Everything Is in the Holy Name

Giriraj Swami: Reading from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Canto Three Chapter One, “Questions by Vidura.”

TEXT 17

sa nirgataḥ kaurava-puṇya-labdho
gajāhvayāt tīrtha-padaḥ padāni
anvākramat puṇya-cikīrṣayorvyām
adhiṣṭhito yāni sahasra-mūrtiḥ

TRANSLATION

By his piety, Vidura achieved the advantages of the pious Kauravas. After leaving Hastināpura, he took shelter of many places of pilgrimages, which are the Lord’s lotus feet. With a desire to gain a high order of pious life, he traveled to holy places where thousands of transcendental forms of the Lord are situated.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

Vidura was undoubtedly a highly elevated and pious soul; otherwise he would not have taken his birth in the Kaurava family. To have high parentage, to possess wealth, to be highly learned and to have great personal beauty are all due to past pious acts. But such pious possessions are not sufficient for obtaining the grace of the Lord and being engaged in His transcendental loving service. Vidura considered himself less pious, and therefore he decided to travel to all the great places of pilgrimage in the world in order to achieve greater piety and advance nearer to the Lord. At that time, Lord Kṛṣṇa was personally present in the world, and Vidura could have at once approached Him directly, but he did not do so because he was not sufficiently freed from sin. One cannot be one-hundred-percent devoted to the Lord unless and until he is completely free from all effects of sin. Vidura was conscious that by the association of the diplomatic Dhṛtarāṣṭra and Duryodhana he had lost his piety and was therefore not fit to associate at once with the Lord. In Bhagavad-gītā (7.28) this is confirmed in the following verse:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

Persons who are sinful asuras like Kaṁsa and Jarāsandha cannot think of Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth. Only those who are pure devotees, those who follow the regulative principles of religious life as prescribed in the scriptures, are able to engage themselves in karma-yoga and then jñāna-yoga and thereafter, by pure meditation, can understand pure consciousness. When God consciousness is developed, one can take advantage of the association of pure devotees. Syān mahat-sevayā viprāḥ puṇya-tīrtha-niṣevaṇāt: one is able to associate with the Lord even during the existence of this life.

Places of pilgrimages are meant for eradicating the sins of the pilgrims, and they are distributed all over the universe just to give facility to all concerned for attaining pure existence and God realization. One should not be satisfied, however, merely by visiting the places of pilgrimage and performing one’s prescribed duties; he should be eager to meet the great souls who are already there, engaged in the service of the Lord. In each and every place of pilgrimage, the Lord is present in His various transcendental forms.

These forms are called arcā-mūrtis, or forms of the Lord which can be easily appreciated by the common man. The Lord is transcendental to our mundane senses. He cannot be seen with our present eyes, nor can He be heard with our present ears. To the degree that we have entered into the service of the Lord or to the proportion that our lives are freed from sins, we can perceive the Lord. But even though we are not free from sins, the Lord is kind enough to allow us the facility of seeing Him in His arcā-mūrtis in the temple. The Lord is all-powerful, and therefore He is able to accept our service by presentation of His arcā form. No one, therefore, should foolishly think the arcā in the temple to be an idol. Such an arcā-mūrti is not an idol but the Lord Himself, and to the proportion that one is free from sins, he is able to know the significance of the arcā-mūrti. The guidance of a pure devotee is therefore always required.

In the land of Bhāratavarṣa there are many hundreds and thousands of places of pilgrimage distributed all over the country, and by traditional practice the common man visits such holy places during all seasons of the year. Some of the arcā representations of the Lord situated in different places of pilgrimage are mentioned herewith. The Lord is present at Mathurā (the birthplace of Lord Kṛṣṇa) as Ādi-keśava; the Lord is present at Purī (Orissa) as Lord Jagannātha (also known as Puruṣottama); He is present at Allahabad (Prayāga) as Bindu-mādhava; at Mandara Hill He is present as Madhusūdana. In the Ānandāraṇya, He is known as Vāsudeva, Padmanābha, and Janārdana; at Viṣṇukāñcī, He is known as Viṣṇu; and at Māyāpura, He is known as Hari. There are millions and billions of such arcā forms of the Lord distributed all over the universe. All these arcā-mūrtis are summarized in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta in the following words:

sarvatra prakāśa tāṅra — bhakte sukha dite
jagatera adharma nāśi’ dharma sthāpite

“The Lord has so distributed Himself all over the universe just to give pleasure to the devotees, to give the common man facility to eradicate his sins, and to establish religious principles in the world.”

