice to have such association the whole day, every day, but considering our fallen condition and practical limitations, it would be nice at least once a month. I mean, I would say that you would be welcome, I mean, I wouldn’t put the pressure on you that you have to come every month, but there are some devotees in LA actually that sort of talked on Prabhupada’s disappearance day, [Unintelligible 01:04:53], they had the idea of coming up, but then I did not really [Unintelligible 01:04:58], but I think that’s the way, because it was so vivid in the ārati [Unintelligible 01:05:10] you specifically or generally could come here.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Okay. You look good. I am sure even if [Unintelligible 01:05:47], your looks will play through.

Devotee: Can I ask you a question? With a lot of our godbrothers and sisters, they have become very relaxed in chanting their rounds. And I don’t want to appear preachy to them, but at the same time, how would you encourage people to take those instructions seriously without being offensive?

Giriraj Swami: Well, most devotees know that they should chant sixteen rounds, and somewhere within their hearts, not only do they know that they should, but they feel bad that they don’t. So, when I have been with such devotees, mainly, I have just within my heart appreciated their service to Srila Prabhupada in the past and even at the present, and just expressed my appreciation and not really spoken about their deficiencies. Because many devotees have been hurt over the years by the way other devotees or ISKCON leaders, or even life itself, has treated them.

And with a completely new person, we don’t tell them they have to chant sixteen rounds, I mean, if they ask what the standard is for initiation, we tell them that, we just encourage them, and make them want to be in the association of devotees. So, even though someone may have been initiated thirty years ago, but the person in one sense might be like a new person who needs to be encouraged all over again to appreciate the association of devotees. So then, when they want to associate with you, with devotees again, then they will come to some program where there will be hearing and chanting, and that may act upon them to encourage them again to chant, and take up the practices more seriously.

And of course, with the devotees who are following, we want to educate them about the consequences of not following, so that they don’t come to the stage. Basically, all we can do is sort of appreciate them and encourage them, and not speak so directly about the principles and practices. But then again, some of the devotees who don’t follow so strictly really have very deep love for Srila Prabhupada; I would say more than newer devotees who follow more strictly. And then again, the newer devotees, we don’t know what they are going to be like in thirty years, or twenty years, how they might feel. They are following now, and we hope that they will be following in twenty or thirty years, but we don’t know.

So, they should also preferably be humble, [Unintelligible 01:12:32], even if the senior devotees aren’t following so strictly in terms of their behavior, but who really do have deep love for Srila Prabhupada and who would sacrifice, I believe many of them would sacrifice, if by doing so, if by their sacrifice they can do something to help Srila Prabhupada. I believe many of them tell they cannot do much the way things are right now, but I am sure if they were convinced they could help, even if at some personal expense or sacrifice, I am sure they would.

And I guess I’m making the point again but in a more philosophical way, or analytical way, one of the reasons that they lose taste. . . Of course, they lose the practice, but also one of the reasons they lose taste is by having bad feelings, resentment, which we could call offenses. And again, just by being nice to them and appreciating the good in them and the good they have done in the past, they can let go of their bad feelings and then let go of their offenses, and then they will be able to appreciate the chanting, and again, when they hear and chant without offenses, then naturally, they will enjoy and relish, and do it more.

Devotee: Well, I usually remain silent because a lot of my friends, devotees, they don’t chant. But the only time I get irritated and speak up is if there is an element that they water down the philosophy to suit their own level, so that they don’t feel bad. They’ll switch things around a little bit, bent things to justify their level of sense gratification, which we will have, but I feel like as soon as somebody is humble, there are a few who hit the mark that Prabhupada would like us to have. But I usually remain silent because it’s almost astrological, people go through different stages, and sometimes they just stop chanting, and they stop following, and then sometimes they come around.

And I feel like all the devotees aren’t offensive, because they already know that they have been through so much, and if you do even a slight spit, they get offensive, and they feel prosecuted or fault finding. They are very, very sensitive, but the only time I really get angry is when they start messing with the principles or things to justify where they are at. That’s my experience. If they are innocent and they have good sentiments, it’s just a matter of time, I feel.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that’s true. It’s true. I mean, what would be an example?

