SB 8.9.12

Giriraj Swami:

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

We read from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Canto Eight, Chapter Nine: “The Lord Incarnates as Mohinī-Mūrti.”

TEXT 12

tato gṛhītvāmṛta-bhājanaṁ harir

babhāṣa īṣat-smita-śobhayā girā

yady abhyupetaṁ kva ca sādhv asādhu vā

kṛtaṁ mayā vo vibhaje sudhām imām

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, having taken possession of the container of nectar, smiled slightly and spoke in attractive words. She said: My dear demons, if you accept whatever I may do, whether honest or dishonest, then I can take responsibility for dividing the nectar among you.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

The Supreme Personality of Godhead cannot abide by anyone’s dictation. Whatever He does is absolute. The demons, of course, were deluded by the illusory potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus Mohinī-mūrti got them to promise that whatever She would do they would accept.

COMMENT

Although the Supreme Lord is all-powerful and independent, still he does not force the living entities. And in the case of the pot of nectar, the demons were in possession of it, and although the Lord could have taken it by force, He did not do so in consideration of dharma or religious principles. The demons and devotees or demigods are always striving for supremacy over the other and we find also in the Eighth Canto that at one stage the demons led by Bali Maharaja were successful by the grace of their spiritual master and the brahmans, and the demigods were routed by them. Thus Bali Maharaja conquered the three worlds. The demigods appealed to Lord Vishnu to intervene and help them. The Bhāgavatam explains that because Bali Maharaja had conquered the three worlds by legitimate means in battle, the Lord could not in consideration of religious principles take it away by force. So He assumed the form of a little brahman, Vamanadeva, and begged charity from Bali Maharaja. The Lord accepts particular forms in consideration of the mentality of the devotee or even in terms of the mentality of the demon. Bali Maharaja was born in the demon family, but he was very charitably disposed towards brahmans. So the Lord, knowing Bali Maharaja’s nature, assumed the form of a brahman, and begged charity from him, but He did not take the universe back by force.

Here too the Lord assumed the form of Mohini-murti knowing how lusty the demons are. As Mohini-murti did not take the pot of nectar by force, but by Her attractive features and joking words, inspired them to give Her the pot of nectar voluntarily.

Now having received the pot of nectar from them, there was still the question of how to divide it and She wanted to make sure that the demons agreed to let Her divide it in whatever way She wanted. And they did agree. So one’s agreement or one’s word is very important. Although they were demons, still Mohini-murti considered that if they gave their word to allow Her to deal with the nectar in whatever way She thought fit that it would have some meaning. It would have some value.

So the Lord respects the minute independence of the living entity. The first verse of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says: janmādy asya yataḥ, that the Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates. We living entities also emanate from the Absolute Truth, from Krishna, so we have the same qualities as Krishna, but in minute quantity. One of Krishna’s qualities is mentioned in the same verse: svarāṭ. Abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means “fully independent.” So Krishna is fully independent. We have minute independence which means we have freewill. We are dependent. By nature we are dependent so our minute independence is whether we want to surrender to Krishna or to maya. We will always be surrendered either to Krishna or to maya. We cannot become fully independent like Krishna.

We find the same principle in the Bhagavad-gītā. Krishna wanted Arjuna to fight against the Kauravas, but Krishna did not force him. After speaking the whole Bhagavad-gītā, He said, “Now you have heard whatever I have said. You deliberate on it and, yathecchasi tathā kuru, then whatever you like, you do.” Arjuna said: smṛtir labdhā, that, “Now my memory has come back.”

Yesterday His Holiness Lokanath Swami described the process of entanglement of the living entity and how the living entity ultimately falls down: dhyāyato viṣayān puṁsaḥ, that when the senses dwell on the objects of the senses, attachment develops, and saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ, from attachment lust develops, and from lust comes anger, from anger comes bewilderment of memory (smṛti-vibhramaḥ) from bewilderment of memory one’s intelligence is lost and then praṇaśyati, one falls down.

So Arjuna, by the will of the Lord we could say, was bewildered. He was confused what to do and what not to do. Therefore he surrendered to the Lord as a disciple. Śiṣyas te ‘haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam. It was when Arjuna admitted that he was confused about his duty and surrendered to Krishna saying, śiṣyas te ‘haṁ: “Now I am Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto you. Please instruct me,” then Krishna was able to speak the Bhagavad-gītā to him. Up until then He could not because Arjuna was thinking that he was on the same level as Krishna or more or less on the same level. And they were arguing back and forth. But when Arjuna understood that, “This arguing back and forth without any conclusion, this is not really helping me,” then he surrendered to Krishna, and then Krishna could instruct him.

Immediately Krishna chided him that, “You are speaking learned words, but you are lamenting for that which is not worthy of grief.” In other words, the body. “You are lamenting for the body and those who are wise do not lament for the body either in the living condition or the dead condition.” Srila Prabhupada said that Krishna was calling him indirectly a fool. On Srila Tamal Krishna Goswami’s Vyasa-puja we heard from one disciple how Tamal Krishna Goswami called her fool about fifteen times within a few minutes. Of course that was out of affection which is true. Krishna speaking to Arjuna is also out of affection. So He called him indirectly a fool. In other words, “A wise man does not speak the way you are speaking.” Prabhupada gives the example, you say to someone, “You do not look like an honest person.” Indirectly you are saying, “He’s a thief.” “You are not speaking like a learned person. You are not speaking like a wise person. So you are a fool.” When the disciple actually feels like a fool before the spiritual master then he can receive transcendental knowledge. The disciple always feels that way, the properly situated disciple always feels that way even in the liberated condition.

We find in Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta that Lord Chaitanya explained that His spiritual master thought Him to be a fool. Guru more mūrkha dekhi’ karila śāsana. He said, “My spiritual master considered Me to be a fool and he chastised Me.” Srila Prabhupada says that the disciple should always feel himself to be a fool before the spiritual master and be ready to be chastised by him.

