Mother Kirtida—Part 01

Devotee:. . . under any kind of stress, I am really concerned about that.

Giriraj Swami: No, I am glad you let me rest as much as nature allowed, especially because I had a wonderful dream about Srila Prabhupada.

Devotee: When was that?

Giriraj Swami: Just now.

Devotee: Wow!

Giriraj Swami: Unfortunately, I only remember the last part, but it was a long one. And Srila Gurudeva was there as the secretary and Prabhupada was still in pretty good health, but we sensed that he would probably leave soon. And a lot of the dream took place on a walk with Srila Prabhupada, and that was the part I remember. Before that, he might have been in his room, but when I woke up, I just remembered the last part. And when I woke up, I thought back about the dream and I remembered different parts of the dream, reminding me of different parts of real life. And Tamal Krishna Goswami was sort of protecting Srila Prabhupada,  keeping control of the walk in a way. But in a way, he was sort of letting Prabhupada and Krishna arrange whatever would happen. And Prabhupada was in a preaching mood. And I remember within my mind thinking that well, that I think that came later at the end. But anyway, within my mind, I was thinking that I wanted some special time with Srila Prabhupada. And it was quite true to life, especially we considered Juhu and part of the walk. The walk ended up being down a lane to the beach. And that it did remind me of Gandhi Gram Road, which leads to Juhu Beach.

And so definitely Tamal Krishna Goswami was the most prominent and the most intimate with Srila Prabhupada. And then I was sort of the next, and then there were the others. But still, Prabhupada was giving attention according to his will. But within myself, I hoped I could get some time with him. And then as we were going down the lane to the beach, it happened; he let me walk next to him and we were talking. He was very affectionate and very congenial. And then Prabhupada asked if I knew the verse, bhaja Govinda bhaja Govinda. So I said yes. And then I quoted the verse. And then he said, “Have you ever spoken on the verse?” And I said yes. And then he smiled and chuckled and said, “Oh, you are very expert preacher now.” So then in the dream, I felt encouraged. But at the same time, I felt humbled, like, I should never think I am a great preacher. But at the same time, something was happening in a subtle way. I felt that actually I was being empowered by Srila Prabhupada to preach. And again, within my mind in the dream, I knew that Goswami Maharaja was already highly empowered. But I had a sense that Prabhupada was empowering me to preach, especially because he was going to be leaving. So then sort of my time was up. I was satisfied, he showed a lot of affection towards me. And I felt he had empowered me to preach.

And we were getting near the beach. And then a little behind me was a lady, actually Jadurani. And so because she was behind me and I sort of finished my time of being alone with Prabhupada on the walk. So I was drifting away and she was there and Prabhupada noticed her. And then turned to Goswami Maharaja, like that, and then, that is, who she is. Like, that is meaning,  it was like, Satsvarupa’s former wife. But I could see that Gosvami Maharaja wasn’t really very favorable to her, coming up and being with Prabhupada. But it was sort of happening and he let it happen. And then Prabhupada said something like, “Have I given her something?” And then Goswami Maharaja said, “Well, you did give her second initiation.” Now, I believe that refers indirectly to when Prabhupada first gave second initiations in ISKCON. I don’t know if you read it in the book. It might not be in the Līlāmṛta, but it might be in one of the small chapters. At first, he didn’t give second initiation to women. When he did the first ceremony, he didn’t give second initiation to any of the women. And Jadurani and Govinda dasi were concerned,  why the men got it and they didn’t get it. Then Prabhupada gave second initiation to them. So, when Prabhupada said, “Have I given her something?” Then Goswami Maharaja said, “Yes, you gave her second initiation.” But then I think Prabhupada was thinking if he should give her more. I think he was in the mood, maybe because he was leaving, to give her more. So in the dream, he was thinking of giving her some money. And again, when I woke up, I thought this may refer indirectly to when Prabhupada left, he gave ten thousand rupees to his personal servants. And I could see that Goswami Maharaja was not favorable to the idea. I got the sense that Prabhupada was so soft-hearted and kind-hearted, it is like, just because she was there, he wanted to give her something. Gosvami Maharaja was thinking, if he gave her something, it would create complications. Because she just happened to be there at the time. But what about all the other ladies? Either they will expect the same thing, which would be problematic, or they will wonder why did Prabhupada gave something to her and not to them?

