SB 5.1.8 – Priyavrata’s Dilemma

Giriraj Swami: So the present verse and purport create a challenge to modern mundane conceptions of the universe, although there is some slight openness to the possibility there might be some amoebic life on other planets. But here we read that there are highly evolved beings on different planets, that they are able to travel from one planet to the other, that they have interaction with the residents of other planets, and that in fact there is a hierarchy within the universe, a hierarchy of planets and the hierarchy of personalities. So the descriptions here pose not only a challenge to empirical scientists, but they actually pose a challenge to faith of some devotees because we also have intelligence. We consider whether what we read, and hear is true or not, and we also were trained in modern scientific methods and thoughts, especially the last sentence - On this earth however we have not invented any machine that can go directly from one planet to another, although an unsuccessful attempt has been made to go directly to the moon.

When man first supposedly went to the moon, Srila Prabhupada challenged the idea very strongly. Of course, the point is controversial in the sense that many people have different ideas on the subject. The Prabhupada Līlāmṛta describes that Srila Prabhupada was in England at the time of the moon shot. And that some of the devotees were so interested, that Prabhupada see the demonstration that they had a television. They brought in as television, and it just so happened that the landing on the moon was going to coincide with Prabhupada’s massage. So Dhananjaya Prabhu was Srila Prabhupada’s personal assistant, and he was giving Srila Prabhupada his massage during the telecast. And as he was massaging Srila Prabhupada, his attention kept going to the telecast and Prabhupada kept having to correct him because he wasn’t massaging properly. And so, he would be massaging, when he would start looking at the television and Prabhupada would say, “What is the matter? Don’t you know how to massage properly?” So then, “Okay,” and then he would start to massage again. And then he would turn to watch the telecast. And then Prabhupada actually took his hand and put his hand on his body and said, “This is how you massage.” So it was quite an event. 

Meanwhile Srila Prabhupada had another servant with him, named Puruṣottama, and Puruṣottama, he was inclined to believe what the media were saying. And Srila Prabhupada kept making fun of the moon shot and making fun of Puruṣottama. So one time, when Srila Prabhupada was in his room, Mother Malati was cooking in the kitchen, and somehow something went wrong in the kitchen and there was a big explosion. And everyone in the whole house was startled because of the noise. So Mother Malati came into Srila Prabhupada’s room and she was all covered with black soot. And  Puruṣottama heard the sound of the blast and he was concerned, he did not know if Prabhupada was alright, so he came running in, and there was Prabhupada peacefully sitting on his asana and Mother Malati covered by black all over. And he came running in and he said, “Prabhupada, Prabhupada, what happened?” And Prabhupada pointed at Mother Malati and said, “She has just returned from the moon.”

So everyone had a good laugh except Puruṣottama, he did not think it so funny and eventually Puruṣottama left. It was too much for him. Of course, he left in a very nice way and Prabhupada actually loaned him the money to move on and he repaid Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada was aware that disciples would have difficulty with some of his statements, or some of the statements of the Bhāgavatam. In fact the Fifth Canto further on, describes the structure of the universe; different planets and the earth in ways that sound very different from what we learn in science textbooks and classrooms. And Srila Prabhupada said that, predicted that, some of his disciples would leave when the Fifth Canto comes out, because they won’t be able to accept what is written there. So Srila Prabhupada was aware of the fact that some of the statements of the scriptures, and some of his statements were so different from the way we are accustomed to thinking, that even his own disciples would not be able to digest the ideas and they would leave. But Srila Prabhupada himself was completely faithful to the scriptures. When he presented the scriptures, he supported them with his own knowledge and experience. And he would always support and defend the Vedic view.

Now regarding the moon shot, our godbrother Tejas Prabhu was in India at the time. He was actually in the Peace Corps. And he said that when the news was broadcast, at least the villagers among whom he was working, they did not accept it. They immediately said, “Oh, they can’t go to the moon. The moon is a heavenly planet, they just can’t take a machine and go to the moon.” So they did not believe it. And I even heard that, at the initial stage, the Russian government or the Russian press denied that the moon shot had actually taken place or been successfully executed. But then later they went along with it because, although there was the cold war and rivalry between the United States and Russia, on the highest level, the demons that are in power want to keep the people faithful to them. And so if the people lose faith in one leader, in a way, it is a precedent that may cause people to lose faith in other leaders. So although they do compete on a certain level but on another level, they all have the same interest, which is to subdue and exploit the people. So then they went along with it and they thought it is good if the people believe that the government programs are successful because then the people will give more taxes and be more submissive.  