The context of this exchange between Lord Chaitanya and His spiritual master, Lord Chaitanya’s spiritual master Isvara Puri told Him that, “You are not fit to study Vedanta. You should just chant the holy name of Krishna.” So Lord Chaitanya took the instruction of His spiritual master and began to chant the holy name of Krishna. He found that He was developing various symptoms: singing, dancing like a madman, shivering, trembling, falling on the ground, rolling. He was developing so many symptoms and he thought that, “Perhaps by repeating this mantra I am becoming mad.” He actually was thinking maybe He is becoming mad. So He approached his spiritual master to ask him, “What is happening? You told Me to chant the names of Krishna. I have been chanting the names of Krishna. Now I am manifesting different symptoms that suggest that I have gone mad.” And His spiritual master replied, “I am very pleased with You. These are symptoms of ecstatic love of Godhead. So You continue to chant the holy name and spread the holy name for the benefit of others.”

Srila Prabhupada comments that these symptoms are possible only on the liberated platform. These are not phenomena that are induced by personal effort. They come when by the grace of the Lord and the spiritual master, one comes to the liberated stage of bhāva-bhakti. Then these symptoms manifest. Srila Prabhupada was making the point that although Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu had come to the liberated stage of ecstatic love of Godhead, still He consulted His spiritual master. He never considered Himself to be independent.

So that is our position. We are always dependent on Krishna, on Krishna’s instructions, which come to us through disciplic succession. As long as we act in our dependent position, we are safe. As soon as we artificially try to become independent then we are in a very dangerous position. As we read yesterday about svairiṇīnāṁ, independent women, they are dangerous. They are in a dangerous position—dangerous for themselves and dangerous for others. But that applies to every living entity. As Lokanath Swami explained, every living entity is prakriti. Only the Lord is purusha. Therefore only He is male (enjoyer) and all the living entities are female, meant to be enjoyed by the Lord. So we are not independent by nature. When we act in our proper position as dependent on the Lord and His representatives we are safe. As soon as we want to imitate the Lord out of envy and try to act independently then we are in trouble.

But still, we always have our minute independence either to voluntarily surrender to the Lord or to be forced to surrender to maya. I like to tell the story of the young man who heard a talk by Srila Prabhupada in Seattle in 1968. The young man said that he didn’t feel that he had to bow down to anyone, that he should have to bow down to anyone. And Srila Prabhupada said, “Your nature is to bow down. You cannot avoid it.” So the real question is where you can be happy even by bowing down. He said, “You can voluntarily bow down to Krishna and Krishna’s representative or you’ll be forced to bow down to birth, disease, old age, and death, but you have to bow down. You are meant for bowing down. Your business is to bow down. So you can’t avoid it. The only question is where you can bow down and be happy. Even bowing down. And that is Krishna and Krishna’s representative, otherwise we’ll be forced to bow down to maya, to birth, disease, old age, and death.”

In the Bhagavad-gītā also Krishna says mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham that Krishna is asking people to surrender voluntarily—sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja—to voluntarily give Him the fruits of their activities—yat karoṣi—but if someone doesn’t voluntarily give it, He will come as death and forcibly take it away—mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. So we don’t have a choice whether to keep what we have or what we imagine is ours or not or give it. We don’t have a choice. Our choice, our minute independence is whether we want to give it to Krishna voluntarily or whether we’ll give it at the time of death involuntarily. If we give it to Krishna voluntarily we get the credit and if we try to hold on to it until the very end then death will take it all away anyway, but we won’t get any credit for it. Rather we will be punished for our unlawful possession of another person’s property, Krishna’s property.

So here Mohini-murti, She is giving the demons the choice first to give Her the pot of nectar or not, and they gave it to Her and now to accept willingly whatever She decides to do with the nectar. And they agree. They agree. Thus She in a way cheated them. But actually the Lord is absolute so His cheating is also beneficial. Because the Lord is absolute we cannot judge Him by our standards or insist that He conform to our standards of what should or should not be done.

Srila Prabhupada raised this question to me at the Ardha-kumbha-mela in 1971 because as preachers Prabhupada wanted us to know how to answer people’s questions. So he raised the question that we tell people that, “You should follow these regulative principles—no eating meat, fish, or eggs; no taking of intoxicants; no indulging in illicit sex life; and no gambling—but what if someone says to you, ‘You say we shouldn’t do these things, but you worship Gods who do the very same things that you say we shouldn’t do.’” And then he gave the example that Balarama gambled, played chess with Rukmi. Balarama also takes intoxicants, the Varuni beverage, and Krishna enjoys with the . . . like we heard yesterday, [mātuḥ priya-cikīrṣayā?]. [priya-cikīrṣayā?] means someone who belongs to someone else. So the girl, in her childhood, she is considered to belong to her father and in her married life she is considered to belong to her husband. So the Bhāgavatam says the same thing about Krishna that He enjoyed with women who belonged to others, either their fathers or their husbands, which is against dharma.

That’s a separate topic. Once one man raised this question with Srila Prabhupada in a challenging way that, “Krishna was dancing with other men’s wives, enjoying with other men’s wives. Isn’t He guilty of adultery?” Srila Prabhupada replied that, “Everything belongs to Krishna. Every living entity belongs to Krishna. Everything is His property. Your wife also belongs to Krishna so who’s engaged in adultery?” [laughter]

But still, externally He was dancing with other men’s wives or with the unmarried ladies who were supposed to be protected by their fathers. So how do we answer this that we worship Deities who engage in activities that They say we shouldn’t engage in? Eventually Srila Prabhupada gave the answer that the Lord is absolute. Whatever He does is all good. He gives the orders, He gives the laws for us, but He is above the law. Like Prabhupada would quote the British constitution, the king can do no wrong. The citizens, they have to follow the orders of the king, but the king himself can do no wrong. He is above the orders because he is the one who gives the orders. So dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītaṁ. Dharma is the orders of God. He gives orders for us to follow, but He Himself is above the orders. Sometimes He Himself will voluntarily follow to set the example. As He says in the Bhagavad-gītā: yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas, that whatever the leaders do, others follow. So He, to set the example, follows the rules and regulations, although He Himself is above them, but sometimes especially in Vrindavan He acts as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as the Supreme Personality of Godhead He is the supreme enjoyer, the supreme proprietor, the supreme controller. He acts as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and there’s no fault.