COMMENT

To learn from the example of Vidura and from the examples of so many great devotees discussed in the pages of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, one point that we can learn from Vidura here is that one should progress in spiritual life, or Krishna consciousness, gradually, step by step. In the purport, Srila Prabhupada mentions that Lord Krishna was personally present on the Earth at the time, but Vidura was so humble that he felt that he was not pure enough to immediately associate with the Lord. And therefore, he decided that he should rather visit the holy places of pilgrimage where the Lord is present in the form of thousands of Deities, and thus purify himself by the association of the Deities in the holy places. Of course, the Deities, Themselves, make a place holy. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we read that by chanting the holy name of Krishna in a holy place, the effects of the chanting are multiplied ten thousand times. But Srila Prabhupada explains further in the purport, with reference to other authorities, that if one chants the holy name in front of the Deity of the Lord, or in a place where the Deity has been duly installed, then the effects of one’s chanting are similarly multiplied by ten thousand times. So, the place where the Deity of the Lord is installed is also considered dhāma, or a manifestation of dhāma, where the Lord is present with all of His paraphernalia and associates. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada’s terms like New Dvaraka or New Vrindavan are quite appropriate, because wherever the Deity is installed is a holy place of pilgrimage. And therefore, devotees can get similar benefit from visiting a holy place anywhere in the universe, whether it be in Los Angeles, or New York, or London, or Tokyo, or Johannesburg – anywhere. And this is a great mercy of Srila Prabhupada, that he made Krishna consciousness available to people all over the world.

Of course, Srila Prabhupada emphasized his books. His personal service, or an important part of his personal service to his spiritual master, was to translate various Vedic literatures into English with elaborate purports. But Srila Prabhupada also worked tirelessly to establish holy places throughout the world where the Deities of Radha and Krishna, Jagannatha, Baladeva, and Subhadra, Gaura-Nitai, and others are installed. And he established an institution to give association to devotees and to innocent visitors, because one should not just visit a holy place to see the Deity or to take bath, but one should associate with the devotees who reside in the holy place. And therefore, Srila Prabhupada established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, so that people all over the world could get the association of devotees when they come to the temples to be purified. So, we also have a sacred duty to give the type of association that will help people when they come to the temple to become elevated in Krishna consciousness. But Srila Prabhupada also was concerned that devotees in ISKCON have the chance to come to India and spend time in the holy dhāmas there, especially Vrindavan and Mayapur. And from the very beginning, he wanted to establish centers there where his devotees could come. And of course, we do have, by Srila Prabhupada’s grace, the Krishna-Balarama temple in Vrindavan and the Mayapur Chandrodaya Mandir in Mayapur. And now, there are so many other temples of ISKCON in India. And then, of course, there are the Deities installed by our previous acharyas, and they all welcome devotees and bless them with spiritual knowledge and purity. But still, of all the processes, the most important is the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. We find throughout the Vedic literatures that the most importance is given to the chanting of the holy names of the Lord.

Once, I happened to be in Srila Prabhupada’s room in Mayapur when one of his disciples, who was compiling the Arcana-paddati to give the rules and regulations for Deity worship for the devotees, happened ask Srila Prabhupada about the book he was compiling under Srila Prabhupada’s direction. And Srila Prabhupada instructed him, “Don’t make it too complicated.” In Kali-yuga, the main process is hari-nāma, and we should always remember that. So, Srila Prabhupada gave us the essential processes of Krishna consciousness, and the process is deceptively easy. Some people cannot believe that just by chanting Hare Krishna, following the regulative principles, taking kṛṣṇa-prasāda and serving Srila Prabhupada’s mission, which is the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, that one can achieve the highest perfection of life. I served in India, more or less, for thirty years, and I saw that there is a mentality of some people in India to think that the process has to be very complicated. If we tell them, “Just chant Hare Krishna and lead a pure life and serve Gaura-Nitai and you will achieve the highest perfection,” they think it is too simple; it can’t be that easy. And therefore, they go to yogis who teach them so many postures and difficult techniques. But part of Srila Prabhupada’s genius is that he presented a very intricate philosophy in very simple terms, and he presented what could be made into a complicated process into a very simple one. But of course, as Srila Prabhupada also advised us, chanting is very simple, but maintaining the determination to chant is not so simple. But the process itself is very simple.

And Srila Prabhupada and our acharyas have explained that everything is included in the holy name. Radha-Kṛishna, Their pastimes, the entire spiritual world are all included in the holy name. And therefore, if one wants simply to chant the holy name, and if one is able to chant purely, then the entire spiritual world and all of the conclusions of the Vedas can be revealed to him just by the simple process of chanting the holy name. But then again, Srila Prabhupada said, if one is inquisitive intellectually, there are so many books. There is a whole library of books on the science of Krishna consciousness. So, one is welcome to come and read the books and study and inquire and practice. So that, again, was Srila Prabhupada’s genius: That he presented Krishna consciousness in such a way that a simple person could just do some humble service and chant the holy names and attain the highest perfection. Yet, if someone wanted to go deeply into the philosophy; deeply into other practices of Krishna consciousness, he provided the facility. He provided books, and he encouraged them. But he always came back to the holy name, following Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and our predecessor acharyas. And that from pure chanting of the holy name of Krishna, the form of Krishna is revealed; the qualities of Krishna are revealed; the pastimes of Krishna are revealed; everything is revealed. And I think many devotees who have been serving in the movement for many years have come to the same conclusion that whatever we want spiritually can be achieved simply by chanting the holy names of Krishna and serving the pure devotee. As it is mentioned here, syān mahat-sevayā viprāḥ puṇya-tīrtha-niṣevaṇāt, by serving the pure devotee who is freed from vice, a great service is done, and one develops an affinity for hearing the message of Vāsudeva.