So I could see, it was sort of hard to replicate, Srila Goswami Maharaja had a way of expressing his, you could say, mood, negative mood. Not through the words he used, but through his tone. So he did the same with Prabhupada, it was like, yes, but like, he didn’t approve, but he wasn’t interfering, but he was expressing his concern. But anyway, that never really developed more in the dream because by then we reached the beach. And when we reached the beach, I felt very elated, because we were with Prabhupada and he was so kind and affectionate. And I felt that he had empowered me to preach. And Goswami Maharaja, when we got to the beach, he  became very jubilant. And it was amazing because, up until then, he was very grave and serious because he was Prabhupada’s secretary. And there were so many devotees to sort of make sure everything was in order. But when he got to the beach, he also became very jubilant. And he ran down the last part of the lane onto the sand. And he was holding up his Danda.

Devotee: And Prabhupada was still there?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, he was there. And I think he was also jubilant just from being with Srila Prabhupada. And, within my mind, I was thinking that he has really been empowered by Prabhupada to preach. He had really taken up the mood. He has really got the mood from Prabhupada, which included both, being as hard as the thunderbolt, as soft as the rose. And I was also very enlivened just knowing that one person like Tamal Krishna Goswami was so empowered by Prabhupada in the exact same mood to preach. And then there is just  a little sadness amidst all the jubilation because there was a sense that we may never get to be with Srila Prabhupada again in such a healthy condition. Somehow, there was just a sense of that along with the jubilation.

And then I woke up, but I was still in a trance-like state. I didn’t know where I was. And eventually, I realized where I was and that I had just taken a nap; that had fallen deep asleep in my nap. Then I remembered that you were all here. And then probably because you all were here, that is why I had such a nice dream. And then I went over the dream in my mind because I thought I will share it with you. I felt that in Dallas, that Goswami Maharaja really taken up the mood of Srila Prabhupada. It was like the representative, at least in my mind, best representative of Srila Prabhupada. Well, I don’t know, but in my mind. And the paramparā, because around the same time was Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s appearance day. And there was, this ceremony in the temple with puṣpāñjali for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. And even then, I was thinking about how Goswami Maharaja really embodied the mission of Bhaktivinoda Thakura especially in Mayapur, embodying the mood of the previous acharyas. But I realize that there is a lot of jubilation. I think there is a lot of jubilation between Goswami Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada. But it was under the surface of the gravity, Srila Prabhupada is a acharya and he is the secretary. And even in the exchanges where there was some. . . it appeared that Srila Prabhupada was correcting Goswami Maharaja or something. But under the surface, it was a very jubilant exchange, like spiritual father and spiritual son. So much love.

Devotee: There are pictures of him in London. There was snow and ice with him and Prabhupada holding an umbrella. It was a kind of blissful camaraderie, it seems.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. So, I had one awkward moment about two weeks ago, with Yasoda Dulal of South Africa. He spent two weeks, was it in Dallas or here? Yes, he spent two weeks.

Devotee: He is the one who is studying to be a doctor.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. So, he wrote a letter saying that, according to him, I was very close to Srila Gurudeva and I could bring in Sri Gurudeva. And for some reason, I couldn’t relate to that role. I didn’t know how I could do that because even though we were close, he was an individual and I was an individual. I could never be the same as him. I don’t know, I somehow was just perturbed about how to respond. So, I went and sat in that chair with him, which is quite good for my back. I can chant for long periods there. And I was looking at the picture. And within two minutes, maybe not even two minutes, and oh yes, that was another thing. That was another thing because I was feeling a lot of separation from Gurudeva. And I was thinking,  they are sort of looking towards me and their separation, but I am also feeling separated. So yes, I remember I felt terrible separation. So then I came, I just started to chant. And within, one or two minutes or whatever, I felt that Goswami Maharaja was saying something like, “Don’t worry, just bring him to Srila Prabhupada. And when he gets to Srila Prabhupada, I will also be there.” He was  saying, , I don’t have to try to. . .,

Devotee: Make any extreme . . .

