SB 3.1.17

Giriraj Swami: Reading from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Canto Three, Chapter One, “Questions by Vidura,”

TEXT 17

sa nirgataḥ kaurava-puṇya-labdho
gajāhvayāt tīrtha-padaḥ padāni
anvākramat puṇya-cikīrṣayorvyām
adhiṣṭhito yāni sahasra-mūrtiḥ

TRANSLATION

By his piety, Vidura achieved the advantages of the pious Kauravas. After leaving Hastināpura, he took shelter of many places of pilgrimages, which are the Lord’s lotus feet. With a desire to gain a high order of pious life, he traveled to holy places where thousands of transcendental forms of the Lord are situated.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

Vidura was undoubtedly a highly elevated and pious soul; otherwise he would not have taken his birth in the Kaurava family. To have high parentage, to possess wealth, to be highly learned, and to have great personal beauty are all due to past pious acts. But such pious possessions are not sufficient for obtaining the grace of the Lord and being engaged in His transcendental loving service. Vidura considered himself less pious, and therefore he decided to travel to all the great places of pilgrimage in the world in order to achieve greater piety and advance nearer to the Lord. At that time, Lord Kṛṣṇa was personally present in the world, and Vidura could have at once approached Him directly, but he did not do so because he was not sufficiently freed from sin. One cannot be one-hundred-percent devoted to the Lord unless and until he is completely free from all effects of sin. Vidura was conscious that by the association of the diplomatic Dhṛtarāṣṭra and Duryodhana he had lost his piety and was therefore not fit to associate at once with the Lord. In Bhagavad-gītā (7.28) this is confirmed in the following verse:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

Persons who are sinful asuras like Kaṁsa and Jarāsandha cannot think of Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth. Only those who are pure devotees, those who follow the regulative principles of religious life as prescribed in the scriptures, are able to engage themselves in karma-yoga and then jñāna-yoga and thereafter, by pure meditation, can understand pure consciousness. When God consciousness is developed, one can take advantage of the association of pure devotees. Syān mahat-sevayā viprāḥ puṇya-tīrtha-niṣevaṇāt: one is able to associate with the Lord even during the existence of this life.

Places of pilgrimages are meant for eradicating the sins of the pilgrims, and they are distributed all over the universe just to give facility to all concerned for attaining pure existence and God realization. One should not be satisfied, however, merely by visiting the places of pilgrimage and performing one’s prescribed duties; he should be eager to meet the great souls who are already there, engaged in the service of the Lord. In each and every place of pilgrimage, the Lord is present in His various transcendental forms.

These forms are called arcā-mūrtis, or forms of the Lord which can be easily appreciated by the common man. The Lord is transcendental to our mundane senses. He cannot be seen with our present eyes, nor can He be heard with our present ears. To the degree that we have entered into the service of the Lord or to the proportion that our lives are freed from sins, we can perceive the Lord. But even though we are not free from sins, the Lord is kind enough to allow us the facility of seeing Him in His arcā-mūrtis in the temple. The Lord is all-powerful, and therefore He is able to accept our service by presentation of His arcā form. No one, therefore, should foolishly think the arcā in the temple to be an idol. Such an arcā-mūrti is not an idol but the Lord Himself, and to the proportion that one is free from sins, he is able to know the significance of the arcā-mūrti. The guidance of a pure devotee is therefore always required.

In the land of Bhāratavarṣa there are many hundreds and thousands of places of pilgrimage distributed all over the country, and by traditional practice the common man visits such holy places during all seasons of the year. Some of the arcā representations of the Lord situated in different places of pilgrimage are mentioned herewith. The Lord is present at Mathurā (the birthplace of Lord Kṛṣṇa) as Ādi-keśava; the Lord is present at Purī (Orissa) as Lord Jagannātha (also known as Puruṣottama); He is present at Allahabad (Prayāga) as Bindu-mādhava; at Mandara Hill He is present as Madhusūdana. In the Ānandāraṇya, He is known as Vāsudeva, Padmanābha and Janārdana; at Viṣṇukāñcī, He is known as Viṣṇu; and at Māyāpura, He is known as Hari. There are millions and billions of such arcā forms of the Lord distributed all over the universe. All these arcā-mūrtis are summarized in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta in the following words:

sarvatra prakāśa tāṅra — bhakte sukha dite
jagatera adharma nāśi’ dharma sthāpite

“The Lord has so distributed Himself all over the universe just to give pleasure to the devotees, to give the common man facility to eradicate his sins, and to establish religious principles in the world.”