The same question is raised by Maharaja Parīkṣit especially in relation to Krishna’s activities with the gopīs that Krishna descended to establish dharma—dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya—yet He Himself is acting contrary to dharma or apparently so. Śukadeva Gosvami replied that actually the great controllers, they are not subject to the laws of ordinary people. The example is given that the son is so powerful it can evaporate urine from a dirty place, but the sun doesn’t become contaminated. So the īśvaras, the powerful controllers, they can engage in these activities, but they are not contaminated by them. And then Śukadeva Gosvami gives a very important instruction, then he says that one should follow the example of the great controllers only insofar as their example is in accordance with their instructions. But if there is a difference between what a powerful controller says in the instructions he gives and his actions, you should follow his instructions. You should not imitate his actions.

The example is given of Lord Shiva, he could drink an ocean of poison. It is also part of the same pastime of churning the ocean of milk. He drank the whole ocean of poison. He kept it in his throat. And we can’t do that. There are different forms of Lord Shiva, different expansions, but still if someone says, “Lord Shiva smokes ganja—or something—so I will also smoke.” “But can you drink an ocean of poison? First you drink an ocean of poison then you imitate Lord Shiva by smoking ganja.” “Well, Krishna danced, played with other men’s wives, so I will also do the same.” “But Krishna also lifted Govardhana Hill. Can you lift Govardhana Hill? First you lift Govardhana Hill then you think of other things.”

This is a very important principle, the Lord is independent—svārat—He can do as He pleases, but that doesn’t mean we can imitate Him and do whatever we like. If we try to do that we will go to hell. Śukadeva Gosvami says that if one thinks of enjoying with women like Krishna did with the gopīs, if one even has that thought, he is ruined. So we should accept our position as humble servants, dependent servants and then we are safe and secure. And we should be happy that Krishna is enjoying. Of course His enjoyment is completely pure and His mood is really to give pleasure to His devotees as their mood is to give pleasure to Him.

Although Krishna is independent (svārat), but in Vrindavan, out of love for his devotees, He becomes as if dependent. He accepts Nanda as His father and Yasoda as His mother and He acts as if He were dependent on them. Krishna is providing everything for everyone—nityo nityānāṁ cetanās cetanānām, eko bahunāṁ yo vidadhāti kāman—but still He becomes dependent on Mother Yasoda to feed Him. If she doesn’t feed Him, He is hungry. He becomes angry and frustrated. Srila Prabhupada would often give the example of Ravana, he kidnapped Sita. He wanted to enjoy Her, but actually she belonged to Rama. And because he wanted to enjoy the Lord’s property, he and his entire family and kingdom were vanquished. So Sita is Laksmi. Everyone is chasing after Laksmi, but Laksmi is the property of Lord Narayana. So if we worship Lord Narayana then automatically Laksmi will be there. But if we want to snatch Laksmi from Lord Narayana, we will be vanquished.

Srila Prabhupada said every materialistic person is chasing after Laksmi, but Laksmi is chasing after Lord Narayana. She is always by the side of Lord Narayana. But then Srila Prabhupada said, “Except in Vrindavan. In Vrindavan Lord Narayana as Krishna (of course Krishna is the origin) is chasing after Laksmi, Radharani.”

So He is independent but He becomes as if dependent on the love of His devotees. Prabhupada said the impersonalists, they want to become one with God, but devotees why should we want to become one with God. We can become mother of God or father of God, friend of God. Out of love the Lord comes under the control of the devotee or under the control of the love of devotees. So a devotee doesn’t . . . “What is this becoming one with God. I can become greater, be in a higher position,” not really because everyone is ultimately subordinate to the Lord, but the Lord will voluntarily come under the control of the pure devotee who has no other desire than to serve and please the Lord in pure love.” Hare Krishna.

Are there any questions or comments?

Rasikendra dasa: In this verse Mohini-murti is saying that, “Whether My actions are honest or dishonest, you will accept that.” She is already hinting to them that Her actions may be dishonest. But the demons went with Her proposal even though knowing that She may be dishonest in Her dealings. So why is that? Why did the demons go with the proposal?

Giriraj Swami: In the next verse and purport Srila Prabhupada says it appears that the demons were not very expert in making good decisions [laughter]. They were bewildered by Her charms and they accepted. It happens in the material world. People know something is wrong, but out of some attachment for another person they do things that are wrong. They get into trouble.

Rasikendra dasa: Their intelligence was lost.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, they are buddhi-nāśa, their intelligence was lost because of their lust.

Nityananda dasa: Also Maharaja has indicated earlier they were thinking that Mohini-murti was joking. She was speaking in a joking way so they were not separating what was the truth and not the truth. They were accepting what She wanted them to do not so much what She was saying. They were bewildered. It wasn’t sharp intelligence that was working.

Giriraj Swami: That’s right. What Nityananda Prabhu said is true that they, because She was sort of smiling all the time and She was so attractive, they were bewildered. They thought She was just joking that it was all sweet nothings [laughter]. “It doesn’t matter what she is saying.” [laughter]

Devotee: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: That’s a good word, abominable, because actually Maharaja Parīkṣit used the same word, jugupsitaṁ, abominable. The activities are abominable for us, but not for Krishna and not even for other powerful controllers.

Once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada that, “If these things are bad for us when we are conditioned, so then that means when we are liberated we can have sex as much as we want?” Srila Prabhupada told the story of a king, he would ride in a boat and he had a servant who would walk along the side, the shore, pulling the boat. It was just a pleasure for the king to go just along the shore. But along the side there were so many thorns and stones and things. So the king was so pleased with the service of his attendant that he told the attendant that, “I am pleased with you. I will give you whatever you want.” So then he asked, “I would like the path along the river to be covered with a velvet carpet.” So this is pretty stupid. He could have gotten his own kingdom, but he is just thinking in his terms that he has to pull the boat so if he has to keep pulling the boat then at least he should have a soft carpet under his feet.