Devotee: They are taking intoxication. Someone would say, “No, it’s okay to do that,” naturally switch things around. They will say, “I have heard Prabhupada said it’s okay to drink liquor, it increases digestion.” I have heard, let me see what I have heard, a lot of strange stuff, better to chant two good rounds than sixteen. It’s quality and not quantity. And I have heard lots of stuff from all of them.

Giriraj Swami: Well, but again, I think in their hearts they know.

Devotee: But then you have to speak up, right? You can’t let stuff like that go.

Giriraj Swami: Well, I probably hear less of it because I don’t think they would try that with me. They probably know they cannot get away with it with me. I would probably argue, I would probably argue. If someone said that Prabhupada said that liquor is good for digestion, I would probably say, “Well, there are other things that are good for digestion that aren’t bad for your spiritual life.” I would say it like that.

Devotee: Well, I guess it’s a general way to say it.

Giriraj Swami: Well, yeah, he did say for meat eaters that they have to take alcohol to dissolve the meat.

Devotee: But not for [Unintelligible 01:19:50].

Giriraj Swami: And it is better to chant two rounds with quality than sixteen rounds without quality. I would say that could be true, but how do we chant any rounds with quality? I mean, it is very rare to chant any rounds with quality. But to be able to chant any rounds with quality, that’s why Prabhupada said practice makes perfect, even in spiritual life. So, we practice chanting with less quality, and gradually, we improve the quality.

I mean, there was one conversation where. . . Again, the old days before we had computers. So, when I would find a quotation from Srila Prabhupada that I thought was significant, relevant to the devotees, I would type it out or have some devotees type it up and then make copies and give them. So, I made one, which I called, “Quality in chanting.” It was from a morning walk where a disciple asked Srila Prabhupada about chanting with quality, and Prabhupada said that chanting with quality means like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did, the whole world is awakened in you [Unintelligible 01:212:56]. So, that is quality chanting. So, he said, “Quality in chanting is not so easy.”

Therefore, we chant sixteen rounds as our duty. As our duty, we chant sixteen rounds, and when we are fortunate enough that the quality of separation comes, it will come, then we just do our duty. But again, if someone is a senior devotee who is just sort of making excuses and trying to justify his own.

Devotee: They’ll say eating eggs isn’t bad because it’s not killing an animal. My old devotees, good friends, say things like that.

Devotee: They’ll say that Prabhupada said that smoking marijuana is man’s law not God’s.

Giriraj Swami: Well, eggs.

Devotee: But you know what my answer to that is? Prabhupada said, “No eating meat, fish, and eggs.” If he said, “No eating meat, fish, and olives,” we shouldn’t eat olives, it’s simple.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, yeah. But what I heard years ago that struck in my mind is that the egg is like the product of menstruation of the hen, so I mean, one can eat that.

Devotee: Yeah, you mentioned that a few times.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, and the other thing is that they are part of God’s plan for procreation. So, isn’t it that if we take the egg before it is fertilized to eat, then we are interfering with the natural plan for procreation? Not quite sure about it.

Devotee: It doesn’t seem auspicious or clean, definitely.

Giriraj Swami: And again, it is like Prabhupada said, that we are not vegetarians, or not non- vegetarians. We only eat food offered to Krishna. We can’t offer eggs to Krishna, so it is sinful. Even if we say that it is not the sin of killing an animal, but it is sinful, it is the sin of, but it is such a vile thing. But anyway, even if we take a banana and we don’t offer it, we just take it for sense gratification; we are guilty of the sin of taking Krishna’s property. He gives us permission to take certain items and offer them to Him and take the remnants, but He doesn’t give us permission just to take.

Devotee: That’s why we aspire for a good, strong temple devotee association like this, because mostly, if we associate with other types, it is hard for us because we were on top and we are very fallen. That’s why we aspire that our association is like this.

Giriraj Swami: I also read that recently in a morning walk conversation where Srila Prabhupada was discussing devotees who live outside of the temple. Devotees were asking Srila Prabhupada about devotees who live outside the temple in Hawaii, and Srila Prabhupada said that they could live outside the temple and follow the instructions of the spiritual master outside the temple, but the advantage of the temple is that there will be a good example, and then he emphasized especially the leaders set good examples for the others.

