Q&A at Sarvatma’s

Giriraj Swami: In the case of a typical brahmachari or typical sannyasi, the demands of the body and the activities for the body are minimized, and most of his time and energy is saved for his spiritual practices of hearing, chanting, and remembering especially. But when one is a householder, he has more responsibilities in relation to the body and society. He has to take care of his wife and his children, and therefore, the proportion of time and energy spent on the conditional activities increases compared to the time and energy spent on the constitutional activities of śravaṇam, kīrtanam, smaraṇam, and so on. But even a brahmachari and maybe more particularly a sannyasi, when he preaches and establishes a preaching mission or becomes part of a preaching mission, he also accepts many responsibilities in relation to society.

For example, when Srila Prabhupada wanted to establish Hare Krishna Land in Juhu, Bombay, he, directly and indirectly through us, undertook many activities in relation to the world. First, he had to negotiate with the owner of the land, and there were legal complications and he had to deal with the municipality to get the permission to build, and then he had to deal with the contractors and the suppliers.

So, there were many activities meant for the service of the Lord and the pleasure of the Lord, which were not constitutional, in the sense that they were not hearing, and chanting, and remembering, as devotees do both in the material world and in the spiritual world. They were conditional in the sense that they related to conditions in the material world that you need bricks and cement, you need a contract, you need permits, you need so many things in the material world, and to get them, you deal with the material world.

So, the devotee has to be careful to balance the constitutional activities with the conditional activities, even if the conditional activities are related to spreading Krishna consciousness. And even very good devotees, when they deal too much with the material world in the course of trying to spread Krishna consciousness, and do not spend enough time in the association of devotees, hearing, chanting, and remembering Krishna, they can be affected by the material energy. And therefore, Srila Prabhupada says that the devotee should be very careful, or the devotee is very careful to maintain his wholesome condition.

Now, sometimes we say, and it is true, that in order to preach, we have to take risks. In India, the tradition was that a sannyasi should not cross the ocean because the people across the ocean were considered fallen, and if the sannyasi was to cross the ocean and deal with them, there was a chance that he would be affected. So, Srila Prabhupada took the risk, he crossed the ocean, he went to New York City, he lived on the Bowery, but because he was not only strong but also careful, he was able to maintain his spiritual position. And sometimes Srila Prabhupada would encourage his disciples in the same way, to take risks for the sake of helping others.

But once, one young disciple went from Bombay to South Africa to preach. He was perhaps the first devotee, or one of the first devotees who went to South Africa to preach. And he started to go to the beach, and because of lack of association, he became lax in his spiritual practices, and [Unintelligible 00:06:50] the sun and sort of natural beauty and healthy pleasures there. So, after some time, he came back to Bombay, and Srila Prabhupada told him how much anxiety he had been in about him, and he said that whenever he sends his preachers to a new place, he is in anxiety about them. But then again, preaching is so important. And then Prabhupada quoted Lord Krishna,

yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati bhārata

That Krishna Himself comes to the material world to preach. So, preaching is such an important activity that even Krishna Himself comes to preach. And therefore, Krishna says that one who preaches His message is His most dear most servant, and there will never be one as dear to the Lord as the preacher, and in the end, he will go back home, back to Godhead.

But in order to preach, the preacher must deal with conditioned souls, by definition. And further, when he develops a preaching mission or institution, he has to deal with the material world in other ways as well. And therefore, there is some risk that the conditional activities, if they are not balanced by enough constitutional activities, will, temporarily at least, draw the person more and more into the material world, to the point that the person is not able to maintain his strict spiritual practices. Well, it’s a combination, but he will become weak, and when he is weak, he may fall down, temporarily.

But even then, because Krishna knows that his actual desire was to serve Krishna and preach and help others, Krishna within the heart will purify him and help him to come back to the proper standard. But we, from our side, should be careful. We take risks, but we should not take bad risks. We should assess the risk and try to maintain our spiritual practices even in the material world.

And the principle is basically the same. Although the duties of the preacher are more important from the spiritual point of view in one sense, even then, the duties of the householder are also important. Srila Prabhupada wanted ideal devotees to show the example to others in all stages of life. And therefore, he wanted ideal householders, and most of the world will be householders, they are householders, and they will be householders. And therefore, Prabhupada wanted householder devotees to show other householders how they can be Krishna conscious, but at the same time, have a wife, and family, and work, and so on.