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I don’t have to try to learn something new or do something different. I mean, that was in his case. There are other cases where I actually do feel that I can encourage people directly in their relationship with Gurudeva. But with Yasoda Dulal , somehow, I couldn’t, maybe because I don’t know him really. I mean, he has heard me speak in South Africa, but I don’t really know him. And I never saw him with Srila Gurudeva. I don’t know much about their relationship. So I didn’t really know how to deal with his statement. And then, what Srila Gurudeva said, that sort of relieved the whole tension and gave the perfect solution. And with Radhika, I guess this is maybe, the essence of what happened on Mother Kirtida’s disappearance day when she came to your house and I was already there. So, I thought that we should sing in Mother Kirtida’s room at your house. And in the meantime, it was time for you and Mother Padadhuli to go to the temple because you were officiating over the ceremonies. And, so Kunjabihari was there, so he was going with Radhika to her car to bring her harmonium so he could sing a little for Mother Kirtida.

And when everyone was gone and I was alone in the room, it was like when Mother Kirtida wanted to, anyway, she wanted me to get a message from her. So she was very clear. Basically, she said, and I couldn’t even imagine what the context was, but basically, she said that I should bring Radhika to her, and she will take Radhika to Gurudeva and Gurudeva would bring Radhika to Prabhupada. So that was sort of a different approach. But the other point I mentioned in the talk was that Vaishnavas are individuals. Yes, they represent a tradition and they convey a message which is standard. But at the same time, they are individuals. And I said how Mother Kirtida was a very proper Vedic lady, but still she liked pizza and French fries. And if she wanted them, she would ask for them. She didn’t try to pretend to be someone else or something else. So that was the point I was making, is that Vaishnavas, they are individuals, that although they do represent the line and they teach us, standard philosophy and a standard process according to the line, but they are also individuals. And that, yes, they have individual likes and dislikes. And, as individuals, they can make arrangements for us and do things for us. So, because you didn’t want to hear the tape because you were shy to hear yourself mentioned so much. Yes, what I just said now is part of what I said at Vyasa-puja.

And I even said how Mother Kirtida said, “You should tear down your house and build a new one.” That was a very personal instruction. I mean, you can’t get that out of any book. That was a very personal instruction for you, because she didn’t want you to dwell in the past and memories of the past. But you wanted to have your own life, start to start a new chapter, which is what you told me; I am not speculating.

Devotee: She also said, “Remember from the day the child is born, I need to set aside money in a fund for the child for its college education.” And probably she knows how I am so frivolous with spending money. So she didn’t want to probably ruin the future of the child’s education. And she also said that we should have one child. One is enough.

Giriraj Swami: Even the story about her relationship with the pujari, and how she gave medicines for the villagers. That is, of course, it is just the whole thing, very compassionate. I mean, she would give for the deity service, which is very spiritual. In an ultimate sense, it is all spiritual. She would give for the deity service, which is very spiritual, but she also gave medicine for the villagers, which, in a superficial sense, one could say is mundane welfare work. But I think that is really good, and it is Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ, there is so many different scriptures and so many different instructions. And how do you know what to do? And then, Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ, that the true principles of religion are established in the heart of the devotee. And therefore, we should follow whatever path the devotees have traversed. Even the way she took care of Radha-Kalachandji, ready for their service, even after she left. I think she was a little in the mood of Lalita, not letting Krishna get away with any misbehavior.

Devotee: Yes, she had a certain mood like that. She used to talk about a couple of times, like when Radharani is in the mood of māna, that Krishna cannot do anything. See, Krishna is wrapped around Radharani’s finger. She was very fond of things like that, Krishna and Radharani are quarrelsome. That is the mood of Lalita devi.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, if Radharani’s mood of māna is slackening, sometimes, Lalita devi would say, “You can’t give in to Him. You have to be strong. You can’t let Him treat You like that. Hold Your position.”

Devotee: She had a very confidential part to her life, which I think she, as far as my knowledge, never discussed with anyone. And towards the end, things became manifested. She is not what we thought she was. There was some very extraordinary part about her. She was so like one of us. And that kind of made us very close to her. And then as the days got by close to her departure, it became very obvious that this person is definitely on a different dimension. And the devotees in Kalachandji dhāma took very lightly also began to see that. It was like a big lesson how good they foresaw that and he wanted to set an example when he requested her to leave her body in Dallas. That was a huge benefit to the community.

Giriraj Swami: So that was a very extraordinary insight, for him to have her leave.