So, if they [Unintelligible 02:26:49] within themselves, the devotees in the temples can see the good examples, and then that will inspire them to correct their own weakness and come to the proper standard. It was a very nice discussion. It’s probably one of those ones that you might want to type down and make copies of it. It’s a very balanced discussion by Srila Prabhupada on the life of devotees who live outside the temple. But yeah, it can weaken you. Man is a social animal.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:27:50].

Giriraj Swami: But what was the one you mentioned?

Devotee: About marijuana, that it’s the man’s law, not God’s law. Someone had told me that Prabhupada had said that, which I knew he didn’t say anything like that. Again, I think in that context, it was. . .

Giriraj Swami: Well, no meat, fish, or eggs, no intoxicants including coffee, tea, and cigarettes. And I think at [Unintelligible 01:28:46] initiation, he said, “And no LSD.” I mean, I would agree.

Devotee: It is just sometimes I don’t know whether to say something, but I understand what you are saying is that if you can say something in such a way where it doesn’t become a competition.

Giriraj Swami: That’s it. The relationship is more important than the issue. So, if you can express our position in a friendly and congenial way that does not disturb your relationship, but it may actually strengthen the relationship because it might actually be testing you to see if you are just another fanatic that is more interested in arguing over the little points than you are interested in now.

So, you can show that you are really interested in them as people and not that you are not really going to get hung up over a difference of opinion. Then, I think you will have passed your test, and your relationship, and if you pass it, if you are silent and you show that you don’t want to disturb your relationship for the sake of some issue, that’s okay, but you can sort of represent Srila Prabhupada’s position, and at the same time, make the person feel that you value the relationship more than the details of his practices, then I think it will make the relationship even more strong, because I think he will feel comfortable emotionally that you care for him and not going to reject him because he said something weird, and he will also feel comfortable spiritually that you do actually have faith in Prabhupada because it works. It is constantly working and people affect us, and we affect the people.

So, even though constant association with weaker devotees can weaken us and make us accept the lower standard, like you said, their association with you, who are relatively stronger devotees, will serve to strengthen their faith. Unless they are really just like an ordinary devotee.

But what you are saying is confirming my first idea, that we should get together from time to time.

Devotee: That was the perfect answer, that the relationship is more important than the issue at hand. [Unintelligible 01:32:41] speak the philosophy, they understand it so well and are able to express it [Unintelligible 01:33:10] relationships in the past, and we should really start trying to mend these, [Unintelligible 01:33:29].

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, it works both ways. But that’s why it is always good to both give association to weaker devotees and take association from stronger devotees, so that you get strength to give to weaker devotees. But then, there is also something like I am not thinking or suggesting that I am a stronger devotee, just by coming together as we do, somehow, Srila Prabhupada manifests himself more, and that gives us more strength, encouragement.

Devotee: Well, we can bring a lot of devotees here. [Unintelligible 01:35:36].

Giriraj Swami: Well, thank you for coming, you both, and giving the association. We will see if. . . Yeah, that would be the other thing.

Devotee: We could be the recipients.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, I have to recover a bit more, but if there is a larger one, that could also work, where I am not the host and it’s not on me to be the host, that could work. [Unintelligible 01:36:39].

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:34:44].

Giriraj Swami: Yeah. I mean, it sounds good, I just have to see how and when it could work.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:37:19].

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:37:30] we have so much and you have so much association of Prabhupada.

Giriraj Swami: I think this is an important point to go back to the relationship versus the philosophy. Srila Prabhupada, if a person was friendly to him as a person, he could be friendly back, even if the person’s philosophy was different, but then when the person would bring the opposing philosophy, Srila Prabhupada would argue against it. But as long as the person was a friend to him, Prabhupada was a friend to the person.