So, Srila Prabhupada was very intelligent. He understood that people were coming to him at different levels of advancement, from past births, from past pious activities, or past sinful activities. And therefore, he created a mission that would embrace everyone and help elevate everyone step by step. So, we find, in the Second Chapter of the First Canto, step-by-step, verse by verse, how one can advance. And therefore, even if one doesn’t have so much taste for the message of Vāsudeva, at first, but if he just serves the pure devotees, if he works to serve the mission of the pure devotee or serve the mission of spreading Krishna consciousness under the direction of the pure devotee, under the direction of Srila Prabhupada, in our case, one will develop the taste for hearing and chanting about Krishna more. And here, we should follow the example of Vidura, and just progress step-by-step in a way that is natural; not artificially, “Oh, Krishna is here. Let us just run to Krishna.” But no, Vidura was very humble. He was humble. He thought, Let me become qualified first. Let me visit the holy places. Let me become free from sins. And he had faith that by following the process, step-by-step, he would get the result. So, Srila Prabhupada was concerned also that we proceed step-by-step. We don’t try to jump over any of the steps or imagine that we are more than we are, but to proceed slowly but surely. But there is another mystery to Srila Prabhupada’s presentation of Krishna consciousness, or Srila Prabhupada’s mission. And that is that by serving the mission, even if what might appear to be the expense of one’s personal advancement, one can actually make more advancement.

Recently, I gave the example to one devotee that, in previous times, a spiritual master would have an ashrama and a few disciples, and he would personally guide each disciple step-by-step according to the need of the disciple; according to the capacity of the disciple. But Srila Prabhupada opened a huge institution where he had thousands and thousands of disciples to be guided. And it is sort of like, in education, the difference between the tutorial system and the lecture system. In the tutorial system, which Srila Prabhupada actually recommended for the gurukula in certain cases, the students sit in the classroom, and each one does his own work at his own pace. And there is no lecture, because there are so many students of different levels in the one classroom. And there is just one teacher in one classroom. And as each student masters a lesson, he or she goes to the teacher, and then the teacher will give the next lesson. But, if the student is stuck on a particular lesson, the teacher will give further instruction to help the student with the present lesson so he can go on to the next lesson. And therefore, each student progresses at his own rate under the personal guidance of the teacher. The other system is the lecture system, where there may be different students of different levels in the classroom. And of course, ideally, the students should be of similar levels, but there is always different levels even in first year; second year; third year. And the teacher will give one lecture for all the students, and all the students have to get something from the lecture. The teacher will give something for everyone from the lecture, but there are certain basic principles that the teacher wants everyone to get from the lecture.

So, in a general sense, ISKCON is like a huge university with the lecture system. But the university is so important to Krishna, to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, to Srila Prabhupada that even though one may think that, Well, I already know what the lecture is teaching, and I think I should go out for more advanced instruction, but still, if the more advanced students leave the university, how will the university continue? And therefore, my own conviction is that if someone stays in the university and assists the professor, assists Srila Prabhupada, with the presentation of Krishna consciousness in the general way he gave for the students in the university, he will be blessed by Srila Prabhupada’s mercy and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s mercy to make all the advancement he could possibly make if he left the university to pursue an independent course of advanced study, or so-called advanced study. And therefore, it is my personal conviction that if one does remain faithful to Srila Prabhupada and his mission, which is meant to be executed by his institution, by ISKCON, one will not be the loser in any way. One will get all the benefit one could get, if not more, and probably more than one could get if he pursued an independent course of more advanced study or so-called more advanced study. So, therefore, the process actually is very simple. When Lord Chaitanya was asked on numerous occasions what is the duty of the Vaishnava, Lord Chaitanya gave the answer: to chant the holy name and to serve the Vaishnava. And we certainly have ample opportunity to chant the holy names and serve the Vaishnavas here in ISKCON. With faith in simple instructions that we’ve received through disciplic succession, we can be assured of complete success, provided we follow the process without offenses.

Srila Rupa Gosvami, after listing sixty-four items of devotional service in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, he had listed five that are so powerful that even a slight association with any one of them can awaken ecstatic love of Godhead. But we may be in association with many of the five processes, or all of the five processes, but not awaken ecstatic love of Godhead so quickly, because we don’t fulfill the condition of being offenseless. And, of course, being offenseless is also not such an easy thing. But if we try to avoid offenses and engage in the simple process of chanting the holy names and serving the devotees, then gradually, even if we are subject to some remaining effects of sin or offense, all those will also be purified and washed away, and we will achieve the supreme perfection and goal. Hare Krishna.

Are there any questions or comments? Sarvesh Prabhu?