COMMENT

To learn from the example of Vidura and from the examples of so many great devotees discussed in the pages of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, one point that we can learn from Vidura here is that one should progress in spiritual life or Krishna consciousness gradually, step by step. In the purport, Srila Prabhupada mentions that Lord Krishna was personally present on the earth at the time. But Vidura was so humble he felt that he was not pure enough to immediately associate with the Lord. And therefore, he decided that he should rather visit the holy places of pilgrimage where the Lord is present in the form of thousands of deities and thus purify himself by the association of the deities in the holy places. Of course, the deities themselves make a place holy. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we read that by chanting the holy name of Krishna in a holy place, the effects of the chanting are multiplied ten thousand times. But Srila Prabhupada explains further in the purport, with reference to other authorities, that if one chants the holy name in front of the deity of the Lord or in a place where the deity has been duly installed, then the effects of one’s chanting are similarly multiplied by ten thousand times.

So, the place where the deity of the Lord is installed is also considered dhāma or a manifestation of dhāma where the Lord is present with all of His paraphernalia and associates. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada’s terms like New Dvaraka or New Vrindavan are quite appropriate because wherever the deity is installed, it is a holy place of pilgrimage. And therefore, devotees can get a similar benefit from visiting a holy place anywhere in the universe, whether it be in Los Angeles or New York or London or Tokyo or Johannesburg, anywhere. And this is the great mercy of Srila Prabhupada that he made Krishna consciousness available to people all over the world. Of course, Srila Prabhupada emphasized his books. His personal service or an important part of his personal service to his spiritual master was to translate various Vedic literatures into English with elaborate purports. But Srila Prabhupada also worked tirelessly to establish holy places throughout the world where the deities of Radha and Krishna, Jagannatha, Baladeva, and Subhadra, Gaura-Nitai, and others are installed. And he established an institution to give association to devotees and to innocent visitors. Because one should not just visit a holy place to see the deity or to take bath, but one should associate with the devotees who reside in the holy place. And therefore, Srila Prabhupada established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness so that people all over the world could get the association of devotees when they come to the temples to be purified.

So, we also have a sacred duty to give the type of association that will help people when they come to the temple to become elevated in Krishna consciousness. Srila Prabhupada was also concerned that devotees in ISKCON have the chance to come to India and spend time in the holy dhāmas there, especially Vrindavan and Mayapur. And from the very beginning, he wanted to establish centers there where his devotees could come. Of course, we do have, by Srila Prabhupada’s grace, the Krishna-Balarama Temple in Vrindavan and the Mayapur Chandrodaya Mandir in Mayapur. And there are now so many other temples of ISKCON in India. And then, of course, there are the deities installed by our previous acharyas. And they all welcome devotees and bless them with our spiritual knowledge. But still, of all the processes, the most important is the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. We find throughout the Vedic literatures that the most importance is given to the chanting of the holy names of the Lord.

Once, I happened to be in Srila Prabhupada’s room in Mayapur when one of his disciples, who was compiling the arcana-paddhati to give the rules and regulations for deity worship for the devotees happened to ask Srila Prabhupada about the book he was compiling under Srila Prabhupada’s direction. And Srila Prabhupada instructed him, “Don’t make it too complicated. In Kali-yuga, the main process is hari-nāma, and we should always remember that.” So, Srila Prabhupada gave us the essential processes of Krishna consciousness, and the process is deceptively easy. Some people cannot believe that just by chanting Hare Krishna, following the regulative principles, taking kṛṣṇa-prasāda, and serving Srila Prabhupada’s mission which is the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that one can achieve the highest perfection of life. I served in India, more or less, for thirty years, and I saw that there is a mentality of some people in India to think that the process has to be very complicated. If you tell them to just chant Hare Krishna, lead a pure life, and serve Gaura-Nitai, and they will achieve the highest perfection, they think it is too simple. They can’t be that easy and therefore, they go to yogis who teach them so many postures and difficult techniques. But part of Srila Prabhupada’s genius is that he presented a very intricate philosophy in very simple terms. He presented what could be made into a complicated process into a very simple one. But of course, as Srila Prabhupada also advised us, chanting is very simple, but maintaining the determination to chant is not so simple. But the process itself is very simple.