And one example is Dr. Misra, who had the [Unintelligible 01:38:55] in upper New York. He was a Mayavadi, but he gave Srila Prabhupada a place to stay when Srila Prabhupada first came to New York. And he also gave Srila Prabhupada a chance to visit his ashram. And although he did not want Prabhupada to speak, he just wanted him to lead kirtan, but Prabhupada met some nice young people there and made them devotees. But he told me, I mean, I was there in the small group of devotees in the garden in LA when Prabhupada said that he and Dr. Misra were friends. And that Dr. Misra was sick and Srila Prabhupada cooked for him. And Dr. Misra said that he felt that Srila Prabhupada’s cooking saved his life, brought him back to health. And then, Prabhupada said that when Dr. Misra would speak a Mayavada philosophy, Prabhupada would argue vehemently. But outside of their philosophical arguments, they were still friends.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:40:38].

Giriraj Swami: I mean, it’s very hard for neophytes to understand. He is a Mayavadi, and a Mayavada, [Unintelligible 01:40:54] take bath in the Ganges, can’t associate with Mayavadis. And I realized it when I went to Lagos, Nigeria, and there was a man, quite a wealthy Sindhi gentleman. And mainly, he arranged a program for us at his house, and he invited his friends. And we went specifically to collect for Juhu. Prabhupada knew about it and he encouraged it, and he made very nice arrangements. It was a very nice audience of wealthy established business people. And the house was clean and they put down clean white sheets for everyone to sit down on the floor, on the carpet, nice prasāda, and I did not know that he was a Mayavadi because you do not really know until people start to speak.

So, after the lecture, when we had questions and answers, I discovered that he is a Mayavadi, he really came up to the Mayavadi in terms of philosophy. So then, afterwards, I thought, How should I deal with him? I sat with him because he offended Krishna, and I thought about it that he is a friend in the sense that he invited his friends to meet us and he was encouraging them to give for Juhu, and personally, he was very respectful, and the way he received us, and seated us, and offered us refreshments, he was very respectful.

So, I thought, Should I reject him because he is a Mayavadi? Mayavadi aparādha, and then I thought, No, why?. He is doing service. He may be a Mayavadi, but he is doing service, he is being nice to me as a person, so why shouldn’t I be nice to him as a person and maintain the service? And when it comes to philosophy, we will argue or he will put forth his points and I will put forth my point, but having philosophical differences is not going to make him break the relationship, why should I allow it to break the relationship? And it all sort of took place in my mind, right at his house, and then that’s where I thought back about Srila Prabhupada and Dr. Misra. And I realized, Oh, that was what was happening there.

And that was so important, especially now, where there can be so many philosophical differences on guru-tattva, or Gaudiya Matha, or whatever. So, I mean, yes, if they attack, that is something else, then we have to defend Prabhupada and ISKCON. But if they don’t attack but they just have their own ideas, which may be a little strange from some point of view, again, we shouldn’t cause a disruption in the relationship over it, better just tolerate the differences. Maybe not even bring up the topics, or if the other people bring up the topics, we can answer in a way that they feel that we are still their friends, but we just have our position.

And then there is preaching to the faithless. I mean, this is a little different because most of the people we are talking about have faith in Srila Prabhupada. But it just came to my mind that at that time, my parents’ sister had come to visit me in India. We went on a little trip with them. [Unintelligible 01:46:40] from Bombay. And I remember we were on the flight, I mean, I forget how long they were there. Anyway, I am not sure this is historically accurate, but it was maybe sixteen days, two weeks and three weekends. It was maybe a week in Bombay and maybe five days in Udaipur and four days in Srinagar, and then we ended up one day in Delhi.

So, we were on the flight, I will never forget, we were on the flight from Delhi to Srinagar, and I was confronting my father that we never went to the moon. And I just saw right in front of my eyes whatever little credibility our philosophy might have had with him was rapidly vanishing, and then it clicked that it is preaching to the faithless. He does not have faith in Vedic literatures, and by telling him that the man did not go to the moon, when he was so convinced by obvious evidence to his mind. He was just thinking that we must really be out of touch with reality, we must really be living in our own world. And then, I realized that this is what preaching to the faithless means. And then I stopped doing that.

And so, I guess, the relevance is that in a broader sense, we have to accept whatever is favorable to Krishna consciousness and reject whatever is not favorable, so arguing over a point of philosophy with a person, at the expense of a relationship, which may be very important for the person’s Krishna consciousness, that is not accepting what’s favorable and rejecting what is unfavorable. Rather, we should reject arguing at the expense of the relationship and accept preserving the relationship. And I mean, of course, Prabhupada, as the acharya, had to be very conscious of the [Unintelligible 01:50:49] he set because in the position of acharya, he might have to say, I mean, in the sort of gross terms, sacrifice the individual for the sake of the family.

