SB 7.5.30 – Material Education vs Spiritual Education

Giriraj Swami: The subject is “Material Education versus Spiritual Education.” And versus is the right word because the two types of education are competing for predominance, and we shall discuss the topic in the context of one ancient history which is recorded in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam; the story of Sri Prahlada. Prahlada’s history is very interesting because he had two sets of teachers. One was spiritual and the other was material. How did it happen? Well, as you may know, in ancient times, there were dynasties of demigods who were devotees of the Lord, and there were dynasties of demons who were against the Lord. So, two very powerful demons were Hiraṇyakṣa and Hiraṇyakaśipu. They were brothers, and Hiraṇyakṣa was killed in a fierce battle with Varahadeva, who is an incarnation of Lord Vishnu. So Hiraṇyakaśipu, within himself, developed great anger and hatred for Vishnu and he vowed to avenge his brother’s death by killing Vishnu.

So as devotees, we know that Lord Vishnu is the Supreme Lord. His form is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss, and cannot be touched by any material force or harmed by any material object. But demons misunderstand the Lord to be material like them, to have material physical bodies like they have, and therefore they think that by superior physical strength, they can overpower Vishnu and kill Him, just like they can overpower and kill any ordinary person. So, many thousands or millions of years ago, there was a fight between the devotees and the demons, between the demigods and the demons, and in the fight, the demigods captured the pregnant wife of Hiraṇyakaśipu, and they thought that she is carrying a demon within her womb. So, they wanted to wait for the child to take birth and kill him, because they were afraid that he would create disturbance in the universe like his father. But just when the demigods had taken possession of Hiraṇyakaśipu wife, the great Saint Narada appeared, and he told the demigods just to stop, not to kill the child because the child within the womb is actually a great devotee. So, Narada took Kayadhu, who was the wife of Hiraṇyakaśipu, to his ashram, and in his ashram, he gave her protection, and instructed her in spiritual knowledge. And while he was instructing her, Prahlada within the womb, heard the instructions and he became Krishna conscious.

So eventually, as in wars, there is always ups and downs, sometimes one party defeats the other, and after some time, the other party may defeat the first. So, after some time, Hiraṇyakaśipu gained predominance over the demigods, and his wife returned to him. So Hiraṇyakaśipu, being a great materialist, in fact, the name Hiraṇyakaśipu indicates the mentality of the materialist because Hiranya means gold, and kaśipu means soft cushions or mattresses. So, materialists like to amass money, and enjoy sense gratification; sleeping and doing other things on soft cushions and beds. And when Prahlada was of age, he sent Prahlada to the gurukula or to the school. Guru actually means teacher; in the best sense, guru means a spiritual preceptor, but in an ordinary sense, any teacher can be called a guru. So, the two teachers of Prahlada Maharaja were seminal sons of Sukracharya, who was the guru of the demons, and under Hiraṇyakaśipu’s vigilant supervision, they educated Prahlada in material pursuits, and they trained him in politics and diplomacy and different skills that he would need to rule over the universe.

So, one day, Hiraṇyakaśipu had Prahlada come and sit on his lap, and he asked Prahlada what was the best thing he had learned in school. And, Prahlada being only five years old, Hiraṇyakaśipu thought he would say something very cute. So, Prahlada Maharaja surprised Hiraṇyakaśipu and told him the best thing he had learned was that one should give up the materialistic way of life, which is like a dark well, and leave one’s family and home and go to the forest, specifically Vrindavan, and cultivate Krishna consciousness. So, when Hiraṇyakaśipu found that his son had taken the side of the demons, he became furious and taking the side of the devotees who were considered to be his enemies. So, he called the boys teachers and he accused them of contaminating Prahlada with Vaishnava philosophy. So they said, “No, we have not taught him Vaishnava philosophy.” Hiraṇyakaśipu accused them that you have allowed Vaishnavas in disguise to enter the school and contaminate him. So anyway, the two teachers, later took Prahlada aside and asked him in a very gentle way, where he had learned to be Krishna conscious. And Prahlada replied that just as iron is attracted to a magnet, his consciousness was naturally attracted to Lord Vishnu. That his consciousness had been changed by the will of the Lord and was naturally attracted to Lord Vishnu.