Srila Prabhupada is making the point when you are liberated you can enjoy loving pastimes with Krishna. Those loving pastimes with Krishna are millions of times more pleasurable than the happiness of impersonal Brahman and the happiness of impersonal Brahman is millions of times greater than the happiness of the material world which from the point of view of the liberated soul is actually suffering. To think, Boy, if I become Krishna conscious, if I become liberated, I can enjoy with women, I can drink, I can take intoxicants, I can do whatever I want, you are not getting it what it means to be Krishna conscious. Yamunacarya said when he would think of his enjoyment with women, his lips would curl and in disgust he would spit at the thought. It was so disgusting. Those activities on the material plane are always abominable whether you are liberated or conditioned.

Nityananda dasa: But you can’t do that with the spiritual master. You can’t do that with these senior devotees who are giving shelter to the devotees. What is the difference? What makes it much worse now?

Giriraj Swami: I think what we’re talking about here—there are a couple of things—if one offends Krishna, one can take shelter of the holy name, but if one offends the holy name, he has no other shelter. There are ten offenses against the holy name and offending a devotee (sādhu-nindā) and guru-avajñā, those are very serious. Hati-matā. Lord Chaitanya describes vaiṣṇava-aparādha as a mad elephant that you can carefully cultivate a garden, but if a mad elephant enters, he’ll just cause havoc. He will just uproot everything and trample everything and destroy everything. So Krishna takes offenses to His devotees more seriously than He takes offenses to Himself. The example is given that someone is walking barefoot in the scorching heat. The heat on one’s head isn’t as painful as the heat under one’s feet. So that way Krishna, He takes offenses against His devotees more seriously. I am not sure if that answers your question.

Nityananda dasa: I am just thinking of course it is Krishna’s freewill to choose to take those offenses more seriously. I was thinking about the why? Why would Krishna take that offense more seriously? Is there another reason or is it just His sweet will? He has decided that, “If someone offends My devotees, you must watch out, because . . .”

Giriraj Swami: No, it is out of affection. A mother, if someone harms her small child that will affect her more than if someone harms her directly. It is a natural affection. Also the devotees are the ones who work on behalf of Krishna to give the holy name. That is what Bhaktivinoda Thakura says in Hari-nāma Cintāmaṇi that the devotees are the well-wishers who give the holy name. The holy name is Krishna in the most accessible form. By chanting the holy name we can realize Krishna. So, if we turn against the people who have given us the holy name, who are our best well-wishers, the holy name is offended, and we are cutting ourselves off from the source of mercy. It’s like they say don’t bite the hand that feeds you. The Vaishnavas are acting on behalf of Krishna to give people the holy name, give people the science of devotion, so if you turn against the very well-wishers who are trying to help you, then it is the worst offense. And because they are doing that work on behalf of Krishna, they are the dearmost servants of Krishna. So He becomes very upset when His dearest servants are mistreated.

Devotee: Yesterday Lokanath Swami was mentioning the alarming divorce rate that is always climbing and I was thinking there is a lot of divorce amongst devotees. Most devotees when you talk to them they say that divorce was necessary in their life. They were either in some arranged marriage or some situation that wasn’t right and they got divorced and found Mr. or Mrs. Right and they got remarried and lived happily ever after. So we wonder why there is so much criticism that divorce is . . . a lot of people feel that there is a need for divorce and that it worked for them. I wanted to ask about that.

Giriraj Swami: I was going to ask Maharaja the same question yesterday [laughter], but he didn’t have time to answer, because I knew it would come in people’s minds.

If I was going to phrase the question as I had it planned, I would have quoted different situations. One situation is the husband and wife, one is Krishna conscious and the other is not. Another situation is at the time of marriage both were Krishna conscious, but then one falls from the standard. And the third is both are Krishna conscious, but they don’t feel happy with each other.

Now the answer according to shastra is that . . . I was almost going to mention it in the class that gurur na sa syāt, pitā na sa syāj, that no one should become a guru, or a teacher, a father, a mother, a husband, or a superior relative unless he can deliver his dependent from the repetition of birth and death, which means, as Prabhupada explains in the purport, he or she should be a pure devotee. The definition of a pure devotee is someone who is always endeavoring to chant the holy name and engage in devotional service without offenses. If they are both Krishna conscious, but they feel they are not compatible, they are not both Krishna conscious, because if they really were both Krishna conscious, they would be compatible on the basis of being Krishna conscious. If they feel they are both Krishna conscious, but they are not compatible, it really means they are not Krishna conscious.

I just read it actually in one of Prabhupada’s books, again the Sixth Canto, they story of Ajamila. Ajamila had a very beautiful, chaste wife, but he got enamored of a prostitute. For the sake of the prostitute or for the sake of his sense gratification, he left his chaste, beautiful wife. He was a brahman and she was a brahman. This was after hearing the discussion between the Yamadutas and Vishnudutas and coming to his senses. And then he was lamenting how he had neglected his parents in their old age for the sake of the prostitute and he had left his chaste brahman wife for the sake of the prostitute. It means for the sake of sense gratification. Srila Prabhupada explains that people should marry in the same category like a brahman man should marry a brahman woman, a kshatriya man should marry a kshatriya woman, and so on, because marriages work better if both are on the same level.

That came up with Krishna and Rukmini, His first queen in Dvaraka. He was joking. When Krishna jokes there’s a lot of truth in His jokes. So He was joking with Rukmini that He wasn’t qualified to be her husband because she was the daughter of a king, she was highly qualified, and He was known as being a cowherd, which is on a lower level, but even then no one is quite sure what He is, if He is a kshatriya or a vaishya. So He is almost without any caste. So He was going through all the ways that she was more qualified than He was and in a joking way He suggested, “You should marry someone else. I am not fit to be your husband. You should marry someone else.”

So He was teasing her because she was always very docile and submissive like Gadadhara Pandita in caitanya-līlā. He wanted to tease her so she’d become angry. He wanted to see that angry side of her, but she was so docile and submissive and simple that she thought Krishna was serious. Then she just collapsed on the ground. She fainted. She just couldn’t bear the thought of being separated from Krishna.

But within the joking words there’s truth that the husband and wife should be on a similar standard—education, culture, family, heritage—and for devotees the main thing is Krishna consciousness. In the purport Srila Prabhupada says that if the husband and wife are both Krishna conscious that itself is sufficient. The other considerations are immaterial if the husband and wife are Krishna conscious.