So, even there, the same principle applies. I am speaking from the male’s point of view, but the same principle applies to everyone. But I am speaking from the male’s point of view. He has to spend time with his wife, he has to spend time with his children, he may have to do things with them to please them that are not directly Krishna conscious, and then, of course, he will have to work, earn money, and pay bills. I mean, it could be the husband or the wife.

But the same principle applies, that he will want to make sure that he has enough of the constitutional activities of hearing, and chanting, and remembering in the association of devotees, especially more advanced devotees, that he can continue with his conditional activities without his constitutional activities being disturbed. But even then, if he becomes too entangled in meeting the challenges of the material world in the course of his conditional activities, still, Krishna is in his heart, Krishna knows that he is a devotee, and Krishna will help him come back to the path.

So, that’s why whatever condition we are in, if we are devotees, even if accidentally we fall down, Krishna is in our heart and He will help us. And others should not deride a devotee for such a fall down because he is a devotee and that’s what Krishna sees, and whatever the defects are, we should see them just like spots on the moon and not take them seriously. Hare Krishna.

Devotee: Anyone else has a question for Maharaja?

Devotee: Are we to assume then that people that are in royalty today were formally in Krishna consciousness and took a higher birth in their other body? Like the queen of England.

Giriraj Swami: Rose is asking if birth in royal family is an indication of practice of Krishna consciousness in one’s past life, on the basis of śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe.

We can say for sure that the person has performed pious activities because the result of pious activities is material opulence. Now, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, as quoted by Srila Prabhupada in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, has said that there are actually three kinds of pious activities. Karma muka sukriti, or pious activities that lead to material enjoyment, and then there are pious activities that lead to impersonal liberation, and there are pious activities that lead to devotional service.

I think that in the case of some of the great kings of India, we can say that they had performed devotional service, because in the next life, they continued devotional service. I mean, one part of the exertion of Lord Krishna is that the fallen yogi will take birth in a rich family or a pious family, but the other part is that in the next life, he will continue the process of devotional service. He will naturally be attracted to the principles of yoga. So, we see such cases in the history of India.

Then again, taking birth in a rich family is a facility because the person does not have to worry about his physical maintenance so much, so if he wants to practice Krishna consciousness, he is more free to do so. But the other side of it is that he may be allured by the material opulence and forget Krishna consciousness.

So, whether a person born in a wealthy family has taken birth there just because of past material pious activities or not cannot really be seen. But if he takes advantage of the situation to make further progress in Krishna consciousness, then we may conclude that he performed devotional service in the past life. And if he does not make further progress, most likely, he just performed material pious activities. But there is a chance that he did perform some devotional service, but taking birth in all the opulence, he forgot the spiritual purpose of life, and again, temporarily, for one lifetime or however many, he became diverted from the path.

Devotee: Well, now on the other extreme, there have been a pope in many past years where the popes have engaged in welfare and have been responsible for killing people. Now, these popes were engaged in devotional service in their time, yet they acted as soldiers. And then there were people like Hitler who achieved great power. He had everything he ever wanted, and yet he was evil.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. I mean, any powerful person has performed austerities. Hiraṇyakaśipu performed austerities, standing on his toes and holding his arms up raised. So, anyone who performs austerities will get powers, and if he is a devotee, he will use the powers for the good of others, and if he is a demon, he will use the powers for his own benefit at the expense of others. So, we do come to the point that we can’t really conclude that someone who has power was a devotee, because his power may have been achieved by his austerities, but his austerities could have been done outside of Krishna consciousness.

Devotee: But although the man, like Hitler, who came from a very insignificant family, and with such power, he had everything in the world that he wanted, and he was very satisfied with his life. In his next life, does he become an animal?

Giriraj Swami: I doubt it.

Devotee: Not even an animal?

Giriraj Swami: A germ is more likely.

Devotee: I have a question. What is the position of someone who falls into the mistake of enjoying Krishna consciousness, as opposed to [Unintelligible 00:23:19] who is chanting as if having a state of enjoyment instead of a humble state? I didn’t understand the position of someone who is good at chanting, at hearing the pastimes, and what is that line experiencing the bliss of it and the enjoyment? What is the position of that person? Is he still getting some benefit?

Giriraj Swami: Well, they would be getting benefits. I mean, I don’t know the context of the question, so I can’t answer properly.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:24:12] and thinking, Wait a minute, are we supposed to be enjoying? Well, not in the material sense, but I mean, in our transcendental sound vibration.