So, the teachers were very concerned, and they really threatened him, and they almost beat him with a stick, and then they began to train him in how to divide and rule and the four different types of diplomacy, and after some time, they were convinced that he was being educated as a proper materialist, and they were ready to present him to his father again. So, Prahlada fell at his father’s feet, and his father very affectionately embraced him and smelled his head and kept him on his lap, and he was so overwhelmed with affection that tears began to glide down his cheeks, and he said to Prahlada, “Now tell me, what is the best thing you have learned?” And, Prahlada replied, śravaṇam, kīrtanam, viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ, pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ, vandanaṁ, dāsyaṁ, sakhyam, ātma-nivedanam; the nine processes of devotional service, and he said that one who is engaged in the service of the Lord by the nine processes is the best educated person and he doesn’t need to know anything else. So Hiraṇyakaśipu became enraged and he threw Prahlada off of his lap, and he began to accuse the teacher, and the teacher said, “No, we haven’t taught him Vaishnava philosophy, and we haven’t allowed Vaishnavas to enter the school.” So Hiraṇyakaśipu wanted to know how did he become so deviant, and the teacher said, “Why don’t you ask him? We don’t know how; he seems to be naturally so you ask him.”

So Hiraṇyakaśipu asked Prahlada, and Prahlada replied in three verses, which are considered very simple, significant, and important, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So, we will read those verses—Canto Seven, Chapter Five,

TEXT 30

śrī-prahrāda uvāca
matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā
mitho ‘bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ
punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām

TRANSLATION

Prahlāda Mahārāja replied: Because of their uncontrolled senses, persons too addicted to materialistic life make progress toward hellish conditions and repeatedly chew that which has already been chewed. Their inclinations toward Kṛṣṇa are never aroused, either by the instructions of others, by their own efforts, or by a combination of both.

COMMENT

So, Prahlada’s answer is very intelligent. Hiraṇyakaśipu asked him, “Where did you learn to become Krishna conscious, how did you become devoted to Vishnu,” And Prahlada replied that the people with uncontrolled senses don’t go in the direction of Vishnu, but they go towards hell. They go in the direction of hellish life, and he uses the phrase, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, which means chewing the chewed, and he says that their inclination towards Krishna is never aroused either by their own efforts, by the efforts of others or by the combined efforts of themselves and others. So if we inquire logically, what are the different possibilities one could think, well one becomes Krishna conscious by his own efforts or by the efforts of someone else, or by the combined efforts of oneself with someone else. So, the mystery became even deeper how Prahlada became Krishna conscious because he excluded all of the three most likely possibilities

TEXT 31

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ
durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ
andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās
te ‘pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

TRANSLATION

Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṇu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

Since there must always be a difference of opinion between demons and devotees, Hiraṇyakaśipu, when criticized by his son Prahlāda Mahārāja, should not have been surprised that Prahlāda Mahārāja differed from his way of life. Nonetheless, Hiraṇyakaśipu was extremely angry and wanted to rebuke his son for deriding his teacher or spiritual master, who had been born in the brāhmaṇa family of the great ācārya Śukrācārya. The word śukra means “semen,” and ācārya refers to a teacher or guru. Hereditary gurus, or spiritual masters, have been accepted everywhere since time immemorial, but Prahlāda Mahārāja declined to accept such a seminal guru or take instruction from him. An actual guru is śrotriya, one who has heard or received perfect knowledge through paramparā, the disciplic succession. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja did not recognize a seminal spiritual master. Such spiritual masters are not at all interested in Viṣṇu. Indeed, they are hopeful of material success (bahir-artha-māninaḥ). The word bahiḥ means “external,” artha means “interest,” and mānina means “taking very seriously.” Generally speaking, practically everyone is unaware of the spiritual world. The knowledge of the materialists is restricted within the four-billion-mile limit of this material world, which is in the dark portion of the creation; they do not know that beyond the material world is the spiritual world. Unless one is a devotee of the Lord, one cannot understand the existence of the spiritual world. Gurus, teachers, who are simply interested in this material world are described in this verse as andha, blind. Such blind men may lead many other blind followers without true knowledge of material conditions, but they are not accepted by devotees like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Such blind teachers, being interested in the external, material world, are always bound by the strong ropes of material nature.