Even during Srila Prabhupada’ time, there were disciples that questioned, not only issues about the universe, but even some of the statements about kṛṣṇa-līlā, like there are statements in the Bhāgavatam about how many cows Nanda Maharaja had. I forget the figure. When I read it, I was actually very proud that Nanda Maharaja was so popular, and he could give whatever it was, fifteen thousand cows in charity every day. But some of the disciples, they questioned the factualness of the description, fantastic figures about how many people lived in Dwarka, and so many things. And Srila Prabhupada replied, “Well, that is just the way the Puranas are. The Puranas are filled with such descriptions. And if you can’t accept them, well that is just the way they are, and we can’t do anything about it.” In other word, he was saying, “I can’t change it for your sake, that is just the way they are and that is the best I can do. I can just present it as it is and that is just the best I can do, and if you are not satisfied, I am sorry but that is just the best, I can do.” 

And of course, sometimes devotees distinguished between statements that relate to the physical universe and statements that relate to the spiritual process of Krishna consciousness in the spiritual world.  And they say that the subjects that deal with the physical universe may be considered from the empirical point of view, but the topics that relate to the spiritual world, we just accept as they are. Now the problem is an old one, the conflict between modern rational scientific views and the Vedic statements is an old one. And it came up in the nineteenth century when rational modern scientific views from Europe, and I guess America were coming to India, and the Bengali intellectual were considering all the new ideas. 

So Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, he wanted to appeal to the intellectuals, and if he would have taken a very dogmatic view of the Vedas, and completely dismissed the view of the rationalists and the scientists, the intellectuals in Bengal would have rejected him. They would have thought he was just a sentimentalists or a fanatic. So especially in the introduction to Krishna’s sangeeta, he explains the modern, so called rational scientific critical view of the Bhāgavatam, what they say. And basically he addresses his readers and he says that he wants the faithful to read the book, but he also wants the intellectuals to read the book. And he knew the intellectuals would like the introduction, but he was afraid that they might not read the rest of the books because of the stories of kṛṣṇa-līlā. And he also was concerned that the faithful might reject the book because of the introduction. They would not like to hear all these so called rational explanations of the Bhāgavatam. So he was in a difficult position because he did not want to alienate the intellectuals or the faithful, and so he explained that there are different categories of seekers. Some are faithful already, but their faith is not really mature and they only like to hear things that encourage their faith, which is common in almost every tradition. The neophytes , they conceive of religion as they know it in their tradition. And they like the scriptures of their tradition, and the language of their tradition, and the dress of their tradition, and the ritual symbols of their tradition, and they won’t feel comfortable with anything else. They don’t feel comfortable or they may act, if they are really fanatical. Of course Hinduism is not fanatical like that but if they are really fanatical, they will think you are of the devil. 

Many times on saṅkīrtana at Boston, people would come up, “Oh you are of the devil,” or people would be buying books. We would be in the middle of a sale or an interaction and someone would say, “Don’t buy that. These people are of the devil. You will go to hell.” So that is there. So those whose faith is soft, they are not open to other ideas, they are not able to consider the unity of ideas between different traditions, so they are called komola sraddis, people whose faith is soft. And then there are other class of seeker that Bhaktivinoda Thakura mentions, are the intellectuals, he calls them madhyams. They  have questions, they wants answers to their questions. They don’t just don’t want part answers based on their traditions. Like many of us when we came to Srila Prabhupada in the sixties and seventies, we had a lot of questions. We were seeking; we had a lot of questions, we wanted answers. We did not want a Bible thumper, or a Gītā thumper, to say, “Well it says here. . .,” and because of his realization, because of his great knowledge and realization he was able to satisfy most of us. And he said that, “I don’t want you to accept Krishna consciousness blindly, I want you to consider it with your intelligence and then when you are convinced, you accept it.”

But of course, it is true that one’s intelligence can only go so far because the intelligence is material, so it can only approach the level of Brahman, impersonal brahman. The intelligence cannot know of the transcendental form of the Lord or the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. That knowledge can come only by submissive oral reception. But Srila Prabhupada said you can take the intelligence as far as it will carry you, which is just to that point, that there is a spiritual source of everything, or there is a spiritual background to everything. And then you have to surrender, to go beyond the idea that there is a spiritual source or background to everything, you have to surrender and hear from authorities. So that is the process of sankhyavi, analysis of the world. The material scientists do something comparable to sankhyavi, they analyze the material world, the elements of the material world. 

And Srila Prabhupada explains that that is one approach, that by analyzing a plant, you can conclude that there is a root, like Sankhyaprocess. And the devotional process is, you water the root of the plant, you can’t see the root, but you water the root of the plant and you see how the plant grows when it is watered and then you conclude that there are roots under the plants. But they both come to the same conclusion, to the point that there is a spiritual root to existence. But devotional service goes beyond the conclusion that there is a root to the point that we water the root, we serve the origin of all; that is Krishna. 