Srila Prabhupada and our acharyas have explained that everything is included in the holy name—Radha, Krishna, their pastimes, the entire spiritual world—all included in the holy name. Therefore, if one wants simply to chant the holy name, and if one is able to chant purely, then the entire spiritual world and all the conclusions of the Vedas can be revealed to him just by the simple process of chanting the holy name. But then again, Srila Prabhupada said, if one is inquisitive intellectually, there are so many books. There is a whole library of books on the science of Krishna consciousness. One is welcome to come and read the books, study, inquire, and practice. So that again was Srila Prabhupada’s genius that he presented Krishna consciousness in such a way that a simple person could just do some humble service and chant the holy name and attain the highest perfection. Yet, if someone wanted to go deeply into the philosophy, deeply into other practices of Krishna consciousness, he provided the facility. He provided books and encouraged them. But he always came back to the holy name, following Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and our predecessor acharyas. And that from pure chanting of the holy name of Krishna, the form of Krishna is revealed, the qualities of Krishna are revealed, the pastimes of Krishna are revealed—everything. And I think Many devotees who have been serving in the movement for many years have come to the same conclusion, that whatever we want spiritually can be achieved simply by chanting the holy names of Krishna and serving the pure devotees. As it is mentioned here, Syān mahat-sevayā viprāḥ puṇya-tīrtha-niṣevaṇāt. By serving the pure devotee who is freed from vice, a great service is done, and one develops an affinity for hearing the message of Lord Vasudeva.

Srila Prabhupada was very intelligent. He understood that people were coming to him at different levels of advancement from past births, from past pious activities, or past sinful activities. Therefore, he created a mission that would embrace everyone and help elevate everyone step by step. So, we find in the Second Chapter of the First Canto, step by step, verse by verse, how one can advance. Therefore, even if one doesn’t have much taste for the message of Vasudeva at first, but if he just serves the pure devotee, if he works to serve the mission of the pure devotee or serve the mission of spreading Krishna consciousness through the direction of the pure devotee, under the direction of Srila Prabhupada in our case, one will develop the taste for hearing and chanting about Krishna more. And here, we should follow the example of Vidura and just progress step by step in a way that is natural. Not artificially, “Oh, Krishna is here, let us just run to Krishna.” But no, Vidura was humble. He thought, Let me become qualified first. Let me visit the holy places. Let me become free from sin. And he had faith that by following the process step by step, he would get the result. Srila Prabhupada was concerned also that we proceed step by step. We don’t try to jump over any of the steps or imagine that we are more than we are. But to proceed slowly but surely.

There is another mystery to Srila Prabhupada’s presentation of Krishna consciousness, or Srila Prabhupada’s mission, and that is that by serving the mission, even at what might appear to be the expense of one’s personal advancement, one can actually make more advancements. Recently, I gave the example to one devotee that in previous times, a spiritual master would have an ashram and few disciples, and he would personally guide each disciple step by step according to the need of the disciple, according to the capacity of the disciple. But, Srila Prabhupada opened a huge institution where he had thousands and thousands of disciples to be guided. It is like in education, the difference between the tutorial system and the lecture system. In the tutorial system which Srila Prabhupada has actually recommended for Gurukula in certain cases, the students sit in the classroom, and each one does his own work at his own place. There is no lecture because there are so many students of different levels in the one classroom, and there is just one teacher in one classroom. As each student masters a lesson, he or she goes to the teacher, and then the teacher will give the next lesson. Or if the student is stuck on a particular lesson, the teacher will give further instruction to help the student with the present lesson so he can go on to the next lesson. Therefore, each student progresses at his own rate, under the personal guidance of the teacher.