Sarvesh dasa: Giriraj, you said in this lecture on several occasions that Srila Prabhupada gave us everything. And there are devotees, even some of Srila Prabhupada’s own disciples, that don’t necessarily agree with you. I have heard from different disciples of Srila Prabhupada that they felt that Prabhupada didn’t give them everything. My question is that you have served with Srila Prabhupada for many years, especially, of course, the Juhu Beach, Bombay Temple, and you have had association in intimate situations. And I have also had one encounter with Srila Prabhupada, like that; that personal time. I was just wondering, what is it that Srila Prabhupada didn’t give us, if that is the case? Of course, you mentioned some things, but still we can go out and speak to some of our own godbrothers and godsisters who think that Srila Prabhupada didn’t give us everything. So, I would like to know, is it something that Prabhupada held back from us?

Giriraj Swami: Well, everything has different degrees of elaboration. In other words, just in the one word, Krishna, Prabhupada gave us everything, because everything is included in Krishna. But still, he gave us the whole mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna, and he gave us the Deities, he gave us the temples, he gave us the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he gave us the purports, and he gave us the association of devotees. So, he did give us everything. But everything can also be elaborated more. He gave us everything, but still, for example, Satsvarupa Maharaja asked Srila Prabhupada’s permission to write his biography, and he wrote his biography, Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta. And I know many devotees who get more inspiration from Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta perhaps than from any other book. So, Prabhupada gave us everything, even without Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta. But there is more of everything with Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta.

I have heard, in several lectures, that Srila Prabhupada has spoken about reading books. And of course, he wanted us to read his books. He wrote the books so we would read them. But in the lectures, in some of them, in the discussions, Srila Prabhupada had said that, actually, whatever we need for our own advancement we can get just by chanting the holy names and serving the spiritual master. But for preaching and convincing others, we need to read the books. And then, again, on occasions, and even within his books, he had said that, “What I have given is within my books,” Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, The Nectar of Devotion, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, is sufficient for preaching, and in other contexts, that is sufficient. But again, he has given us the Bhāgavatam, he is given us the purport in the Bhāgavatam, and he has asked us to speak according to our realization. And that means that he has given us everything. But also, part of the everything is the class and the association of devotees and the discussion among devotees. It maybe inconceivable, but I believe that although Prabhupada gave us everything, we can always get more of everything out of everything he gave us. But to say that he didn’t give us everything, I believe, is not accurate, because he did give us everything. He gave us everything that is sufficient to preach Krishna consciousness and to go back home, back to Godhead.

And I am personally very inspired by examples of devotees within the movement who I am very confident have gone back home, back to Godhead. And they did so on the basis of chanting Hare Krishna and following the regulative principles, and serving Prabhupada’s movement. I would not say that they never read any book other than Prabhupada’s books, and I don’t think that Prabhupada intended us not to read the books except the ones he translated. And I would not say that they never heard from devotees who had never read other books or associated with even devotees outside ISKCON who read other books. But basically, they were ISKCON devotees. They spent their whole spiritual lives in ISKCON, following the basic principles Srila Prabhupada gave us, chanting and working to spread Krishna consciousness. And I think of one example, there are so many examples, actually here now, naturally, I think of Gaura dasi because from what I have understood, she achieved a very exalted state of Krishna consciousness just by chanting and distributing books and serving. But one which I have heard described to me vividly concerns the wife of a temple president in Scotland. She got cancer, and in her last weeks or last days, she was excited because details of her eternal form and service to Krishna in the spiritual world were being revealed to her. And I believe, with complete simplicity, she was just explaining what she was experiencing; every day, more was being revealed to her. I never met her personally but, from what I have heard, she would have been considered just a regular devotee in ISKCON. She worked hard, she helped her husband who was temple president, she used to type and just do regular services in the temple. And in the end, she really realized everything. And I believe there are many, many – well, I can’t say how many – but many, many devotees who just spent their spiritual lives serving in ISKCON, who have gone back to Godhead. And I take inspiration from their examples. In a way, I take shelter of their examples, and even of them, in their exalted positions, where they are now.

So, if we are talking about the basic ingredients, both for becoming Krishna conscious and going back to Godhead and preaching Krishna consciousness, I think that we can get everything within the basic framework Srila Prabhupada gave us. And even if we can get more knowledge, in a way, from someone outside ISKCON, other things may come with it. We may want only the pure knowledge, but other things may come with it that we may not want. And a few years ago, when I was in India for Kartik at Radha-kuṇḍa, actually, I wasn’t staying at Radha-kuṇḍa, but the discussion took place at Radha-kuṇḍa. And I was speaking with some of the senior sannyasi godbrothers in ISKCON, and they all more or less came to the same conclusion that even though it might be harder to get some of the knowledge just within the association of devotees within ISKCON, they would rather do it that way and get it from people whose faith in Prabhupada they know is very congenial for their faith in Prabhupada, than to go outside to get the knowledge, which might, in a sense, be more easily accessible, but which might come with other things that they might consider not so conducive to their faith in Srila Prabhupada and their relationship with Srila Prabhupada.

Devotee: Having said that, what should want in attitude towards our relations with devotees?

Giriraj Swami: Well, his question is, what should be our attitude towards other Vaishnava devotees?

Our attitude should be to respect them as Vaishnavas and to encourage them. But it doesn’t mean, also, that if they attack that we just lay down and play dead. That is a very special circumstance. But in general, we should respect them and encourage them and respect their choice and the path they have chosen. Yes, Arcita Prabhu?