So although our intelligence can take us to a certain point, at a certain point we just have to surrender. And in Indore, one of Srila Prabhupada’s disciple, Revatinandana dasa, he asked Srila Prabhupada that, “In some places we read that all the planetary systems are contained within the stem, of the lotus that sprouts from the navel of Lord Vishnu. And in other places we read that Lord Brahma sits on top of the lotus flower and creates the planets and the planets are all around him outside of the lotus. So how do we reconcile the two?” And Srila Prabhupada said these things are inconceivable, you cannot understand them with your teeny brain, so our business is to love Krishna. So ultimately, we do come to that point that, the descriptions are there, the persons who give the descriptions are on a different level of consciousness than we are, and they are trying to explain what they know, from their point of view, and make it accessible to us, or seeing things from our point of view. But we may not be able to grasp them because they are inconceivable. But when it comes to the process of Krishna consciousness, that is something that is accessible to all of us and we can experience for ourselves. Even if one is not ready to accept the descriptions about the universe, one can still accept the process of Krishna consciousness and get the result.

And there were cases were disciples, there is one case in particular Krishna dasa, who had done a lot of service for Srila Prabhupada, and then he drifted away. And then he was coming back again, but he was still troubled by some of these statements about the universe, whatever it was. And Srila Prabhupada said that there are people that give allegorical explanations of parts of the Bhāgavatam that deal with universe. And Prabhupada did not say that he accepted them, but he said that there are people who give allegorical interpretations. But what Prabhupada did say is that the main thing is to be Krishna conscious and it is not worth missing the chance to be Krishna conscious over the details or controversies about the structure of the universe, or the history of the universe. So Prabhupada did not think it was a valid reason for someone to give up the process of Krishna consciousness, just because he did not accept as literal truth, what the Bhāgavatam said about the universe. Nor did Prabhupada say that he was disqualified, or offensive, or anything. He just said, “well, alright, well then, let us leave that aside, some people do give allegorical interpretations. I am not insisting that you have to accept it as literal truth, but let us not miss the main point, the real point, which is Krishna consciousness. So that is the real point. And that comes from surrender, that realization of Krishna consciousness comes from surrender, from basically surrender to the spiritual master, service to the spiritual master. 

And from that, one gets transcendental realization, as was the case with Priyavrata, because he surrendered to Narada Muni, a spiritual master. [Break in audio] spiritual advancement. Therefore it is said, yasya deve parā bhaktir,yathā deve tathā gurau tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ,prakāśante mahātmanaḥ, that one who has implicit faith in the spiritual master, and in the scriptures, in the Vedas, all the imports of the Vedas are revealed to him. And Srila Prabhupada applied the same principle to the other famous verse from the Bhāgavatam, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, that by serving the pure devotee, or by reading the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, all that is inauspicious in the heart becomes destroyed almost to nil. And transcendental loving service to the Lord is established as in irrevocable fact. 

So there was a time in India when, well a lot of the time in India in the early days, we really worked hard. Srila Prabhupada really worked us hard and we were lucky if we were able to chant our rounds, and there was almost no question of reading Prabhupada’s books then. And so it was sort of bothering me, I was a relatively young devotee, maybe two years and it was bothering me that I wasn’t reading. I thought I should be reading, we are supposed to read. So Srila Prabhupada quoted the verse, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu.nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, and said that by serving the person Bhagavat, or reading the book Bhagavat, one gets the same result. And that by serving the person Bhagavat, all the truth of the book Bhagavat will be revealed, even if you never read the book. So he was encouraging us to be surrendered to his will, to his service, and not to worry about our spiritual advancement or realization independently. And I think the devotees who did surrender to Srila Prabhupada’s service did make advancement by his mercy. 