Giriraj Swami: I mean, without reference to the passage in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, I can say that once, Gurudas Prabhu told Srila Prabhupada that he liked playing the kartals in the kirtan, and wasn’t that sense gratification? And Srila Prabhupada answered, “There are two kinds of sense gratification; material and spiritual. And since you are playing the kartals for Krishna, it is spiritual sense gratification.”

Devotee: So, say I’m reading the [Unintelligible 00:25:06] and I’m really enjoying it. I mean, totally as if it were an exciting novel I had read.

Giriraj Swami: That’s good. That’s good.

Devotee: Then I was reading that and I was just enjoying it at the expense of. . . It was hard to understand how you define that. So, is that spiritual enjoyment?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, I mean, I would say so. I mean, with an ordinary novel or a movie, we can get enjoyment through the hero or heroine. Or even the other way, we can have lamentation through the hero or the heroine. There is a story of one woman who cried through the whole Rāmāyaṇa, and at the end, she said, “I also had a son who left home.” So, she was hearing the Rāmāyaṇa, but she wasn’t completely hearing purely, but things in the Rāmāyaṇa reminded her about her own life. And therefore, one cannot say that the experience she had was purely spiritual.

But at the same time, we want to continue hearing the scriptures in the association of devotees, even if our response is not completely pure, because by continued hearing, we will be purified. So, even if we think, Well, our hearing is not completely pure, still, we should continue.

Devotee: This discussion reminds me of something I read where a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada that he felt he shouldn’t desire to go back to Godhead because it was a selfish desire for his own pleasure that he would be able to go back to the spiritual world and enjoy bliss with Krishna. And so, he was questioning Srila Prabhupada, “Is this improper that I should desire to go back to Godhead because it’s a selfish desire?” But Srila Prabhupada said that at the stage that the devotee was, he should desire very much to go back to Godhead, and when he actually becomes fully purified, then he will desire what Krishna desires, so it will not even be an issue with it being in the spiritual world.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, that’s a very important point. We should not try to imitate a devotee on a higher level. In Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Rupa Gosvami mentions six characteristics of pure devotional service, and one is [Unintelligible 00:29:09], which means that it minimizes the value of liberation. And two of the six characteristics are prominent in sādhana-bhakti, two are prominent in bhāva-bhakti, and two are prominent in prema-bhakti. So, [Unintelligible 00:29:30] really becomes prominent in bhāva-bhakti, which is the stage of liberation. So, when one is at the stage of liberation, he has no desire for liberation because he is already liberated.

Maybe from another point of view, Srila Prabhupada said that. . . Well, it’s in the Bhāgavatam, in the Third Canto. Prabhupada paraphrased it that a devotee who is influenced by the mode of ignorance thinks, I am the only devotee. I am the only one who is doing any service around here, everyone else is bogus. And someone influenced by the mode of passion will think, I want to become the best devotee. I want to be known as the best devotee. And someone in the mode of goodness will think, I want to go back home, back to Godhead. And one who is transcendentally situated will think, I just want to please Krishna.

So, generally, we are coming from some position in the modes of nature, and probably in the beginning, there is influence of the lower modes. So, just to have the desire to want to go back to Godhead is good. It’s actually good to desire to go back to Godhead. So, we shouldn’t try to imitate a devotee on a higher level, we should sort of accept our desire to go back to Godhead and try to do all the things we have to do to get there.

Devotee: So, was pleasing Krishna the first requisite?

Giriraj Swami: Well, the definition of devotional service is to cultivate activities for the pleasure of Krishna, and the definition applies in sādhana-bhakti, and bhāva-bhakti, and prema-bhakti, but it is fulfilled perfectly in bhāva-bhakti and prema-bhakti.

The fact that the disciple asked Srila Prabhupada, or the fact that one of the devotees here raised the question means that they don’t want to be liberated for the sake of personal enjoyment. They really want to do what pleases Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, and therefore they ask.

Devotee: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: So, that means that the true spirit of devotion is there. They just want to do what pleases Krishna. And if enjoying hearing Krishna’s pastimes won’t please Krishna, then they want to know, or if desiring to go back to Godhead won’t please guru and Krishna, they want to know. So, that means that the ultimate goal is to please guru and Krishna, and therefore, they are counted as devotees.

Devotee: And one can pick that up at any time in their lifetime?

Giriraj Swami: Oh yes.

Devotee: At any time?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Devotee: Even those just before their death?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Devotee: And at any age and regardless of their past activities?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. They are saying there is too much hot air in the room. So, it’s time to stop.

Devotee: Thank you, Maharaja. Thank you all for coming.

Giriraj Swami: Thank you very much for inviting me.