So that’s the question how Krishna conscious are we. We have varnashrama-dharma. Varnashrama-dharma is the safety net where if you are not Krishna conscious, really Krishna conscious, you don’t fall all the way down to the bottom, but you get situated in varnashrama-dharma. Then from a secure position in varnashrama-dharma you can gradually become purified and become Krishna conscious. So in terms of varnashrama-dharma the husband and wife should be of a similar standard—all the things we discussed—so that if there’s a defect in their Krishna consciousness they can still be situated in varnashrama-dharma. Divorce is adharma so varnashrama-dharma means they are not Krishna conscious—to some extent, but not fully, not pure devotees. In other words not pure devotees—but because they have observed the principles of varnashrama-dharma, they can maintain a certain position and then gradually become purified and elevated.

There is a verse in the Bhāgavatam that says the chaste wife should faithfully serve her husband who is not fallen. So it is a regulation that the wife should serve the husband, but the verse in the Bhāgavatam says—this is the Seventh Canto about ideal family life—that the chaste wife should faithfully serve her husband who is not fallen. In the purport Srila Prabhupada explains that if the husband isn’t following the basic principles of Krishna consciousness, the wife is not obliged to serve him. But other than that the shastra says she should. The fact that he’s temperamental or something like that doesn’t excuse her from her obligation to serve him as long as he is not fallen. At then of course we are in that grey area that he may have fallen, but just hoping he’ll come back to a standard, to give him time. That’s the basic principle. I just wanted to add that to the previous answer.

Rasaraja dasa: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: For householders Srila Prabhupada said financially independent and spiritually dependent. The context of this statement was in the history of ISKCON there was a time when the householders were living in the temples and were dependent on the temple, but it became an awkward situation. Srila Prabhupada said basically the householders should maintain themselves, but they should still live near the temple so that they could be in the association of devotees. That’s when he said financially independent but spiritually dependent. He said he could live away from the devotees, Bhaktivinoda Thakura could live any from the devotees, because they were very strong, but if neophytes live away from the devotees, as he said they will become infected by the karmis’ poison so they should live near the devotees, but maintain themselves. So, then he said financially independent, but spiritually dependent.

As far as how to get direction in the absence of the spiritual master, that’s been a topic that we have been discussing, sadhu, shastra, and guru, but there are the instructions that the spiritual master gave. “He lives forever by his divine instructions and the follower lives with him.” So the instructions that he gave continue. And then the books, the books he has left us or Srila Prabhupada’s books, because in ISKCON the spiritual masters are all representing Srila Prabhupada, get guidance from the books, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, brilliant as the sun. And sadhus, śikṣā-gurus, they can also guide us. There was one quotation by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura that, “My spiritual master resides in different personalities and those who are dear to my Gurudeva, they are my well-wishers”—something to that effect.

Like Prabhupada said, anyone who is teaching you purely what your spiritual master has taught you, he can be accepted as a Prabhu, as a teacher, sadhu. It really depends on the sincerity of the person. If he wants guidance, his guru will arrange for him to get the guidance he needs, but if he is actually looking for an excuse to be independent, “Now my Guru Maharaja is gone. Now there is no guidance for me. I’ll just have to make up my own decisions,” if he is looking for an excuse, that’s okay. That’s his choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru. That’s his choice, but if he is choosing to be independent, he has to live with the consequences of it. But if he genuinely wants guidance from the guru, the guru will arrange it.

Devotee: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: This is a very good point. There are different categories of śikṣā-gurus, different relationships one can have with a śikṣā-guru. There are general śikṣā-gurus. Every devotee is a śikṣā-guru in that they are repeating the message of Krishna and you can get good instruction from them. But then among so many devotees, there may be a few whose instructions you take more seriously. So they are also śikṣā-gurus, but they are more particular guides for you. And then it could come to the stage where there is one—it wouldn’t even have to be limited to one—but where you feel you really want to inquire of this person and take instruction from this person, serve this person. And then it is just like with the original spiritual master, it’s a question of both parties agreeing. Sometimes it is like that and sometimes it might not be like that just as in the case of the original spiritual master.

But say in the case of Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, after Chaitanya Mahaprabhu left, he took shelter of Rupa and Sanatana, especially Rupa Gosvami. Rupa and Sanatana, they accepted him like their younger brother. So it was reciprocal. That has to be there. There is even snigdhe, sādhau saṅgaḥ svato vare that those are all there. Sadhu-saṅga, the definition of sadhu-saṅga is to associate with someone who is more advanced and who has a similar affection for the Lord, similar mood of service, and who is also affectionate to you. Someone may be advanced, more advanced than you—there may be many devotees who are more advanced than you—but there has to be that affectionate relationship for sadhu-saṅga in that particular way to be effective. But in general you hear from advanced devotees, you hear, you learn, you try to follow the instructions, but beyond that there is no commitment of the speaker. No responsibility.

Devotee: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: This is a good question. You are saying the husband and wife get married before either is Krishna conscious. Then one becomes Krishna conscious and the other doesn’t.

Within that general case there’s two possibilities in broad terms. One is, let us say the husband is not Krishna conscious. The husband lets his wife practice, he just doesn’t want to himself. It is that way in any relationship that one party will be into something that the other party is not into. Say they both are nondevotees. The husband might be into football, but the wife might not be. She doesn’t mind if he wants to go to the football game with some of his buddies or sit and watch the Super Bowl and drink beer with his buddies. But that’s not her thing. She is not part of it, but she lets him do it. So it could be like that.

Another case is that the husband is actually inimical, but even then why should he be inimical. It usually means there is something going on that he feels insecure or threatened or has some misconception.

Divorce should be avoided at all costs because it is really bad for both the husband and wife and it is terrible for the children. Both boys and girls need both parents. It is just the way it is. They both need a father. Both a boy and a girl need a father and both a boy and a girl need a mother. Any sort of divorce is going to bring heartbreak both to the spouses and to the children, but the children are more helpless and vulnerable. They can’t really deal with it in the same ways that the adults can deal with the heartbreak and trauma. I would think they should work on it, finding a solution that doesn’t involve divorce.