Arcita dasa: All right. The other side of this discussion, I think, was probably [Unintelligible 00:39:14] we are asking, what is Srila Prabhupada giving us, but we should ask, what are we bringing to Srila Prabhupada?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is true.

Arcita dasa: [Unintelligible 00:39:21]

Giriraj Swami: I agree with you, and I think what you said about the service attitude is very important. Srila Prabhupada said he only asked his guru Maharaja one question: “How can I serve you?” And, when we were serving Srila Prabhupada in India, yes, we might have time to chant our sixteen rounds, but we didn’t have much time to do anything else. And Srila Prabhupada encouraged us. Yes?

Devotee: Maharaja, what Arcita was saying, we don’t all agree with that. Srila Prabhupada gave us everything; there is no question about that. He wants us to enter very deeply into The Teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Bhāgavatam, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, like that. And you quoted a verse, you could say it in Bengali, but sādhu-saṅga nāma-kīrtana bhāgavata-śravaṇa. the five great potent factors. And Srila Prabhupada gave us everything. How much within us – how much qualification do we have to take everything that he is given us? Sri-Sri- Rukmini-Dwarkadhish is there. Prabhupada is there. The holy name, like you said. So, what is our qualification to actually taste those things? So that is why it is stated that those five factors—very potent factors—that the sādhu-saṅga, nāma-kīrtana, they should all be preceded with sādhu-saṅga. If we can get good association from the Vaishnavas, like you said; like you were reading earlier: When we go to the holy places, not only going to take the dust from the holy places, but we should hear about the līlās that took place from the Vaishnavas, high-class Vaishnavas – not just ordinary that we associate with ourselves, like us, but those who are tasting that. Because Srila Prabhupada gave us that. Srila Prabhupada made everything alive. As soon as he walked into the room, the holy name is—we were tasting the name, but he was seeing Radha-Govinda.

So, the sadhu is the catalyst that makes everything that he wants to give us come alive. So sādhu-saṅga is so important to all of us. Otherwise, we see so many have chanted for years, so many have worshiped the Deities, so many have distributed so many books, so many have even accepted disciples and then something has happened. So, with good association, we can remain strong and grow. And that point you said about the university: If the professor can become more and more expert by maybe occasionally coming in contact with someone who is been giving lectures for so many years, who is so experienced in that science, then when he gives a lecture in whatever particular mission – in Srila Prabhupada’s mission – and so many will want to hear more and more, and they will also become more and more inspired—-the professor will become more expert himself. But everyone should be—everyone has to have an obligation to Prabhupada for what he gave us. Without Prabhupada, there would be no nāma-kīrtana; there would be nothing. There would be no Bhāgavatam; there is be no Caitanya-caritāmṛta; nothing. And because he gave his life for that, our obligation to him is to really learn what he is trying to give us. And from that, everyone will be inspired by each other’s association.

Giriraj Swami: Again, I agree with what you say. I think that implicit in what you said, there is a consideration that you didn’t make explicit, which is association by vāṇī and association by vapuḥ. I think we all agree that association with an advanced devotee or pure devotee is essential. And in fact, in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, as you know well, Rupa Gosvami’s definition of sadhu-sangha is sajātīya svato vare, one more advanced than oneself. But, I think that implicit in the discussion of association is the two types of association — vāṇī and vapuḥ. And Srila Prabhupada really emphasized for us, for other reasons, but he really emphasized for us vāṇī. [Break in audio 00:46:52 – 00:46:53] godbrothers, very nice devotee, Sacinandana Swami, analyzing the verse by Rupa Gosvami about sadhu-sangha, said that a devotee, by nature, will feel that other devotees are more advanced than him. And unless we feel that the other devotee is more advanced than us, we won’t really be able to benefit from the other devotee’s association. I don’t want to use myself as an example, but it is just clarity began with me and Sacinandana Swami. But, I could think and be convinced that he is more advanced than I am, and that I can gain so much from his association. He could think that I am more advanced than he is, and that he can gain from my association. And I think that, at least I haven’t come to the stage where I think that there is no one in ISKCON who is more advanced than I am. And therefore, even in a personal sense, if I want to associate with someone more advanced, I have to go outside of ISKCON. But even otherwise, there is also the issue of associating with Srila Prabhupada. At the same time, I don’t deny the experience of someone who is enlivened by the association of an advanced devotee, even if he is not in ISKCON. I don’t deny the validity of the experience, but I don’t consider such association to be the only way that one can associate with an advanced devotee or a devotee more advanced than themselves.

Devotee: One small point is that Srila Prabhupada stressed vāṇī. And he did. He wanted us to. If one is very sober and sincere, you can experience by reading Rupa Gosvami’s Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu; you can experience many little [Unintelligible 00:48:58] speaking; writing. Srila Prabhupada, reading his books, we will experience Srila Prabhupada. But if we had an opportunity—if Srila Prabhupada’s getting ready to give class, or to stay in our apartment and read his book—we would all want to run here and hear directly from the lotus lips of our Srila Prabhupada. There is so much potency coming from his glance, from the words emitting from his lotus mouth; so many things. And both are there.