Devotee: At the same time, she made everyone feel like she was their friend. That she wasn’t in an unreachable world. So to me, that gives hope because I feel like I have fallen very short of the mark. But I still felt like she extended friendship to me even though I wasn’t perfect or wasn’t in the mood that she was all the time or anything. So I feel closer to Krishna just because of what she is. And she was not an unreachable kind of person, and without Goswami Maharaja arranging for her to be in a position where her departure could be seen by other people, I think there is some benefit for that. That we value her more by that. She never would have put herself in that position. But she just accepted it because I think it was sevā. I would think that usually when somebody leaves their body, generally you just start thinking of your concerns like, I don’t want anyone to see me like this or I want this person, But when the guru says, I want you to leave here and all this, the whole thing of leaving the body becomes sevā.  And then because it seemed to me because it was sevā for her, when you are actually doing service and not fulfilling your own desires, there is a lightness to it, and there is a whole lightness in her life at that time, just like she was just at ease, even though it was a tremendously difficult situation to leave your body. We all felt that, she felt like Krishna was arranging everything for her and her guru was arranging everything for her. And she was very comfortable with it. And she was so peaceful in the face of death. It gave us a lot of hope also. It was like a celebration. There were kirtans just a few days before she left, where it was like laughing in the face of death almost. Just like, where she is like a Vaishnava and the mood was, we are Vaishnavas and, somehow Krishna is helping me and it just gave hope to everyone else.

Devotee 2: Definitely. She created so much hope in people’s hearts. And I felt this myself and Padadhuli also did. She kind of stopped interacting with us in the way she normally would in the midst of all this and I was trying to ponder over that. Maybe she did not want to make the separation very hard to bear. So she, at the same time, kind of acknowledge us and everything but her dealings with us became quite different. Probably she was kind of preparing us that you have to accept it. And I used to think that she stopped calling me “my dear son.” That bothered me so much. Every time she called me, she said, “my dear son, my dear son.” And then, three, four weeks before her departure, she stopped calling me that. I used to think, “Why did she? This is like a sense of rejection or something.” That she is no more son. I used to think about this a whole lot, even after she left. And then, the fact that she left the body with neither one of us being beside her was also confirmation that, it is a sense of rejection. So I used to think about it a whole lot. And then, she appeared in a dream, the same bed which she was in that room. And then, she was in perfect health. And she was lying down like this, very elegantly. She was looking at me and her sister, Katie, the sister, was sitting beside her, Mamita. And then, she looked at me and she said, “My dear son.” In that dream, I just grabbed a whole handful of her feet and just had it on my head, and I just woke up. I was ecstatic when I woke up. So there was just a reaffirmation that she still considers me her son. So that gave me great hope.

Devotee: Maybe she was trying to make you humble, too. Because there could be a little pride,  like a special relationship.

Devotee 2: Yes, probably that was that too. It all seems to be a dream to me. All the events, still, another thing back. I mean, it hasn’t really settled in. It just seems like a dream, and maybe that is how I should see it. It was just like a dream.

And did I tell you also that I always had a desire to go on Govardhana parikramā with her? This was something which I was very bothered that, “Oh, no, I cannot do a Govardhana parikramā with her. This was such a loss.” Then, probably about three, four days, maybe four or five days before she left, that is when Mahatma Prabhu and Gurudeva, were watching a video of the Holy Festival in Vrindavan. We were watching the video, and all the devotees were there, and everybody was very jolly and so humorous to video, all the men and women, throwing dye at each other. And then, Mother Kirtida was also enjoying and Gurudeva, he was really enjoying the video so much. Somehow, the conversation went to Govardhana. And then, was it she or Gurudeva told me to go and get a book of the Govardhana parikramā? And then, Gurudeva was on this side, and I was on the other side and Mother Kirtida was in middle. And we were going through the book, page after page, and she was just kind of giving me a parikramā lying on a bed. She was telling, “This is where, this is what, if you go this place, you will see this, and this is what happens there.” And she just gave me an entire parikramā on the bed. And Gurudeva was there and I felt, “Wow, this is so wonderful that even that desire I had, you fulfilled it. It is very amazing. Krishna is so wonderful.”