COMMENT

So, what was true, millions of years ago is true now that most people are unaware of the existence of the spiritual world beyond the material world and most people are interested in enjoying the material world to the maximum. And we find the same thing in the great universities of today. In fact, under the guise of separation of church and state, prayer and religious instruction have been banned from public schools and even state universities are prohibited from giving religious instruction. Of course, they are allowed to study religion as a subject just like they study ants or frogs or anything else. But by definition, the state universities are not allowed to give religious instruction. Now we will go on to the next verse which is the last verse of Prahlada’s reply which gives the solution

TEXT 32

naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghriṁ
spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad-arthaḥ
mahīyasāṁ pāda-rajo-’bhiṣekaṁ
niṣkiñcanānāṁ na vṛṇīta yāvat

TRANSLATION

Unless they smear upon their bodies the dust of the lotus feet of a Vaiṣṇava completely freed from material contamination, persons very much inclined toward materialistic life cannot be attached to the lotus feet of the Lord, who is glorified for His uncommon activities. Only by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious and taking shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord in this way can one be freed from material contamination.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

Becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious brings about anartha-apagamaḥ, the disappearance of all anarthas, the miserable conditions we have unnecessarily accepted. The material body is the basic principle of these unwanted miserable conditions. The entire Vedic civilization is meant to relieve one from these unwanted miseries, but persons bound by the laws of nature do not know the destination of life.

COMMENT

That was Prahalada’s first statement; “na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ.”

PURPORT (continued)

As described in the previous verse, īśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ: they are conditioned by the three strong modes of material nature. The education that keeps the conditioned soul bound life after life is called materialistic education. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has explained that materialistic education expands the influence of māyā. Such an education induces the conditioned soul to be increasingly attracted to materialistic life and to stray further and further away from liberation from unwanted miseries.

One may ask why highly educated persons do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The reason is explained in this verse. Unless one takes shelter of a bona fide, fully Kṛṣṇa conscious spiritual master, there is no chance of understanding Kṛṣṇa. The educators, scholars, and big political leaders worshiped by millions of people cannot understand the goal of life and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for they have not accepted a bona fide spiritual master and the Vedas. Therefore in the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad (3.2.3) it is said, nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena: one cannot become self-realized simply by having an academic education, by presenting lectures in an erudite way (pravacanena labhyaḥ), or by being an intelligent scientist who discovers many wonderful things. One cannot understand Kṛṣṇa unless one is graced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Only one who has surrendered to a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa and taken the dust of his lotus feet can understand Kṛṣṇa.

COMMENT

So here, Prahlada gives the answer that unless one smears one’s body with the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee of the Lord one cannot become Krishna conscious. Indirectly he is telling his father that “You don’t have to worry about becoming Krishna conscious because you will never bow down to any devotee, you will never bow down to anyone. And so, you don’t have to worry about becoming Krishna conscious. Only someone who is humble enough to bow to the lotus feet of the Lord’s devotee can become Krishna conscious.” Lord Chaitanya who in one sense is the founder of the Hare Krishna movement who appeared in India five hundred years ago left only eight verses known as Śikṣāṣṭakam and once one disciple asked Srila Prabhupada that the spiritual master is so important in Krishna consciousness, where does the spiritual master appear in the Śikṣāṣṭakam. And Srila Prabhupada replied, tṛṇād api sunīcena, taror api sahiṣṇunā amāninā mānadena, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street.