Devotee: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: These are actually very good questions. As I mentioned there is varnashrama-dharma and then there is spiritual life, Krishna consciousness. Someone can be in varnashrama-dharma and still be a demon. One of the reasons that the Pandavas didn’t want to fight with the Kauravas is because even though they were against Krishna, but they were still ruling properly according to varnashrama-dharma. So we shouldn’t confuse Vedic culture or varnashrama-dharma with Krishna consciousness.

I was friends with the Maharana of Udaipur. We read on Wednesday night about when Srila Gurudeva discovered the Deity of Krishna in the sands of Juhu Beach and took up the worship and then the Maharana’s niece, she wanted to take up the service of getting a Radharani made to go with the Krishna.

So once I visited the Maharana with another devotee and the Maharani was saying how his brother was a demon. The other devotee who was with me was saying, “No, no, I don’t think that is true because I met him and he received me very nicely. He invited me in. He gave me water to drink. He gave me some fruit. I don’t think that’s true.” And the Maharana replied, “Oh that’s just culture. He is still a demon,” [laughter] because he was inimical to Krishna and Krishna consciousness. This is just normal culture—you receive someone, you speak nicely, you give him a place to sit, you give him something to drink, you give him some fruit—that’s just culture.

Dhṛtaraṣṭra was a demon because he opposed Krishna, but it doesn’t mean he wasn’t a cultured person in terms of varnashrama-dharma. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t a proper husband. Even Ravana, he was considered a great brahman. He was a very learned scholar. He had many good qualities in Vedic terms and he was a great devotee of Lord Shiva, but his defect was that he was envious of Rama.

In that context of Vedic culture, the wife, it is her duty to serve her husband. Like you said Gandhari and Mandodari, they are considered among the great chaste ladies of the world. The fact that the Bhāgavatam says that it is the duty of the chaste wife to faithfully serve her husband who is not fallen doesn’t mean that as soon as the wife sees, “Oh, he is fallen. He ate with his left hand. He is fallen! [laughter] I don’t have to serve him. I am going shopping,” [laughter] it doesn’t mean that one goes for separation or divorce, but because there are such strong injunctions for the wife to serve the husband, it is mentioned in the Bhāgavatam if the husband is not fallen. But it doesn’t mean that there is divorce or remarriage in the Vedic culture.

We had a very temperamental man in Bombay, Nara-narayana. I guess it is no secret, very temperamental person, and he had a wife named Dinadayadri who was considered very saintly. He would lose his temper and beat her. It was really a bad situation. This was more than thirty-five years ago when Prabhupada was present. It was a different situation. Prabhupada said it was just her bad luck in this life, but she should tolerate it. But everyone, their sentiments were really for her. She appeared to be so saintly. Eventually she left him. She went to the Detroit temple and she was trying for a while to follow everything, but she couldn’t. Either she wasn’t strong enough or maybe she suffered because she disobeyed Prabhupada’s . . . it was a special case, it was a direct instruction. In the end she married a karmi and this lady who was so saintly ended up in a pretty miserable condition. I don’t know where she is now.

Different devotees have made the same comment. His Holiness Kesava Bharati dasa Goswami Maharaja also made the same comment that if—again I am speaking more to the wife because of the injunction that she should follow the husband, but it is either way—but if you are having a difficult time with your husband . . . this case where Kesava Bharati Maharaja gave the instruction neither had any knowledge of Krishna consciousness when they got married. They already had two grown children. The wife became Krishna conscious and the husband didn’t and he felt very threatened. I think he was just ignorant and prejudiced. Kesava Bharati Maharaja said, “You should take it as practice for surrendering to Krishna that you have to accept some difficulty. Take it as practice for surrendering to Krishna. You could even take it as surrender to Krishna to tolerate the difficulty,” but of course then we get into this ambiguous area of how much you should tolerate and how much you can tolerate.

Prabhupada also said in Kali-yuga we can’t expect the women to conform to that role model exactly or the men. He did say there needs to be more give and take in the relationship than you might get the sense just from reading the Bhāgavatam.

Nityananda dasa: It is very difficult in a marriage situation for a couple. It is just what it is. It is very difficult. That’s why the [?] in the holy name is so much more important.

Giriraj Swami: Again I was thinking of saying it and I didn’t say it and then you more or less said the same thing. When there was some controversy in Mayapur, that was between grihasthas and sannyasis pointing the finger, Prabhupada said that in Kali-yuga everyone has faults. He said in Kali-yuga no one can follow perfectly. You have faults. I have faults. Everyone has faults. But if we simply spend our time pointing out the faults of the others then our whole spiritual life will be lost. And then with reference to that point that in Kali-yuga no one can follow perfectly, he said therefore Chaitanya Mahaprabhu gave the holy name. That can save us—anyone and everyone.

Hladini-sakti dasa: I don’t know how relevant it may be but it occurs to me that Prabhupada also used to use the Bengali proverb to the effect that when you go to Benares, your forehead goes to Benares.

Giriraj Swami: Very profound statement. Hladini-sakti Prabhu said that we may be placed in a particular situation for our own purification because we are meant to learn something. And if we try to escape the situation without having learned what we’re meant to have learned from it, then we just end up in another situation that’s meant to teach us the same thing that we try to run away from.

And I am seeing it. There was one case in South Africa, the man was a Prabhupada disciple, good devotee, and he married some British lady. He was American. She wasn’t that submissive. She wasn’t maybe even that serious in Krishna consciousness and in those days it was really a big thing to get divorced. In ISKCON you just didn’t get divorced. I think she just left him and went back to England and they got divorced. But he still felt the need to be married.

Everyone rallied together, “We can’t let this happen again.” So they chose a girl who was a gurukula teacher of Indian origin. Very submissive, docile, just hardly ever spoke. They said, “Okay, this is not going to happen again. We got to really make this work.” So they got married and I don’t know how long it took, but another feature of that submissive, docile, quiet, gurukula teacher came out, and she was just like the other one [laughter] She was just like the other one. And it was really rocky, stormy, and tempestuous. But they didn’t divorce and I think the reason he didn’t divorce her is that he realized that it was the same situation as the last time and that if he tried to take the easy way out and get divorced and marry again, the same thing could happen a third time except it would be a complete disgrace and humiliation.