The other system is the lecture system, where there may be different students of different levels in the classroom. Of course ideally, the students should be of similar levels, but there are always different levels, even in the first year, second year, third year. The teacher will give one lecture for all the students, and all the students have to get something from the lecture. The teacher will give something for everyone from the lecture, but there are certain basic principles that the teacher wants everyone to get from the lecture. So, in a general sense, ISKCON is like a huge university with the lecture system. But the university is so important to Krishna, to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, to Srila Prabhupada, that even though one may think, “Well, I already know what the lecture is teaching, and I think I should go out for more advanced instruction,” still, if the more advanced students leave the university, how would the university continue? Therefore, my own conviction is that if someone stays in the university and assists the professor, assists Srila Prabhupada with the presentation of Krishna consciousness in the general way he gave for the students in the university, he will be blessed by Srila Prabhupada’s mercy, and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s mercy, to make all the advancement he could possibly make if he left the university to pursue an independent course of advanced study, or so-called advanced study. And therefore it is my personal conviction that if one does remain faithful to Srila Prabhupada and his mission which is meant to be executed by his institution, by ISKCON, one would not be the loser in any way. One will get all the benefit one could get, if not more, and probably more, than he could get if he pursued an independent course of more advanced study for so-called advanced study.

Therefore, the process actually is very simple. When Lord Chaitanya was asked on numerous occasions, “What is the duty of Vaishnava?” Lord Chaitanya gave the answer, to chant the holy names and to serve the Vaishnavas. And we certainly have ample opportunity to chant the holy names and serve the Vaishnavas here in ISKCON. And with faith in simple instructions that we have received through disciplic succession, we can be assured of complete success, provided we follow the process without offenses. Srila Rupa Gosvami has, after listing sixty-four items of devotional service in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, he has listed five that are so powerful that even a slight association with any one of them can awaken ecstatic love of Godhead. But we may be in association with many of the five processes, or all of the five processes, but not awaken the love of Godhead so quickly because we don’t fulfill the condition of being offenseless. And of course, being offenseless is also not such an easy thing. But if we try to avoid offenses and engage in the simple process of chanting the holy names and serving the devotees, then gradually, even if we are subject to some, remaining effects of sin or offense, all those will also be purified and washed away, and we will achieve the supreme perfection. Hare Krishna.

Are there any questions or comments? Srivasa Prabhu?

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:29:35]

Giriraj Swami: Well, everything has different degrees of elaboration. In other words, just in the one word Krishna, Prabhupada gave us everything because everything is included in Krishna. But still, he gave us the whole mantra Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, and he gave us the deities, he gave us the temples, he gave us Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he gave us the purports, and he gave us the association of devotees. So, he did give us everything, but everything can also be elaborated more. He gave us everything, but still, for example, Satsvarupa Maharaja asked Srila Prabhupada’s permission to write his biography. So, he wrote his biography, Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta. And I know many devotees who get more inspiration from Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta, perhaps than from any other book. Prabhupada gave us many things even without Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta but there is more of everything in Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta.

I have heard in several lectures that Srila Prabhupada has spoken about reading books, and of course, he wanted us to read his books. He wrote the book so we could read them. But in the lectures, in some of them, in the discussion, Srila Prabhupada has said that actually whatever we need for our own advancement, we can get just by chanting the holy names and serving the spiritual master. But for preaching and convincing others, we need to read the books. And then again, on occasions and even within his books, he has said that, “What I have given within my books Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, The Nectar of Devotion, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta is sufficient for preaching,” and other contexts, just sufficient. But again, he has given us the Bhāgavatam, he has given us the purport in the Bhāgavatam, and he has asked us to speak according to our realization. So that means that he has given us everything, but also part of the everything is the class and the association of the devotees and the discussion of among devotees. But I believe that it maybe inconceivable, but I believe that although Prabhupada gave us everything, we can always get more of everything out of everything he gave us. But to say that he didn’t give us everything, I believe, is not accurate because he did give us everything. He gave us everything that is sufficient to preach Krishna consciousness and to go back home back to Godhead.