Giriraj Swami: That is true. And I think that if we were convinced that Srila Prabhupada was around the corner giving a lecture, we would run there.

Devotee: Yes, I am just saying there is a difference between vāṇī and vapuḥ. There is more potency if vāṇī is coming directly from the personality, which is Srila Prabhupada.

Giriraj Swami: Sarvesh Prabhu.

Sarvesh dasa: Just want to say that, it appears to me that, also as a disciple, one should be concerned, or at least become expert in understanding the mission of the spiritual master. Now, I would say that if the disciple served properly, then the disciple would give his life and soul to the mission of the spiritual master. And I know that, one time I was on a morning walk with Srila Prabhupada, and in that morning walk, I specifically remember, that there was one devotee asking Prabhupada about the intimate pastimes of Radha-Krishna. And it happened on three occasions that this devotee was insisting that Srila Prabhupada explain to him about the interaction and the feelings of Krishna with the gopīs. And each time, Srila Prabhupada asked him, “Why are you asking me this?” And he would not answer. Yet, still the devotee persisted. And Srila Prabhupada would not answer him. And finally, the third time he told him, “Stop. I don’t want to hear this.” And the morning walk was more or less became [Unintelligible 00:50:45]. Prabhupada would say he is chanting. So finally, just before getting into the vehicle with Srila Prabhupada, one devotee asked Srila Prabhupada, he said, “Prabhupada, we are doing this and this for you. We are distributing this many books in the airport. We are trying to satisfy you this way, that way.” And Prabhupada stopped and listened to the whole spiel of the devotee, although it is very erratic. And Prabhupada just stopped, and he looked at everybody and he said, “Just see; this is my real devotee.” So, it meant that Prabhupada was very concerned about the mission. That there was a devotee who was going to give his life and soul for the mission, then probably that devotee understood.

And I recall, from many years ago, Rāmeśvara wrote a newsletter where Prabhupada was saying that the activities of book distribution are nondifferent than the pastimes of Radha and Krishna. He went so far as to say that, and it caused a great uproar within our society. And people were actually writing to Srila Prabhupada, “This is not proper.” And Prabhupada’s answer was, “No, he is right. It is nondifferent.” So it seems to me, as Prabhupada’s disciples, we should be very concerned with the mission. Now, that is one part of Srila Prabhupada’s mission. I feel that was the most important part of his mission. Of course, he did other things, also. So, it almost behooves us, as his disciples, in that if we all want to get the mercy from the spiritual master, if we actually want to get involved in the pastimes of Radha and Krishna, if we get involved in the mission of the spiritual master, that will actually happen without having to go anywhere, do anything. Just become absorbed in the instruction and mission of a spiritual master.

Giriraj Swami: Very well said. I have had, obviously, discussions on the subject with other devotees, and one is His Holiness Radhanath Swami. And His Holiness Radhanath Swami is convinced, as I believe Srila Prabhupada was, and as I, in my own way, am, Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. That by serving Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who is the combined form of Radha and Krishna, one can achieve the service of Radha and Krishna. And, with His devotees, He emphasizes caitanya-līlā, because caitanya-līlā are much easier for us to approach and appreciate. Our activities, themselves, are the same as caitanya-līlā, the saṅkīrtana movement, and our dress is the same, more or less. So, he believes that hearing and chanting about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is safer and easier, but at the same time, it will lead us to the same goal of Radha and Krishna, because, Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. And here, I just think of one quotation that has actually been an inspiration to me, that Srila Prabhupada said that, that in order to approach Radha and Krishna, we need the mercy of Lord Chaitanya. In order to get the mercy of Lord Chaitanya, we need the mercy of Lord Nityananda. And in order to get the mercy of Lord Nityananda, we have to approach people who are like Jagai and Madhai. So, I agree exactly with what you said, that Prabhupada wanted us to go deeper. But again, there is different ways of going deeper. One is by going to Vrindavan; studying the scriptures; hearing from more advanced devotees; more knowledgeable devotees. And another is by realization or revelation.

And again, it is just my own experience, and I don’t recommend my experience as the standard for others, but my own experience is that, although when I was in India, I did spend time in Vrindavan, and I did study scripture, and I did associate with advanced devotees – I feel that my actual realization has not suffered by staying in the West and doing things that are not like sādhu-saṅga, nāma-kīrtana, and bhāgavata-śravaṇa, and so on. And again, I quote an instruction Prabhupada gave to me, but again, it is from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā [SB 1.2.18]. He quoted the verse to me, in India, at a time when none of us, practically, had time to read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And he emphasized that by serving the person bhāgavata, or by reading the book Bhāgavata, one gets the same result. And he directly said that if you go on serving the person bhāgavata, all the truths of the book Bhāgavata will be revealed to you, even if you never read the book. And that is a conviction that is based on shastra, and it is also an experience that I have had. And I think it is such convictions that compel me to continue the way I am. And like I said, I don’t say that the way I am perceiving should be the way everyone perceives, but it is based on scripture, it is working for me at my level, and therefore, I can’t also accept a point of view that says that this will not work; but it has to be something else. In other words, that just serving the mission—and it is not just serving the mission. How can you serve the mission properly if you don’t chant sixteen rounds and follow the regulated principles? You can’t, and it is sort of like a show.