So, when one is humble when one actually feels oneself to be lowly and fallen, then one can bow down to a knowledgeable Vaishnava. One can surrender to a spiritual master. But generally, the process of material education is quite different from the process of spiritual education because in material education the students are taught not to accept any authority on faith, but to use their intelligence to question everything. We cannot see it with our eyes, we cannot touch it with our hands, we cannot see it even with the most powerful telescopes, so how will we get knowledge of the spiritual world and the goal of life. We can only get knowledge by hearing from some authority who has knowledge; not by any other means. And the original authority is God Himself; the perfect authority is God Himself. And he gives instruction to his direct students and they in turn give instruction to their direct students and they in turn give instruction to their direct students and thus there is a disciplic succession. And the disciplic succession is quite opposed to the seminal succession where someone becomes a guru because his father was a guru by birth. So here, the fact is that Lord Krishna instructed Brahma and Brahma instructed Narada and Narada instructed Prahlada. So, the knowledge that Prahlada got from Narada was as good as the knowledge that Brahma got from the Lord directly and therefore the knowledge is perfect.

PURPORT (continued)

First one must understand how to get out of the clutches of māyā. The only means is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. 

COMMENT

Because the material world is like a prison house, we are captive in the material world and we are forced to suffer the punishments of maya which come in the form of repeated birth, disease, old age, and death, and other miseries; the threefold miseries—miseries caused by other living entities, miseries caused by acts of nature and miseries caused by our own bodies and minds. So, we are punished in the material world and we are held captive in the material world. We are not free to move at will, even within the material world, we are not free to move freely what to speak of leaving the material world and going to the spiritual world. So, we are actually imprisoned. So first one must understand how to get out of the clutches of maya. The only means is to become Krishna conscious. In Bhagavad-gītā Krishna says, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg 7.14], that the material nature which consists of the three modes is very difficult to overcome but one who surrenders to Krishna can easily overcome it. And here the method of surrender to Krishna is explained that by surrendering to the pure devotee who surrendered to Krishna one can become free from maya.

PURPORT (continued)

And to become Kṛṣṇa conscious very easily, one must take shelter of a realized soul — a mahat, or mahātmā — whose only interest is to engage in the service of the Supreme Lord. As the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (9.13):

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha
daivīṁ prakṛtiṁ āśritāḥ
bhajanty ananya-manaso
jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam

“O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.” 

COMMENT

So, the great souls who are surrendered to Lord Krishna are not under the material nature but they are under the divine nature. And one who surrenders unto such a great soul also comes under the spiritual nature.

PURPORT (continued)

Therefore, to end the unwanted miseries of life, one must become a devotee.

yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ

“One who has unflinching devotional faith in Kṛṣṇa consistently manifests all the good qualities of Kṛṣṇa and the demigods.” (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.18.12)

COMMENT

So, one could say, well one has to be educated in order to develop good qualities or good character which is true. But here, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says that if one just becomes fully Krishna conscious, free from material attachments, one will consistently manifest all good qualities. One doesn’t need to be trained to develop good qualities outside Krishna consciousness.

PURPORT (continued)

yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ
prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

“Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed.” (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.23)

COMMENT

So, one who has faith in guru and Krishna gets the Vedic knowledge revealed to him within the heart by the grace of the Lord and the spiritual master. So again, the process of knowledge is very different. The material process is not to take anything on faith although indirectly they do take things on faith but they place their faith in their intelligence and in their senses. But here, to get spiritual knowledge one must place one’s faith in Krishna and spiritual master.

PURPORT (continued)

yam evaiṣa vṛṇute tena labhyas
tasyaiṣa ātmā vivṛṇute tanūṁ svām

“The Lord is obtained only by one whom He Himself chooses. To such a person He manifests His own form.” (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.3)

COMMENT

So, one can understand the Lord whom the Lord has favored. In other words, if the Lord chooses to reveal Himself to someone then one can know the Lord and the Lord will reveal Himself to a devotee who pleases the Lord. And the best way to please the Lord is to serve and please the Lord’s devotee.

PURPORT (continued)

These are Vedic injunctions. One must take shelter of a self-realized spiritual master, not a materially educated scholar or politician. One must take shelter of a niṣkiñcana, a person engaged in devotional service and free from material contamination. That is the way to return home, back to Godhead.