I remember in the Līlāmṛta, I mean, Prabhupada would just do anything to keep someone in the spiritual family at 26 2nd Avenue. But finally, one devotee, maybe it was [Unintelligible 01:51:26], he became such a disturbance that Prabhupada let him go. Satsvarupa Maharaja commented that it was the first time that Prabhupada ever let anyone go without really trying by all means to make the person stay. And Satsvarupa commented that because Prabhupada now had many disciples to care for, he could not insist on keeping the one person who was a disturbance to so many of the others, and maybe a threat to so many of the others.

But in our position, we are not the acharya or the head of the institution, in our position when we are just dealing with individuals, we can go all out for the individual. It’s not that every word that we speak is being recorded, it’s going to be the standard for the next 10,000 years. And I think that’s another thing.

But even then, one example that comes to mind would remain, and we all knew that the devotee’s relationship with Prabhupada was the only hope any of us had in little things. After the first Delhi pandal, one of the main organizers of the pandal program was a lady, might have been a widow, I mean, we never saw her husband, and she wanted to invite Srila Prabhupada and the devotees to her house for prasāda after the program. So, we went. It was mainly just her family and servants, might have been a few guests, a few friends. And there was a kirtan and Prabhupada spoke, and I remember afterwards, there weren’t many people and I asked Prabhupada if I should make a presentation, either about the life membership or the books. He said, “Yes, make a presentation.”

That was in the garden, and then we went to the house, and there were several rooms that had been set up for the devotees to take prasāda because they could not all fit in one. And the lady had put onions in some of the preparations, and she was very gracious in serving Srila Prabhupada and devotees. She asked Prabhupada how he liked the prasāda, He said he liked the prasāda. And I think Mother Malati said, “Srila Prabhupada, there are onions in the sabzi or the dal.” Prabhupada said, “No, there are no onions.” And Mother Malati said, “No, there are. I have seen them. Not only have I tasted them, but I have seen them.” Prabhupada said, “No, there aren’t,” he just kept eating. He did not want to hurt the lady who had put so much into the program.

Another time, we went to visit Sumati Morarjee with Srila Prabhupada, and now she is a very important lady. I mean, very important in the history of Prabhupada and ISKCON, and important in the world, she is the [Unintelligible 01:55:42], company, and also the managing trustee of the Shrinathji temple, Nathdwara, very prominent in sampradāya. So, it was a big thing that we all, I mean, all means a few of us entered her house, and she had a plot right at the beach, and a big garden between the wall that separated her property from the beach. And her mansion, and there were a lot of palm trees. It was a little terrace, patio, or something, but a formal square, some benches, on one end there was a swing, metal.

So, they were sitting, and she was very gracious, Srila Prabhupada was very gracious, and she was remembering how Srila Prabhupada stayed in the Syndia worker’s colony in Andheri before he went to America, and every day, she would send a car for him in the afternoon, and he would come, and read to her from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And it was sort of a regular routine until he went to America. And at one point, she said to him, “Remember how you used to come every day and read to me from Rasa Pancha Adhyaya?” They are the five Chapters of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about the rasa dance. And Srila Prabhupada was smiling and beaming and he said, “Yes, I remember it well.”

And then the next morning on the morning walk, Brahmananda asked Srila Prabhupada, “Did you really used to come and read to her from Rasa Pancha Adhyaya?” And Prabhupada made a face and said, “No, I used to read from my First Canto.” But it was such a sweet exchange between them that Prabhupada did not want to spoil it, but he did not read from the rasa-līlā.

So, I think that’s also a problem. Of course, it is problem when devotees maybe sort of twist the philosophy to suit their purposes, but it’s also a problem when devotees who are neophytes just have association with Srila Prabhupada, take statements, which Prabhupada may make in absolute way, as the acharya, from the vyāsāsana, and then they try to apply them in an absolute way. But Prabhupada as an individual did not apply them in an absolute way. And I will give one another example. Prabhupada was so concerned about the way we spent the money that came.