But, if one follows the basic principles and serves the mission, he can get very deep realizations. And to say that one can only get such realizations by associating with a more advanced devotee of a type that is not available in ISKCON, I think it is not doing justice to the potency of the process that Prabhupada has given us. But at the same time, I would not say that the other is wrong either. But what I feel can cause a disturbance, is if someone says that, “You can’t do this. If you do this, that is like, you might think it is Krishna consciousness, but it is actually maya,” or something. Either way. Yes. . .?

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:57:32] devotees the opportunity that they can still go to the holy land and associate with other devotees. I am speaking from my own example because I grew up in [Unintelligible 00:57:44] and when I lived there, there was no temple, and I was always [Unintelligible 00:57:48]

Giriraj Swami: Jaya. Yes.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: I didn’t hear that.

Puṣpadanta: She is saying that [Unintelligible 00:58:20] Prabhu was saying that one should hear from a high class Vaishnava. He said she doesn’t know the difference between a low class Vaishnava and a high class Vaishnava. She wants to know if you could explain that. That is why we don’t have Bhakta Robert sitting on the vyāsāsana already. We have you, guru Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: Okay, well, Puruṣottama?

Puṣpadanta dasa: Puṣpadanta.

Giriraj Swami: Puṣpadanta. Oh! I know you. We did college preaching in Orange County once, together.

Puṣpadanta dasa: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. I remember. I knew you, but I had forgotten your name.

Okay. Well, she is saying, how can we recognize who is a higher devotee, and who is a lower devotee? And Puṣpadanta Prabhu gave the answer, indirectly, that they are not all the same, otherwise, why am I giving the class and not Bhakta Robert, with all due respect to Bhakta Robert. I know him personally. But, what Puṣpadanta Prabhu said actually contains a hidden truth to it. And that is that a very new devotee may not actually be able to distinguish very clearly. To the very new devotee, at least I know when we joined, in the atmosphere in which we joined, we saw all the older devotees as advanced devotees; as pure devotees. At least some of us did. But when you actually become more mature, it is like a child. For a child, everyone is bigger than him. But when the child begins to mature, he can see gradations of maturity or seniority. And therefore, the mature devotees, like the temple president or other mature devotees, choose the person to give the class, because they may have a sense of who is more qualified to give the class than someone else, even though a new person might not. But again, we come back to the point that the safest position is to be respectful of all devotees. And although, at a certain stage, as Rupa Gosvami advises, one should distinguish between different categories of devotees and deal with them differently, he doesn’t give any permission to disrespect any devotee. It is just degrees of respect or degrees of surrender. And if one is in a position where he or she can’t really distinguish, if it is not a problem, then, the safest thing is just to offer respects to everyone, which is the highest platform. That is the irony; when you first walk in the door, you see everyone as a pure devotee; you offer respects to everyone. And when you actually become a mahā-bhāgavata you see everyone as a pure devotee and offer respects to everyone. And, I guess, let the authorities decide who is appropriate to give the class, because that is an answer also for someone at a certain level.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:01:56]

Giriraj Swami: To who?

Devotee: Bhakta Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: Oh yes.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:02:34]

Giriraj Swami: Well, I don’t want to go too long, but I would say that Srila Prabhupada emphasized, in relation to himself, that he was the founder-acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and founder-acharya means he is the supreme authority. It may sound sacrilegious to say, but within ISKCON, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is not the supreme authority. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura is not the supreme authority. Srila Rupa Gosvami is not the supreme authority. He is, in the sense that he is the supreme authority for rūpānuga Vaishnavas, but it is not for us who accept Srila Prabhupada as the founder-acharya to make a decision for ISKCON based on our independent conclusion about what Rupa Gosvami would want. I don’t know if you understand what I mean.

Devotee: Oh, I understand a little bit, but [Unintelligible at 01:04:45]

Giriraj Swami: Okay, let us take a simple example. As I understand, and I have heard from devotees associated with Srila Śrīdhara Maharaja, who heard it from him, that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had three standards for how many rounds a disciple should chant every day. If one had time, sixty-four rounds. If one didn’t have so much time, sixteen rounds. And if one was really busy in service, four rounds. But at least four rounds. Now, that is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. For us, Srila Prabhupada has said, minimum sixteen for everyone. And maybe this is what I was talking about, the difference between the lecture hall and the tutorial system. So, it is not that Srila Prabhupada is superior to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Obviously, he would be the first one to say he is not. But within ISKCON, by this definition of ISKCON, he is the founder-acharya and he is the supreme authority. So, if he says sixteen rounds minimum for us, we don’t say, “Well, for some it is sixteen, but for some it can be four if they are really busy. And if they are not really busy, then for some it should be sixty-four.” That is the type of application I mean.