I am personally very inspired by examples of devotees within the movement who I am very confident have gone back home back to Godhead. And they did so on the basis of chanting Hare Krishna and following the regulative principles and serving Prabhupada’s movement. I wouldn’t say that they never read any books other than Prabhupada’s books, and I don’t think that Prabhupada intended us not to read the books except the ones he translated. And I wouldn’t say that they never heard from devotees who had never read other books or associated with even devotees outside ISKCON who read other books. But basically, they were ISKCON devotees. They spent their whole spiritual lives in ISKCON following the basic principles Srila Prabhupada gave us, chanting and working to spread Krishna consciousness. And I think that one example, there is so many examples, actually here now naturally I think of Gauri dasi because from what I have understood she achieved a very exalted state of Krishna consciousness just by chanting and distributing books and serving. But one which I have heard described to me vividly concerns the wife of the temple president in Scotland. She got cancer and, in the last weeks of her last days, she was excited because details of her eternal form and service to Krishna in the spiritual world were being revealed to her. And I believe with complete simplicity she was just explaining what she was experiencing. Every day, more was being revealed to her. And from what I have heard, I never met her personally, from what I have heard, she would have been considered just a regular devotee in ISKCON. She worked hard, she helped her husband who was temple president, she used to type and just do regular services in the temple. And in the end, she really realized everything. And I believe many, I can’t say how many; many, many, devotees who spent their spiritual lives serving in ISKCON, who have gone to Godhead. And I take inspiration from their examples, even in a way I take shelter from their examples and even of them in their exalted positions where they are now.

So, we are talking about the basic ingredients both for becoming Krishna conscious and going back to Godhead and preaching Krishna consciousness. I think that we can get everything within the basic framework Srila Prabhupada gave us. And even if we can get more knowledge in a way from someone outside ISKCON, other things may come with it. We may want only the pure knowledge, but other things may come with it that we may not want. And a few years ago, when I was in India for Kartik at Radha-kuṇḍa actually, I wasn’t staying at Radha-kuṇḍa but the discussion took place at Radha-kuṇḍa. And I was speaking with some of the senior sannyasi godbrothers in ISKCON, and they all more or less came to the same conclusion that even though it might be harder to get some of the knowledge just within the association of devotees within ISKCON, they would rather do it that way and get it from people whose faith in Prabhupada they know is very congenial to their faith in Prabhupada, than to go outside to get the knowledge which might in a sense be more easily accessible, but which might come with other things that they might consider not so conducive to their faith in Srila Prabhupada and with their relationship with Srila Prabhupada.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:39:08]

Giriraj Swami: His question is, what should be our attitude towards other Vaishnava devotees?

Our attitude should be to respect them as Vaishnavas and to encourage them, but it doesn’t mean also that if they attack, then you just lay down and play dead, and that is a very special circumstance. But in general, we should respect them and encourage them and respect their choice and the path they have chosen.

Yes, Archida Prabhu.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:39:58]

Giriraj Swami: I agree with you. I think what you said about the service attitude is very important. Srila Prabhupada said he only asked his guru Maharaja one question, “How can I serve you?” And when we were serving Srila Prabhupada in India, we might have time to chant sixteen rounds, but we did not have much time to do anything else and Srila Prabhupada encouraged us.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:42:38] There is no question about that. He wants to enter very deeply into the teachings of the Bhāgavatam he is given us. So that is why it is stated that those five very important factors, they should all be preceded when we go to the holy place is himself. But everyone should be everyone has to have an obligation for what he gave us.