So they stuck it out. I don’t know internally, but I am sure with age and maturity they did stick it out. They had a child. They stayed together. Maybe they even had two, but they stayed together. I think that’s true, tat te ’nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo, that we should take whatever has happened to us as the Lord’s mercy and take the situation as an occasion to surrender more to the Lord. Beautiful point.

Bhaktin Stella: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: Yes. Any woman who has any questions just ask Bhaktin Stella and she will . . . [laughter]

Bhaktin Stella: In our family everyone thinks that we are frank, fully formed, but we entered this marriage without being Krishna conscious.

Bhakta Carl: What a demon husband! [laughter]

Giriraj Swami: Before things get too out of hand here. You are in the men’s corner. You are in the women’s corner . . . [laughter] You pray for me. Your prayers are really powerful. I hope you’ll pray for me.

Bhaktin Stella: It is already there.

Giriraj Swami: I don’t know the details but it sounds comparable. The lady was very religious, very devout from her childhood. I think she was Catholic. She always wanted a husband who would be a partner with her in her spiritual pursuit. And then after so many years she fell in love with someone and it turns out he didn’t believe in God. And she thought, God, why did You do this? I just wanted to serve You and love You and I wanted a husband that would be with me. Why did you make me fall in love with someone who doesn’t even believe in You? I don’t know how it happened but pretty soon after—I don’t even know if it was simultaneous—but they both became Krishna conscious, they both became devotees.

I think that is very good about not being on an ego trip and trying to force something on someone. That applies between spouses; it applies to children; parents and children as well. If you give them the time and space and freedom, they may come to it on their own. And prayer. But if you try to enforce it on them, they might rebel against it. I have seen it. One mother, she is very heavy type of person, she had two daughters. She raised them nicely. They seemed very nice. When I went back to Bombay I met her and the two daughters. You don’t really know, but the daughters seemed pretty nice. I’ve known them since they were little. But the mother was just so heavy. So they would pull away more as a reaction to the mother than because they wanted to be away from Krishna consciousness. It was just so apparent. It wasn’t the Krishna consciousness that they were withdrawing from, but they were withdrawing from the mother’s heaviness and insistence.

There could be so many variations, but once Sesa Prabhu and his wife came with visit us in Santa Barbara. Their two daughters are really nice devotees. We asked them, “How did you do it?” And they said they never instructed their daughters to do anything. They would have their own morning program. They would do what they wanted to do as devotees. They would have their own morning program. They’d invite sadhus. They’d invite other devotees. They would have programs. They would go to the temple. But they never directly instructed the daughters to do anything. They let the daughters do whatever they wanted. Of course there is a very strong relationship between husband and wife and between the parents and the children. So in that context the daughters themselves would join in the activities, join in serving the guests. They became devotees.

We had coincidentally at our place in Santa Barbara, Carpinteria, this very nice couple, Nanda-kisora and Kandarpa-manjari from South Africa. They were so sweet, so sweet devotees. So we asked them from their point of view how did they choose to be devotees. Both parents—they are young, in their early twenties—but the parents of both were devotees, initiated devotees. So we asked them from their point of view how they ended up becoming devotees and they both said that they appreciated the fact that their parents didn’t try to force them. I don’t know about the girl’s side so much. I know the boy’s side. Same thing, relationship between the husband and wife is good, between the parents and children is strong, and they are good devotees. But they both said that they appreciated not having it forced on them or thrust upon them, that they were allowed to make their own decision.

Bhaktin Stella: I think the most important thing is to love the person, to show your love. Just love them. [?] love is there. Just love them unconditionally. Then they see in principle [?] the religion in their own experience of that love.

Giriraj Swami: Would you become my mother? [laughter]

What she said is true. It reaches such a deep place in everyone’s heart. It is absolutely true.

Devotee: Hare Krishna Maharaja. It is a question of dependence on Krishna. Maharaja, generally we seek the guidance of our authorities or our spiritual master only when some major problem occurs in our life or major issue arises, but there are decisions we have to make on a day to day basis. And then there are cases when you seek the advice of the authorities that you [?]. They tell you the general principle and leave the rest on your intelligence. So my question is as long as you have to make even a single decision yourself, how can you hope to be fully dependent on Krishna?

Giriraj Swami: That’s a good question. The guidance can come directly from the spiritual master or the authority, but again if you are sincere you can get the answer even if they don’t give you the answer. There’s this one case of mine where after I had been preaching in India for a while I met Prabhupada in Mayapur and he said that, “During the British rule they had three provinces: Bombay, Calcutta, and Madras. So which do you want?” So I said, “Well Srila Prabhupada, I’ll do whatever you tell me. Just tell me what you want me to do and I’ll do it.” He said, “No, I want you to decide.” Later I realized that he was forcing me to come to a deeper level of surrender to know what he would want me to do without him telling me.

We hear there are three levels of students or sons or daughters or disciples. On the lowest level the disciple will get an instruction and argue or begrudge it or forget. On the middle level the disciple will get an instruction and execute it perfectly. And on the highest level the disciple will know what the spiritual master wants even without the spiritual master telling him.

Now most of us begin on the third level. So our constant meditation should be, “What does the spiritual master want me to do,” at every moment. I remember I went through a phase where I was thinking like that, What does Krishna want? I would be taking prasāda and at a certain stage I would think, Okay, does Krishna want me to have more, and sometimes I sort of knew He didn’t want me to have more [laughter], but I would still try to sneak in an extra mouthful or two. But afterwards I felt bad. It wasn’t just that I had an extra mouthful or two, but it was a breach in my relationship with Krishna that I felt He wanted me to stop, that it would be better for my Krishna consciousness if I stopped, but I didn’t. So that should be our meditation.

There is another way of looking at it which educators talk about. This is four levels. One is unconscious incompetence. You are incompetent but you don’t know it. Many devotees chant inattentively. They don’t even know they are chanting inattentively. They don’t even know what attentive chanting is. Then the next level is conscious incompetence. You know you are incompetent, but at least you are aware of it. Then the next level is conscious competence. You know you have this problem, but you are working on it and you are able to get it right, but you always have to be very careful to get it right. That’s like the clearing stage, more the stage of clearing where you make an effort to bring your mind unto the holy name. And then the highest is unconscious competence. In other words your competence becomes so natural to you that you don’t even have to think about it. When you come to the stage of āsakti. . . now if our mind wanders, we don’t even know when it started to wander or how it started to wander. And so many beads go, maybe even so many malas go, then we realize, “Oh my God, I didn’t hear one word. My mind was somewhere else.” But in this more advanced stage your mind naturally goes to Krishna. You don’t know how it got there, but it is there and it stays there.