Devotee: There is kind of a heavy period when Goswami Maharaja, after Mother Kirtida  left. Then, he went back to England and he arrived right in time for the London Ratha-yatra festival.

Giriraj Swami: Actually, I remember that.

Devotee: That was actually helpful because it was beautiful sunny weather. And the year before, he had joined the Ratha-yatra and association with all the devotees a lot. And that was a bright spot. And it was a very elevating, even though it was painful, it was a very elevating kind of experience with Kirtida leaving in Dallas. And then he went back to England. And then that right after Ratha-yatra, then he went back to Cambridge. And the weather got kind of dark. And I think the whole thing of the experience had disoriented him a little bit from his intensity to do his studies. And then he was in the weather and everything. It just seemed like it hit him. I think he mostly missed the association devotees a lot because all those kirtans and it brought a lot of Vaishnava feelings and moods. And then all of a sudden, he is back in Cambridge. It is a little dry and the weather was a little weird. And then at that time we were serving, but he was a little more critical. And it felt like he was measuring us against Kirtida.

And it is kind of like, say you are the two brothers and the really the far-off brother who was like a swimming champion and a movie star, he died. And then the kind of a clad brother, who got polio and low IQ, then the parent is, getting on that brother’s case because he is the only one left in the round because  the parent is missing the other one. It felt like that a little bit for us. It was very intense. And he was a little bit measuring us against her. But we realized that he felt that nobody, none of his disciples had surrendered like she had and, kind of paid the price for Krishna consciousness as she had done in his very heavy period. And then after a relatively short time, he had already scheduled to go on a preaching tour. I think it was to Philippines and Taiwan. And so he went on that tour. And then as soon as he left, the landlady at Cambridge called us and said, “I am giving you two months’ notice to move out of the house.” And then it is almost like she didn’t want to tell him directly because she knew what a strong person he was. And she had promised him earlier that she would let us stay there until he finished his education there. But she told me that she was worried about a world-wide recession and whatever money she got from the house was her retirement income. And she was afraid that things might go way down. So she decided to sell it right away.

So then when he heard about that and he was preaching somewhere else and he had given her permission to re-plaster the whole house, he said, “I am going for this preaching for six weeks.” And at least, he went for a month. And he said, “Just do  the part closest to my office while I am gone.” So he made a big concession, partly on the goodwill of this lady, Mrs. Black, that we would be able to stay the whole time and get the benefit of the new painting and remodeling. And mostly for her own investment in the property, she wanted to do it. And so when he came back, the work had gone slower. So he was really angry about the whole idea of having to move. I mean, Kirtida had just left. Then all of a sudden, this nice comfortable place that really could work efficiently and suited his purposes, this was going away also. And the lady was kind of a little difficult as it  is. And then on top of all that, the workers had not done as much as they were supposed to do while he was gone.

So he only had maybe three weeks left in that place. And his mother wanted to visit and some godbrothers wanted to visit and he told them by such and such a week, they should be done with the renovation, so it should be quiet. And the mother came and the few godbrothers came, a vacation party, and I think they were still doing construction, painting smells, hammers every once in a while. It was a very heavy period. And then, we didn’t even know where we were going to move to in Oxford. And he was sending devotees to go to try to find places. And then none of them were sounding right to him on the phone. And he was saying, “No, no, no.” I don’t know where the stars were at that time, but it was a very heavy period. But then, when he finally got to Oxford, it was kind of a nice period because he got closer with his godbrothers. And that helped him, I think. Sometimes when there is one loss, it disorients us. And then there is a loss of your. . . I think I heard that if there is a death of a loved one, that is very traumatic. And if you have to move house, that is another major trauma. And another one is a divorce or something for a married person. So he encountered two of those in this short time. And it was kind of an intense thing. I don’t know why I brought that up, but just maybe to fill you in on that.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. No, I was glad to hear that.

Devotee: I went through some kind of personal troubles back then, just so many things. And then what I realized after that, he had told me I should write about Kirtida. And when he was measuring us against her, I kind of felt like besides all the other, a devotee and Krishna can do many things at one time. So I think the Vaishnava, advanced Vaishnava can do. Besides all the other reasons for glorifying Kirtida and inspiring devotees, I felt like he was almost saying, “Well, here is somebody that really is a devotee, and now you have to write about it.”  And I still feel like that. I feel honored in a way, but I feel at the same time a lot of impurities have come up. And I feel like I have to now glorify someone who I am not like, and who have the attitude of service that I don’t have. And it is like a very strange, a prolonged, unusual situation. But I don’t think. . . I never have dreams; I never remember my dreams. So I don’t have dreams, maybe just a few times I had a few dreams. I couldn’t remember if I knew something happened, just like dreams.