Giriraj Swami: I agree with what you say. I think that implicit in what you said, there is a consideration that you didn’t make explicit, which is association by vāṇī, and association by vapuḥ. I think we all agree that association with an advanced devotee or pure devotees is essential, and in fact, in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, as you know as well, Rupa Gosvami’s definition of sādhu-saṅga is sajatiyasaye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare, the one more advanced than oneself. But I think that implicit in the discussion of association is the two types of association, vāṇī and vapuḥ. And Srila Prabhupada really emphasized for us, for whatever reason, he really emphasized for us vāṇī. And I believe [Break in audio 00:46:27]

My godbrother, very nice devotee, Sacinandana Swami, analyzing the verse by Rupa Gosvami about sādhu-saṅga, said that a devotee by nature will feel that other devotees are more advanced than him. And unless we feel that the other devotee is more advanced than us, we won’t really be able to benefit from the other devotee’s association. So, I don’t want to use myself as an example, but it is just clarity began with me and Sacinandana Swami. But, I could think and be convinced that he is more advanced than I am and that I can gain so much from his association. He could think that I am more advanced than he is and that he can gain from my association. and I think that at least I haven’t come to the stage where I think that there is no one in ISKCON who is more advanced than I am. And therefore, even in a personal sense, if I want to associate with someone more advanced, I have to go outside of ISKCON. But even otherwise, there is also the issue of associating with Srila Prabhupada. At the same time, I don’t deny the experience of someone who is enlivened by the association of an advanced devotee, even if he is not in ISKCON. I don’t deny the validity of the experience. But I don’t consider such association to be the only way that one can associate with an advanced devotee or that the devotee may advance one’s self. 

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:48:50]

Giriraj Swami: That is true. And I think that if we were convinced that Prabhupada was around the corner giving a lecture, we would run to it.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:49:42]

Giriraj Swami: Very well said. I have had, obviously, discussions on the subject with other devotees. And one is with His Holiness Radhanath Swami, and His Holiness Radhanath Swami is convinced as I believe Srila Prabhupada was and in my own way I am, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya that by serving Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who gives the combine form of Radha and Krishna, one can achieve the service of Radha and Krishna. And with his devotees, he emphasized caitanya-līlā, because caitanya-līlā are much easier for us to approach and appreciate. Our activities themselves are the same as caitanya-līlā, the saṅkīrtana movement. And our dress is the same, more or less. So, he believes that hearing and chanting about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is safer and easier. But at the same time, it will lead us to the same goal of Radha and Krishna. Because, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya, and here I just think of one quotation that has actually been an inspiration to me. Where Srila Prabhupada said that in order to approach Radha and Krishna, we need the mercy of Lord Chaitanya. In order to get the mercy of Lord Chaitanya, we need the mercy of Lord Nityananda, in order to get the mercy of Lord Nityananda, we need to approach people like Jagai and Madhai. So, I agree exactly with what you said. That Prabhupada wanted us to go deeper. But again, there is different ways of going deeper. One is by going to Vrindavan, studying scriptures, hearing from more advanced devotees, more knowledgeable devotees. And another is by realization or revelation.

Again, it is just my own experience. And I don’t recommend my experience as the standard for others. But my own experience is that although when I was in India, I did spend time in Vrindavan and I did study scripture and I did associate with advanced devotees, I feel that my actual realization has not suffered by staying in the West and doing things that aren’t sādhu-saṅga, nāma-kīrtana, bhāgavata-śravaṇa, and so on. And again, I quote an instruction Prabhupada gave to me. But again, it is from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. And he quoted the verse to me in India at a time when none of us practically had time to read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And he emphasized that by serving the person bhāgavata, or by reading the book Bhāgavata, one gets the same result. And he directly said that if you go on serving the person bhāgavata, all the truths of the book Bhāgavata will be revealed to you, even if you never read the book. And that is a conviction that is based on shastra, and it is also an experience that I have had. And I think it is such convictions that compel me to continue the way I am. And like I said, I don’t say that the way I am proceeding should be the way everyone proceeds, but it is based on scripture and it is working for me at my level. And therefore I can also accept the point of view that says that this will not work, that it has to be something else. In other words, that just serving the mission, and it is not just serving the mission, how can you serve the mission properly if you don’t change sixteen rounds and follow the regulative principles. It is like a show, but if one follows the basic principles and serves the mission, he can get very deep realizations. And to say that one can only get such realizations by associating with a more advanced devotee of a type that is not available in ISKCON, I think it is not doing justice to the potency of the process that Prabhupada has given us. But at the same time, we wouldn’t say that the other is wrong either. But I feel it can cause a disturbance if someone says that you can’t do this. If you do this, you might think it is Krishna consciousness, but it is actually maya, either way.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:57:45]

Giriraj Swami: I know we did college preaching in Orange County once together. She is saying, how can we recognize, who is a higher devotee, who is a lower devotee? And Pushpadanta Prabhu gave the answer indirectly that they are not all the same. Otherwise, why am I giving the class and not Bhakta Raghu, with due respect to Bhakta Rabhu.