Or walking. A baby will try to stand up, fall down. Try to take a step or two, fall down. But then by practice . . . so then they are careful. Just like riding a bicycle, a two-wheeler. You are careful. You have to be careful so you don’t lose your balance. Just like conscious competence. But then it becomes natural. You don’t even think about it.

So if you don’t ask an authority, again it shouldn’t be an excuse for doing what you want to do, but you should try to make the decision without bothering the authority either by consulting others or by chanting, praying—whatever it is. It should never be an excuse for laziness or negligence. The main thing is if you are sincere, that you really want the guidance, you’ll get it.

Bhakta Rohit: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: Some of the activities are in the spiritual world. Not everything that’s in the material world exists in the spiritual world, but the feeling that they exist is there. Like in the spiritual world there are no demons, but there is a rasa in being afraid for Krishna’s welfare on account of demons. They say there is talk in the spiritual world that there are demons that, “The demons are coming. We have to protect Krishna.”

Similarly there are no real husbands of the gopīs, but there is the sentiment that they are married. It is a little difficult but there is a shadow of husbands. As far as gambling I suppose they play chess at Dvaraka. Part of Radha and Krishna’s midday pastimes at Radha-kunda sometimes Radha and Krishna play dice. As far as taking intoxicants the Varuni beverage is there in the spiritual world. I don’t know about meat eating. I never came across that one.

Nityananda dasa: We become inebriated when we take intoxication.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. The real thing is that none of the words whether Sanskrit or English are the same in the material world as in the spiritual world. So the real thing is that everything in the spiritual world is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. It is all based on love. So yes, they play dice, but it is all based on love. It is all līlā. It is all play. It is not like one person wins and the other person loses. Everyone wins because it is all love. Everything is for the pleasure of everyone else.

He says that during the one year that Brahma stole all the cowherd boys and calves when Krishna was having His picnic lunch, so Paurnamasi announced that, “This is a very good time for marriages.” She got all the young girls to marry cowherd boys, but actually the cowherd boys were all Krishna. So they actually weren’t marrying the other cowherd boys. They were all marrying Krishna.

Devotee: Devotees in the Gainesville temple.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. The competition was whether the Gainesville devotees could cook more prasāda than the Radha-Damodara party could eat. [laughter] Each side was interpreting it in such a way that they had defeated the other, but actually in that one everyone lost because they all overate. [laughter]

Devotee: It got to the point of not counting pakoras the person ate, but how many pakoras they could eat and stuffing them up at one time. [laughter]

Devotee: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: I assume you are talking about grihasthas because Lokanath Swami is happy, Indradyumna Swami is happy, Radhanath Swami is happy. You are talking about grihasthas?

Devotee: [inaudible]

Giriraj Swami: I thought of two things here and coincidentally they are both from His Holiness Bhakti Tirtha Swami maybe because it is also his disappearance day coming up. One of his female disciples had heard—he didn’t tell her directly—but she heard that he wanted all of his female disciples to be married. It was troubling her because I think she didn’t want to get married. So finally she approached him directly and asked him. He said, “If you don’t get married you will suffer and if you get married you will suffer [laughter]. The only question is whether you want to suffer alone or with someone else [laughter].”

Then the other thing he said was with reference to the idea that if you are making progress . . . I think what you are thinking is if you make progress then at a certain stage you don’t struggle, but I don’t think that’s the case. You always struggle, but your internal happiness increases, but you still struggle. Even preachers, they struggle till the end. Prabhupada struggled to the end. What Bhakti Tirtha Swami said about that was that as you make advancement it becomes more difficult, but it is not harder. In other words the challenges are more difficult—this is how I am taking it—but it is not harder for you to deal with them, because you are better equipped to deal with them, because you are more mature, you are more purified, you have more resources, more knowledge, more support.

But there are always tests. In fact in one class he gave years ago in Juhu actually, he was saying Krishna always gives us tests and when we pass one test then we go on to the next test and that’s how we make advancement. And we keep making advancement until the final test which is the time of death. So there will always be tests, but when we pass the test we make advancement. There will always be struggles, but internally the devotee is relishing. At least in the line of preachers, preachers are always struggling to give Krishna to others. In one talk Srila Prabhupada gave in Gorakhpur he was saying that as long as you are preaching there is going to the opposition. There is going to be difficulty. There is going to be struggle. But in the course of it, Krishna is pleased. If Krishna is pleased our lives are successful. We take pleasure in Krishna’s happiness even though externally there is difficulty.

I also was like that. I thought, it is a subtle form of fruitive mentality, I’ll work hard and then things will get established. Then I’ll take it easy. Then at a certain stage I just realized it is never going to stop. There’s always going to be weeds. Externally no question, but even internally within ISKCON, within the hearts of devotees there’s always going to be weeds. We always have to be vigilant. We always have to isolate the weeds. We have to pull them out. It is never going to end.

That’s our service. At one stage Bhakti Svarupa Damodara Maharaja was feeling discouraged because there were so many problems and he asked Srila Prabhupada, “How do you keep up your enthusiasm all the time when there are so many problems?” And Prabhupada said, “I don’t see any problems. I just see service to my spiritual master.” So there is a weed there. We have to pull it out. So we see it as a problem, “Why do I have to deal with that ugly weed? Why do I have to get my hands dirty?” But as a servant, it is just service, pulling out the weed it is service to the master. Picking the rose flower and offering it to the Deities’ lotus feet is service to the spiritual master. It is just service. It is varieties of service.

Nityananda dasa: We all have challenges, difficulties but you are happy because of Krishna consciousness.

Giriraj Swami: I mentioned those because I knew that he knew them. Maybe you need to invite more happy householders [laughter] so people can see it is possible. Carl and Stella are happy. I am sure there are many.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!
Nitai-gaura-premānande Hari Haribol!