Devotee 2: I used to be able to recall every detail of my dreams. And now I can only recall probably the most significant part of a dream or the most heightened moment of a dream. And it is just funny.

Almost seems like Mother Kirtida’s entire life was preparation to serve Gurudeva and to set an amazing example of leaving a body. Seems like that; how she came to the U.S. all alone and struggled and worked so hard, and almost giving up her life, and coming to the temple, meeting the devotees, taking initiation, living in Vrindavan, and trying to give up a body and coming back to life, and serving the devotees, there so nicely and going Govardhana parikramā and coming at a time to help Gurudeva, in Cambridge, with his sickness, and then Gurudeva getting well, and then she preparing to leave the body. Lifetime of preparation seems like.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, after my surgery, she offered to come here to help me, and that was just a little after Gurudeva’s surgery. He used to joke that he was always a little ahead of me [Laughter]. So even in surgery, he was ahead of me, so he could sort of show the way and share his realizations with me and help me along this journey.

Devotee: Very trying times, those times were very trying. Mother Kirtida hardly slept those days, it was very difficult. He asked me, Gurudeva, I mean one day he called for some reason called home and say, “Why do you think Krishna made me go through this?” He asked me that. I was at a loss for words and I said based on what I have read, “Srila Gurudeva, sometimes Krishna puts His devotees in very awkward circumstances, just to actually only glorify the devotees even more.” So then he was silent a little bit and then he called for, to keep you down, somebody called on phone, for somebody at home. So I remember that pretty clearly.

Devotee 2: But also, I think, through his illness, usually lady disciples can’t serve as close, but because she was in the medical field, that was a special opportunity for very intimate exchange. And I think he wrote a paper about Vaishnava theology of suffering, and I was shocked at the end of the paper, he said that, that this experience, although it was so painful and discomforting, it enabled some very loving relationships to develop; with Ṛtadhvaja Maharaja. He thanked Ṛtadhvaja Maharaja and gifted in the paper in the footnote, and at the very end, he said, “For that benefit, I would go through this again.” Wow. And when I first read it, my mundane mind, I thought he is just throwing a catchy line to really, finish this paper and get a good grade. I couldn’t believe that he would be so sincere, because he is also a person that didn’t like pain, is sensitive to noise, and for him to say that, and actually he did mean it, I mean, I realized he did mean it.

And so, in that sense, I can see that that period of his difficulty allowed someone like Kirtida too, maybe it was the only way that in being a woman’s body, she could have the kind of experience that maybe a prominent servant. Twenty-four hours a day, you could call at one in the morning or something, that type of thing. And it broke down many of the barriers, which traditionally are there for reasons.

Devotee 2: He mentioned too that I never felt Kirtida to be motherly. He said, “When I knew her, she was just thin, and she didn’t have the posture of a mother, but then during my sickness days, I really began to see that she was actually my mother.” And he said that she gave life to me, gave me life to go on, come back again and do my service. So she gave me back my life, he said. So he was crying, he spoke about that; two times he spoke, that is when we were getting ready to take Mother Kirtida’s body out of the home, and he spoke and he was just sobbing. First time I saw him sobbing, I don’t know, anybody, even if his godbrothers have seen him sobbing, but he was just sobbing, sobbing, it is very intense. It is inconceivable, what kind of exchange they had was just like, we cannot, I can’t even conceive that in my dreams. And now we can appreciate, at least I can appreciate when Narottama dasa Thakura sings that, “I want to enter fire and bang my head against the rock,” and I am going to appreciate the sentiment there, at least, some time you drop off.