What Pushpadanta Prabhu said actually contains a hidden truth to it. And that is that a very new devotee may not actually be able to distinguish very clearly. To a very new devotee, at least I know when we joined in the atmosphere in which we joined, we saw all the older devotees as advanced devotees, as pure devotees. At least, some of us did. But when you actually become more mature, it is like a child, for a child, everyone is bigger than him. But when the child begins to mature, he can see gradations of maturity or seniority. And therefore, the mature devotees, like the temple president or other mature devotees, choose the person to give the class because they may have a sense of who is more qualified to give the class than someone else, even though a new person might not. But again, we come back to the point that the safest position is to be respectful of all the devotees. And although at a certain stage, as Rupa Gosvami advises, one should distinguish between different categories of devotees and deal with them differently. He doesn’t give any permission to disrespect any devotee. It is just degrees of respect or degrees of surrender. And if one is in a position where he or she can’t really distinguish, if it is not a problem, then the safest thing is just to offer respects to everyone, which is the highest platform. That is the irony. It is like when you first walk in the door, you see everyone as a pure devotee, you offer respects everyone. When you actually become a mahā-bhāgavata, you see everyone as pure devotee and offer respects to everyone. And I guess let the authorities decide who is appropriate to give the class because that is an answer also for someone else.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:02:15]

Giriraj Swami: Well, I don’t want to go too long, but I would say that Srila Prabhupada emphasized in relation to himself, that he was the founder acharya of the International Society of Krishna Consciousness and founder acharya means he is the supreme authority. It may sound sacrilegious to say but within ISKCON, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is not the supreme authority. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura is not the supreme authority. Srila Rupa Gosvami is not the supreme authority. He is in the sense that he is the supreme authority for rūpānuga Vaishnavas. but it is not for us to accept Srila Prabhupada as the founder acharya to make a decision for ISKCON based on our independent conclusion about what Rupa Gosvami would want. I don’t if you understand what I mean.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:05:15]

Giriraj Swami: Okay, let us take a simple example. As I understand and I heard from devotees associated with Srila Sridhra Maharaja, who heard it from him, that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had three standards for how many rounds the disciples should chant every day. If one had time, sixty-four rounds. If one didn’t have so much time, sixteen rounds. And if one was really busy in service, four rounds. But at least four rounds. Now, that is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. For us, Srila Prabhupada has said minimum sixteen for everyone. And maybe this is what I was talking about the difference between the lecture hall and the tutorial system. So, it is not that Srila Prabhupada is superior to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Obviously, he would be the first one to say he is not. But within ISKCON, by this definition of ISKCON, he is the founder acharya and he is the supreme authority. So, if he says sixteen rounds minimum for us, we don’t say, well, for some, it is sixteen but for some, it can be four if they are really busy. And if they are not really busy, then for some, it should be sixty-four. That is the type of application I mean.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:06:55]

Giriraj Swami: To my knowledge, Srila Prabhupada never said that if you are really busy that four rounds is enough.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:07:15]

Giriraj Swami: But I am not discussing Sridhra Maharaja, I am discussing the principle that Srila Prabhupada, as the founder acharya of ISKCON, is the supreme authority for devotees of ISKCON, by that definition of ISKCON.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:07:35]

Giriraj Swami: I am not talking about family. I accept them and I hope I am part of the same family but I am not talking about family, we are talking about the ISKCON institution.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:07:59]

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but there are branches of Lord Chaitanya’s tree. Srila Prabhupada said ISKCON is one of the branches, it doesn’t mean that there is no beauty in the other branches or there is no harmony among the branches, but ISKCON is a distinct branch of the Chaitanya tree.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:08:21]

Giriraj Swami: The ISKCON branch is the branch that is personally and specifically guided by Srila Prabhupada as the supreme authority of the ISKCON branch.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:08:34]

Giriraj Swami: What does dīkṣā have to do with it?