COMMENT

So earlier, Srila Prabhupada mentioned that there is always a difference of opinion between devotees and demons. And such is true in the past and in the present and it will be true in the future. And we often have experience that we as devotees cannot convince the materialists, nor can the materialists convince us as devotees. So, we cannot prove that they are wrong and they cannot prove that we are wrong. We cannot convince them and they cannot convince us. So what is the difference? The difference is the result of the processes. Yes, we can’t prove that we are right and they are wrong, and they can’t prove that they are right and we are wrong. But as they say the proof is in the pudding. If one becomes Krishna conscious, he becomes happy and liberated from the material miseries. And if one becomes expert in material affairs, he becomes more entangled in the material actions and reactions. And therefore, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said that materialist education expands the influence of maya or illusion. Because the students begin from the presumption that the material world is everything and that the way to happiness is to exploit material nature. And then they are taught how to exploit the material nature better. and they become more and more entangled with the material complexities. Therefore, they are just like blind people following other blind people and they all end up being completely entangled in material actions and reactions. So, one should not follow a blind person. One should follow someone who has vision and the spiritual master is described in Bhagavad-gītā as tattva-darśī, he has seen the truth. So we want to follow him and the result will be liberation from material miseries and happiness in devotional service. and that is the difference.

I recently received a letter from a friend in South Africa who is a healer and she, as part of her medical practice, attends various seminars and she recently attended a course which gave a lot of emphasis to DNA, and the whole theory of life arising from matter and being transmitted through DNA. And because she never really had much contact with devotees who were knowledgeable in modern scientific theories and our response to them, she didn’t really know how to answer the presentation of the scientific materialists. and in her mind, she was quite confused. But she also wrote that she knows that she is happiest in the association of devotees and she is happiest when she chants Hare Krishna. So, even though her mind was confused by the different theories, her heart was content and peaceful and happy with Krishna consciousness with, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ.

So, the question may arise why would a devotee go to the university. Well in an ordinary sense one answer is that devotees may also play parts in varnashrama which is the scientific system of social organization and spiritual progression mentioned in the Vedas. So a devotee can be a teacher, a devotee can be a doctor, a devotee can be an accountant, a devotee can be an administrator, a devotee can be a farmer, a devotee can be a musician and he will require training. And even in India, as I mentioned, there are gurus who teach music, there are gurus who teach military arts they are gurus for every department of knowledge and Veda literally means knowledge; it includes all different types of knowledge. And there is the Ayurveda which is medical knowledge, there is the Shilpa shastra which is architecture, and there is Dhanush Veda which is military science. So, one can be trained for one’s particular profession. But within the Vedic society the brahmans or the educators are especially important because they are the guides and teachers for all others. So, we also want devotees as professors, even the acharyas in India used to be educated in institutions where they learned not only Krishna consciousness but where they learned logic and different schools of thought and argument so that they could reply to them. So, we also want devotees who know what the material scientists say so that we can reply to them, and clarify things for people like the healer from South Africa.

It is quite interesting that that when teachers of Prahlada Maharaja asked him how he become Krishna consciousness, Prahlada gave the answer that Lord Vishnu had changed his consciousness and now his consciousness was naturally attracted to Lord Vishnu. The teachers became very angry with Prahlada and they gave a very apt analogy. They compared the family of the demons, of course when we say demons, people may find a negative kind of notation in it but to the demons they are happy to be demons, Daityas. So the teachers compare the dynasty if the demons to a forest of sandalwood trees, and they compared Prahlada to a thorn tree that had somehow sprouted up in the sandalwood forest. They compared Vishnu to an axe that would take the wood from the thorn tree as a handle because in order to cut a nice sandalwood tree you need an axe. But the axe is not just the blade; the axe also requires a handle, and the handle is made of wood. They surmised that Lord Vishnu was going to use Prahlada, who was born in the dynasty of demons, to destroy the dynasty. So, one could apply the analogy in the other way and say that the devotees can take material knowledge from the materialists and use the material knowledge to destroy the materialists. Of course, we don’t really want to destroy the materialists, but we want to destroy or dismantle the materialistic mentality that keeps them bound to the material world in the repetition of birth and death. And in a broader sense, one can use anything in devotional service. One can even use ordinary knowledge in devotional service. And it is not considered outside of devotional service to learn something that can be used in devotional service. Of course, some tension is good, some challenge is good, and these are just some thoughts I had. Others are welcome to speak, and I don’t have any monopoly on thoughts on the subject. Anyone can say anything.