Giriraj Swami: In the end, I felt a tremendous sense of her being a mother, for me although we never had such a relationship before, at least apparently, we didn’t, but just, in a very powerful internal way, at the end, I felt not only that she was my mother, but I felt completely dependent on her. I felt like I didn’t know how I could continue without her. And when you are saying how, in the last month or so, she changed the way she dealt with you. I think also with us, what was a little different because after Srila Gurudeva’s Vyasa-puja, she seemed to have decided that she was going to leave. And before then, she reciprocated in such a humble way, as if our phone calls meant so much to her, and I am sure she was also completely sincere in whatever she said. But she would always say, our phone calls meant so much to her, and she felt so encouraged when we phoned. And Kesava Bharati Prabhu was here at the time, and she had told him that she was not going to leave before he came back, but, we could see something happen, and she seemed determined to leave.

So occasionally, Kesava Bharati Prabhu and I discussed that, we wanted her to stay. She said she promised that she would stay until I got back, and we felt, in any case, we should reveal our hearts to her. So we phoned, and we both spoke to her, and maybe we were also thinking of Prabhupada’s last days when the devotees asked him to stay. But she spoke to Srila Gurudeva after we spoke to her, then he phoned us. And basically, he said that she was determined to go now. And he also said that she was a nurse, so she knew very well what course her illness would take, and she wanted to leave before the pain became even more intense, because then, to tolerate the pain, she might have to take painkillers that would affect her consciousness, so she wanted to leave before the pain got worse. And we know she was so close to the spiritual world, she was almost there. I mean, practically she was there, even in a rooming house. So Goswami Maharaja said that she is going to run the red light, whether we like it or not. And he said, we have our individual relationships with her, and he is not going to tell us how to deal in our relationship with her, but he did want us to be aware of certain facts.

So then, Kesava Bharati Prabhu and I decided we would let some time pass and think about the whole thing. Sometime means a few hours because we spoke to her in the morning before lunch, well, I don’t know, lunch, but before midday, and then I went on a walk, and he stayed back here. We agreed that we would consider the whole situation and then discuss it later. So I went on a walk, and I remember on the walk, I thought, but I am able to feel her presence here in Carpentaria because there is also the question of whether we should try to come there. But I had some very strong commitments here for a few days. And when I explained the situation to Srila Gurudeva, he also agreed that the situation is such that I had to be here. Although the way she was going, she might leave within the days that I had to be here. But I thought, well, I am able to feel her presence here in Carpentaria while she is in Dallas, by spiritual connection.

So in the same way, I could also feel her presence when she departs for the spiritual abode. So I, more or less, came to the conclusion that we shouldn’t try to impose upon her to stay longer. And Kesava Bharati basically came to the same conclusion. So then we phoned her again, he encouraged her, “You go.” I wasn’t ready to encourage her to go. I wasn’t ready. But I told her we accepted that she was going to go, and then it was different, it was different. She was determined. But then she phoned, this was an amazing thing because I was always the one to phone her. And I think even more amazing, Srila Gurudeva put the call through. And he said, “Here is Mother Kirtida.” I mean, he spoke a little. And he would phone me. So I wasn’t terribly surprised that he phoned me, although I knew he would be very absorbed with Mother Kirtida’s departure.

And then she was in a very ecstatic mood because she had been looking at the picture of Gandharvika Giridhari. And she was saying, “Now, I know why you don’t want to leave this place, because They are here.” And it was like she was really seeing Radha and Krishna in a kuñja. Because when we had the other decoration, like a lot of stones, like Govardhana Hill, we didn’t have the backdrop from Radha-kunda. And she was talking like she was directly seeing Radha and Krishna. And then she was saying how, she was seeing Mañjarīs peeking through the bushes. I mean, it was amazing. And she said how she was appreciating Kunti for making nice arrangements for worship. So then I thought, well, she is going to reside eternally in this kuñja, we are not going to be separated. And then after she left, well, immediately after she left, we didn’t have a picture of her. But soon after she left, Chakri and Vishnu Priya came, because they were planning to come for a long time, but they wanted to stay as long as she was with the deities. And I felt that was the best thing that we ever did for the altar. And then I wrote to Srila Gurudeva. He was in Cambridge at the time. And I think he wrote back, “Yes, that is where she belongs.” But it is okay. This is sort of just another kuñja over there because we used to have. . . anyway. But she is there.

It is amazing how powerful Krishna consciousness is. It is really amazing. And it is encouraging because externally, she appeared, I mean, yes, she was a nice devotee and people who knew her were very impressed.