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:08:43]

Giriraj Swami: I think that Sripada Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, when he listed his śikṣā-guru, he had included Bhaktivedanta Swami, he had included Sridhra Swami, he had included Bon Maharaja, he had included people who in different ways were not in agreement with Srila Prabhupada or Srila Prabhupada was not in complete agreement with them. So that means that he had accepted śikṣā-gurus who were not in agreement with Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. But we in ISKCON are not at liberty to accept śikṣā that would be contrary or disagreeable to Srila Prabhupada. Now, you might have your own interpretation as to what would be agreeable to Srila Prabhupada, and I may have my interpretation. You may consider someone to be in harmony with Srila Prabhupada and I might not consider the same person to be in complete harmony with Srila Prabhupada. But ISKCON is the place where everything that goes on in it has to be in complete harmony with Srila Prabhupada in principle. It doesn’t mean that we don’t fail in harmony with, we do fail. We fail hundreds of thousands of millions of times, but our goal is to make our thinking, feeling, willing, and acting in harmony with Srila Prabhupada. That defines ISKCON. Prabhupada says follow the GBC. I may agree or disagree with the GBC personally, Prabhupada says follow the temple president. I may agree or disagree with the temple president personally. But because Prabhupada said it, out of obedience, I follow Prabhupada’s order. And I think that Prabhupada will be pleased by my effort to follow his order. And in the matter of following his appointed officers, Srila Prabhupada has said on many occasions when asked that, “You should follow my representative.” And then the devotee would ask, what if your representative isn’t representing you properly? And Srila Prabhupada said “You still have to follow.” And then the devotee would ask, what if he consistently misrepresents you? And then Prabhupada said, “I will correct him or I will replace him. But your advancement will be the same because you are following my order to follow him.” So, I think that is also a very important part of Prabhupada’s instruction that we cooperate for the sake of the mission, for the sake of ISKCON. And that is we accept a certain discipline, whether we personally agree with the person or not, whether we personally think the person is advanced or not. And that is one of the defining features of ISKCON. That is one of the defining features of accepting Srila Prabhupada as the founder acharya and as the supreme authority.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:12:40]

Giriraj Swami: I am all for honoring Vaishnavas, there is no question. I honor his attempt. I honor his service. I honor the help that he has given to so many devotees who have taken the help. That is not the issue at all. Well it might be, for me personally it is not, but it might be. And I can say openly again that we should appreciate the service of all Vaishnavas and offer respects to all Vaishnavas whether they are in ISKCON or not.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:13:35]

Giriraj Swami: Well, I do and I hope others do. But it wasn’t Srila Prabhupada’s instruction to any of us, to my knowledge, to accept Sri Narayana Maharaja as a śikṣā-guru or dīkṣā-guru. That is the matter of personal conviction.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:14:32]

Giriraj Swami: Okay, we will be having devotees here who will also be speaking about Krishna in their own way, according to their own realization as Prabhupada’s representatives in obedience to Prabhupada’s order to preach, just like Narayana Maharaja is acting in obedience to Prabhupada’s order to preach. And I don’t think that it is in any way a sign of disrespect for devotees to choose to hear the kṛṣṇa-kathā here and not go to hear the kṛṣṇa-kathā there. I don’t think it is a sign of disrespect or should be construed as an offense, because it is not. 

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:15:24]

Giriraj Swami: In all honesty, there is a history. I am not talking about politics; I am talking about history That there was a time when Sripada Narayana Maharaja was invited to ISKCON temples, and there is a reason why he is not invited now. And I think, in all honesty, instead of just attributing the change in policy to the offensiveness of ISKCON devotees, it would be worthwhile examining the history and see what led to the change in policy. Because it may not be that suddenly we all became great offenders. There could be other factors.

Thank you very much.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Gaura-bhakta-vṛnda ki jaya!