Devotee: One thing I wanted to ask you then, there are people who are using their position in an academic world propagating anti-materialism, but they are not coming out and spreading Krishna’s name and glory. But still, they are expressing their views against materialistic people who are engrossed in materialism. So, I was just thinking, are they pious? What contributes them doing that? I know one thing was that it may be just a profession, but would you say that they are pious? They must believe in what they are doing.

Giriraj Swami: Well, because I don’t know who you are referring to, two people came to mind. One, well anyway, maybe it is not good to get too specific. Yes, there can be pious people in academia, and they could be trying to further some sort of higher consciousness within academia in spite of the system. Some theories or philosophies are antagonistic to God consciousness, and some are neutral, none of what will be taught in the university here at least will be openly favorable to God consciousness, but some things are neutral. I read a statement in a book on the New Testament where the author says he explains the critical study of the background to the New Testament and the actual texts within the New Testament. And he addresses the question of how a believer will enter the field and deal with it. And he says that as a historian, and he is speaking about himself as the author, that as a historian he will not say that one theology is right or better than another theology. He won’t make any comment on the value of any theology, but he will simply write as a historian, to the best of his ability what took place, what was the historical context when Jesus came, and what were the influences on the people of the time and who might have written what and when he might have written it and why he might have written it the way he did.

Now he may say that he favors the Gospel of John over something else, but when he says so, he is not speaking as a historian, he is speaking in another capacity. But he says that in the book, he is speaking as a historian and being a historian is independent of being a believer. You can be a historian and be a believer, you can be a historian and be a non-believer. It is like being an architect; an architect can be a believer and an architect and be a non-believer, but when he is engaged in his craft, he is an architect and it is not an issue if he is a believer or not a believer. So, the same thing with some approaches to science and some approaches to science, depending on the ideology behind it, one can be a believer in God and accept science as a method of investigation and knowledge. But there are some scientists or groups of scientists that have a whole ideology which is antagonistic to the very idea that there can be anything that exists beyond atoms and molecules. So, their position would be antagonistic to a theistic point of view. But within the rules that the scientists have established or that the academy has established for scholarship and proof, we cannot defeat them. Well again, we could, but in a deeper sense we could, but according to the rules they have set up, it is very difficult. As long as you stay within the rules they have set up, and they can’t defeat us either.

In the study of consciousness, they can’t prove that consciousness does not exist, and we can’t prove to them that consciousness does exist, although it is so obvious to everyone that it exists. Or they may say, well, consciousness arises from a certain combination of matter, and we can give so many arguments which are very clear to us and to many others that consciousness is present when the spiritual energy is in the body, but we can’t prove the existence of the soul to them. It is it could be completely obvious to us that the soul exists, and when the soul leaves the body, the body is dead and there is no consciousness. And we can say to them that if consciousness arises from a combination of matter then, when the person is dead, why don’t you just restore the chemical arrangement and bring the person back to life? And they will say, well, one day we will. And we can’t prove they won’t and they can’t prove they will. So, it comes back to a matter of faith. We have faith in the Vedas and the spiritual master, and they have faith in science. They have faith in their own abilities, their own intellect, and we have faith in Krishna and Krishna’s representatives.

Devotee: I am thinking about devotee being able to be a devotee and an architect and musician in these other things, and I don’t understand if the goal is to become free of material desires, our physical self, and it seems like the only valid way that I can think of to pursue these pursuits, I guess, is to provide for oneself monetarily. That is not a bad thing; to be able to have food or clothes or whatever you need but that seems contradictory to renouncing our material self if we are doing something to provide for our materials can you help me with that