I am thinking of one time when we were in Juhu. We were actually staying with Srila Prabhupada in a house that belonged to Mr. Shetty. The house was still not completely finished, it was a new house that he was building, in the Juhu scheme, which he named Vrindavan. And because of all the intrigues about the Juhu land and the complications in getting the land transferred to the name of ISKCON, we weren’t able to build on the property. So we did not really have any proper place for Srila Prabhupada, so we had to arrange for him to stay in different people’s home. So Mr. Shetty’s house was almost finished. It was livable, there was some work to be done, but it was livable. So he said that Srila Prabhupada and some disciples could stay there. So at the time we had a life member who was also a devotee and friend named (unintelligible 00:35:19). He was a lawyer. Actually, I think Matalili was the one who met him and he was very enthusiastic when she met him and she was enthusiastic and told us about him, and he actually was very enthusiastic, and he was willing to help us as a lawyer. So he was dealing with some of the legal aspects of the affair with Nair and the land. And Prabhupada just really wanted to know what had happened? So at  6:00 in the morning, he told Tamal Krishna Goswami, what is the news from Asnani, and Tamal Krishna Goswami said well he hadn’t heard anything. So Prabhupada  said, “Well, go and phone him.” “Now?” “Yes, right now”

And we did not have a telephone in that house and in fact it was not easy to get a telephone in India then. In fact, before we even came to India, Srila Prabhupada was saying how the Indian politicians are the most corrupt in the world. and that just to get a telephone, you have to pay a ten thousand rupee bribe. So anyway, we did not have a telephone and so Tamal Krishna Goswami had to go in the neighborhood at 6:00 in the morning and try to find some householder, that would let him use the phone. So he did it and he phoned, and Mrs. Asnini answered the phone and Goswami Maharaja said, “I would like to speak to Mr. Asnani, Srila Prabhupada wants me to get some information.” So she said, “Just a second.” And moments later, she returned and said that, “Mr. Asnani is doing his puja, and he would like you to phone back in an hour.”

So I wasn’t there, I was in the house with Srila Prabhupada. But I was there when Goswami Maharaja returned and he was a bit angry. And he told Srila Prabhupada, “Srila Prabhupada, the pure devotee of the Lord wants Mr. Asnani to come to the phone, and give him some information. And Mr. Asnani thinks that it is more important to do his puja. What a fool, he does not get it.” But Srila Prabhupada moderated Goswami Maharaja’s mood, and he said, “No, actually it is good, for someone on his level, it is good to be very regulated, and very strict.” 

So it may be that not everyone can serve in that way of being ready to do anything for Srila Prabhupada, at any time of day or night. And it may also be that, some devotees in the name of service have gone too far. And they have neglected being regulated, they have neglected chanting their rounds. Of course chanting the rounds was always mandatory. Srila Prabhupada said if you are too busy, and we really were busy, that if you are too busy you can even miss the class. He did not like it but he said, “If you are too busy, you can miss the class.” But he never gave us permission not to chant our rounds. The only concession was if we miss, we can make them up. He did not compromise on rounds but the other parts of the morning programs, if there really was essential service to be done, then he said it is okay. 

So yes, some devotees could go too far and neglect chanting, which wasn’t what Prabhupada said, but that is what I mean by too far. They neglect chanting and they would have spiritual difficulties. But otherwise, at least from my experience and the experience of other devotees, the ones that really did serve Srila Prabhupada with heart and soul, without personal consideration ike Bhagavad-gītā purports says that, one who serves the spiritual master without reservation, by the blessing of the spiritual master, he can make spiritual advancement, even without following all the rules and regulations, or following the rules and regulations will be easier for one who serves the spiritual master, without reservation. But that has always been the distinctive feature of Srila Prabhupada’s mood; service to the spiritual master. That is how he presented himself, as the servant of his spiritual master and that is how he trained us, and engaged us, and that really is the secret of success, which Prabhupada said, that is the secret of success.

Hare Krishna

Are there any questions or comments? Yes, Prajapati Prabhu

Prajapati Prabhu: I am asking this on behalf of others as well, but the questions is that when the spiritual master leaves this world, then where does one look for the understanding (unintelligible 00:42:02-08)

Giriraj swami: Well, the general answer is, sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya, because there are three authorities- sadhu, shastra, and guru. So now you are saying that the guru has left.

Prajapati Prabhu: Yes, our guru, Prabhupada has left.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is what I meant. So of course, we do have the instructions that he have us when he was present, but for new guidance, of course the scriptures are there but there are so many things in the scriptures. How do you know which instructions apply? And then there are sadhus. Sadhus are shisha gurus. They can help us. And then there is the chaitya guru, guru in the heart. And if we are sincere enough, and surrendered enough, then the Lord in the heart, or the guru in the heart will also give dictation. But you have to qualified. 

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

Therefore constantly engage in service with affection, then the Lord in the heart, or the guru in the heart will give direction. And then sometimes we hear that one gets inspiration from within the heart but then one confirms it from without. So yes, sadhu sanga. Of course, there is also a quality to sadhu sanga and the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu says, (unintelligible 00:44:21-25), the verse says that one should associate with devotees who are in the same camp, you could say. In our case, they would probably be Prabhupada’s followers, who are affectionate, and who are more advanced than one self. So that is what we would look for.