Devotee: [Unintelligible01:06:28]

Giriraj Swami: I know, but to my knowledge, Srila Prabhupada never said that if you are very busy, four rounds is enough.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: But, I am not discussing Srila Śrīdhara Maharaja. I am discussing the principle that Srila Prabhupada, as the founder-acharya of ISKCON, is the supreme authority for devotees of ISKCON, by that definition of ISKCON.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: We are not talking about family. I accept them as — I hope I am part of the same family as them. We are not talking about family; we are talking about the ISKCON institution.

Devotee: But isn’t that family that [Unintelligible 01:07:32] relationships between pure devotees?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but there are branches of the Lord Chaitanya tree. So, Srila Prabhupada said ISKCON is one of the branches. It doesn’t mean that there is no beauty in the other branches, or there is no harmony among the branches. But ISKCON is a distinct branch of the Chaitanya tree.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:07:53]

Giriraj Swami: But the ISKCON branch is the branch that is personally and specifically guided by Srila Prabhupada as the supreme authority of the ISKCON branch.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Dīkṣā? What does dīkṣā have to do with it? 

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: I have been with Sripada Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja and his list of śikṣā-gurus, and he has included Bhaktivedanta Swami. He has included Śrīdhara Swami. He has included Bon Maharaja. He has included people who, in different ways, were not in agreement with Srila Prabhupada, or Srila Prabhupada was not in complete agreement with them. So, that means that he has accepted śikṣā-gurus who are not in agreement with Bhaktivedanta Swami. Prabhupada. But we, if we are in ISKCON, are not at liberty to accept śikṣā that would be contrary or disagreeable to Srila Prabhupada.

Now, you might have your own interpretation as to what would be agreeable to Srila Prabhupada, and I may have my interpretation. You may consider someone to be in harmony with Srila Prabhupada, and I might not consider the same person to be in complete harmony with Srila Prabhupada. But ISKCON is the place where everything that goes on in it has to be in complete harmony with Srila Prabhupada in principle. It doesn’t mean that we don’t fail. We do fail. We fail hundreds and thousands and millions of times. But our goal is to make our thinking, feeling, willing, and acting in harmony with Srila Prabhupada’s desires. ISKCON—Prabhupada says, “Follow the GBC.” I may agree or disagree with the GBC, personally. Prabhupada says follow the temple president. I may agree or disagree with the temple president, personally, but because Prabhupada said it, out of obedience, I follow Prabhupada’s order. And I think that Prabhupada will be pleased by my effort to follow his order. And in the matter of following his appointed officers, Srila Prabhupada has said, on many occasions when asked, that you should follow my representative. Then, the devotee—you could ask, “Well, what if your representative is not representing you properly?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Still, you have to follow.”

And then, the devotee would ask, “Well, what if he consistently misrepresents you?” And then, Prabhupada said, “Well, I will correct him, or I will replace him. But your advancement will be the same, because you are following my order to follow him.” So, I think that is also a very important part of Srila Prabhupada’s instruction—that we cooperate for the sake of the mission, for the sake of ISKCON. And that is, that we accept a certain discipline whether we personally agree with the person or not; whether we personally think the person is advanced or not. And that is one of the defining features of ISKCON. That is one of the defining features of accepting Srila Prabhupada as the founder-acharya and as the supreme authority.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:12:07]

Giriraj Swami: I am all for honoring Vaishnavas. There is no question. I am all for honoring Vaishnavas. I honor his attempt. I honor his service. I honor the help that he has given to so many devotees who have taken the help. That is not the issue at all.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Well, it might be. For me, personally, it is not. But it might be. And I can say openly, again, that we should appreciate the service of all Vaishnavas and offer respects to all Vaishnavas, whether they are in ISKCON or not.

Devotee: Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: We are all here on behalf of. . .

Devotee: [Unintelligible]. . .And I think you should accept that.

Giriraj Swami: Well, I do. And I hope others do. But it wasn’t Srila Prabhupada’s instruction to any of us, to my knowledge, to accept Srila Narayana Maharaja as a śikṣā-guru or dīkṣā-guru. That may be a matter of personal conviction.

Devotee: That is true.

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:13:57]

Giriraj Swami: Okay, but we will be having devotees here who will also be speaking about Krishna in their own way, according to their own realization, as Prabhupada’s representatives in obedience to Prabhupada’s order to preach. Just like Narayana Maharaja was acting in obedience to Prabhupada’s order to preach. And I don’t think that it is in any way a sign of disrespect for devotees to choose to hear the kṛṣṇa-kathā here and not go to hear the kṛṣṇa-kathā there. I don’t think it is a sign of disrespect or should be construed as an offense, because it is not.

Devotee: [Unintelligible]

Giriraj Swami: Well, in all honesty, there is a history.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:15:06]

Giriraj Swami: I am not talking about politics. I am talking about history. But there was a time when Sripada Narayana Maharaja was invited to ISKCON temples. And there is a reason why he is not invited, now. And I think, in all honesty, instead of just attributing the change in policy to the offensiveness of ISKCON devotees, it would be worthwhile examining the history and see what led to the change in policy. Because it may not be that suddenly we all became great offenders. There could be other factors.

Thank you very much.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Gaura-bhakta-vṛnda, ki jaya!