Giriraj Swami: Yes. I mentioned earlier about varnashrama. varnashrama is a system of gradual elevation and in varnashrama one can marry, have a family, and work and earn, and provide for one’s family and still make progress in Krishna consciousness gradually. If someone is very elevated, he doesn’t need to worry about his physical necessities because Krishna will provide. Somehow, I just thought of Jesus Christ saying something about the lilies in the field, they don’t have to worry about where their clothes are going to come from. So one who is fully surrendered to God doesn’t have to worry. Just like God takes care of so many creatures in nature, they don’t go to the university, they don’t get degrees, they don’t get jobs but God provides for them. So, if one is actually able to fully surrender to God and be fully Krishna conscious, God will provide for him and he can absorb himself in hearing and chanting about Krishna without any diversion. But for most people especially in the present age, it is recommended to marry, have a family, provide for one’s family, be a respected member of society, and be Krishna conscious. And within one’s position and to one’s capacity, bring others to Krishna consciousness.

Our guru was Srila Prabhupada, and his guru was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura father and guru in a way was Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was a magistrate in India during the British rule. And he occupied it was like the highest position that an Indian could hold in the British rule. and he was he was very well accepted in society. And when the British had some problem to do with the Hindus, they often consulted him and deputed him to deal with some of the issues. And if you see pictures of him sometimes, he was dressed in, not the dress of a mendicant but the dress of a well-placed person in society. And his son Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said that he would consider his mission to be successful when the high court judges wore tilak in the courtroom. So, it is not that we want all the high court judges to retire and go to the forest and chant Hare Krishna although at a certain stage they should, when they are old enough. That is also part of varnashrama-dharma, that after living within grihastha ashram for some years with wife and children, one will eventually retire from materialistic activities and with one’s wife engaged together, well with or without one’s wife but it could be with one’s wife, that one engages more fully in spiritual activities, after having gone through marriage and a career and so on. And generally, it is better to marry and have a career and then when one is sort of satiated, move on to the next stage than to prematurely or artificially try to jump up and be a great renunciate when one really isn’t ready for it. And then later when it is awkward you don’t want to come back to do the things that ordinarily you would have done earlier.

So Lord Chaitanya, he had a disciple named Raghunatha dasa. In fact, tomorrow is the appearance day of Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. So Raghunatha dasa, at a very young age, wanted to join Lord Chaitanya. He ran away from home to join Lord Chaitanya and Lord Chaitanya sent him back home and said, “Don’t be a crazy fellow.” And then he spoke about markaṭa-vairāgya; vairāgya means renunciation and markaṭa means monkey. Someone could go to a holy place like Vrindavan and look like a mendicant, but actually, be more like a monkey because monkeys are like mendicants. They don’t wear clothes they just eat fruits from the trees and they live in the forest, but every monkey has two dozen girlfriends. So, Lord Chaitanya said, “Don’t be a crazy fellow go back home and when your inner sense of renunciation is more mature then you can join me. But on some impulse or some sentiment or some madness, don’t leave home and try to join me prematurely.”

And specifically in the present age, as I mentioned, most people are recommended to live at home and be Krishna conscious at home. And from their position as family men, as professionals, or whatever, try to be Krishna conscious and try to interest others of Krishna consciousness, and of course associate with more advanced devotees; that is most important. And then that that by one’s own practices and superior association, one will make progress. And it is not even necessarily so that someone who has a place in varnashrama is there because he is not qualified for direct pure Krishna consciousness. One could be a pure devotee but still be playing a part in varnashrama just to set an example for others like Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He was a liberated soul but still he played a part in society and he set an example for others and even today devotees like us take inspiration from the example of Bhaktivinoda Thakura; how one can be responsible in society and mix with people in society and still be Krishna conscious and preach not just be Krishna conscious himself but preach also. And he elaborated a whole system called nāma-haṭṭa which specifically enables married people to take part in spreading Krishna consciousness, that you don’t have to be a renunciate to preach or to spread the message even as a householder. But one is actually able to be happy without getting married and having a family and working; then he can certainly save a lot of time which he can devote to spiritual practices, service to Krishna. But one shouldn’t artificially try to do it. But if one tries and fails in an ultimate sense there is no loss even then because whatever he is done will help him will be to his eternal credit. But generally, it is better to go step by step; slow but sure.