Japa Retreat—Day 04—Chanting with an Open Heart Giriraj Swami

Giriraj Swami: So, in the mood of being upfront, as I heard the expression come from you in the morning session, Hare Krishna!

Devotees: Hare Krishna.

Giriraj Swami: Given some of the topics that came up earlier, I’m going to weave some responses to those questions in my presentation. So, it might not appear on the surface to be all about chanting with an open heart, but ultimately, it comes to chanting with an open heart. So, I’m going to discuss, in general, the conditions that lead the heart to become closed or hardened, and the conditions that lead the heart to be open or soft.

In the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Srila Rupa Gosvami enumerates sixty-four items of devotional service, and at the end of the list and discussion of the items, he raises some items that some people might think should have been included in the list, but which he excluded. And one of the items is the cultivation of knowledge and renunciation, and he explains why he excluded them.

He quotes a verse that says that in the beginning, the cultivation of knowledge and renunciation may be somewhat helpful in some cases. For example, we should know we’re not the body. We should have that much knowledge, that we’re not the body. And we might have to make an effort to give up certain types of sinful activities that are obviously obstacles to devotional service. But he says that the cultivation of impersonal knowledge, or speculative knowledge that leads to an impersonal conclusion, and the practice of artificial austerities, or renunciation make the heart hard.

And the nature of bhakti is to make the heart soft. And the real process of bhakti, as he says, is hearing and chanting about Krishna. And then, that process makes the heart soft. And from that, automatically, knowledge and detachment follow, but they’re not practiced separately.

And in the discussion of what makes one eligible for devotional service, that’s a very good question. So, he quotes another verse from the Eleventh Canto, which says that one who awakens faith or attraction to the messages of Krishna, and who is neither too attached or too disgusted with material life, he can take to devotional service. So, this line, na nirviṇṇo nāti-sakto, not overly attached but not too disgusted, is very significant. He says that if one is too attached to material life, one will tend to go for karma or karma-yoga. And if one is too disgusted, one will tend to go for jnana or jnana-yoga. But one who’s not too attached or too disgusted, he can take to bhakti-yoga. So, we want to keep our heart in that condition of just hearing and chanting and being detached, but not averse.

So then, Rupa Gosvami raises the question, “Well, if the cultivation of renunciation is not an item of devotional service, then does it mean that the cultivation of material enjoyment is?”

So, he says, “Obviously not,” and he quotes a verse from shastra, “By seeking to gratify one’s senses, one cannot attain Krishna, as much as one running to the West cannot end up in the East.” So then, what is the resolution of this paradox, that the cultivation of renunciation is not an item of devotional service, but the pursuit of material enjoyment is against devotional service? And then, he has placed these two very important verses about phalgu-vairāgya; yukta-vairāgya.

Well, we’ll start with phalgu-vairāgya. Phalgu is a river in Bihar that appears to be dry, sand, but underneath, there’s a whole river flowing, very strong current. And so, phalgu-vairāgya means that one rejects material things, considering them to be material. I guess you could say false renunciation or artificial renunciation. And in yukta-vairāgya, one sees everything as Krishna’s energy, which is meant to be used in Krishna’s service and without attachment, anāsaktasya viṣayān, without attachment to the objects of the senses. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe, one sees the relationship of things to Krishna and accepts them in the spirit of service to Krishna. Yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate, that is befitting, or appropriate renunciation.

So, when we chant or engage in devotional service, in general, we will become aware of various attachments. And certainly, material attachments are impediments to our attentive japa and to our relationship with Krishna. But the attachment may arise in relation to things that can be used in Krishna’s service, which are not necessarily meant to be rejected. And if we try to reject something that’s meant to be used in Krishna’s service, that could also create an impediment. It’s like attachment and aversion, there being two sides of the same coin.

So, a very good example of this issue comes in Queen Kunti’s prayers to Lord Krishna when He was about to leave Hastinapura for Dvaraka. And she prays to Him, “O Lord of the Universe, Soul of the Universe, please sever my ties of affection for my kinsmen, the Yadus and the Vrishnis and the Pandavas.” And in the following verse, she prays, “O Lord of Madhu, please let my affection run towards You without being diverted to anyone else, just like the Ganges flows to the ocean.” It’s a beautiful prayer, it’s a prayer that we should all have.

But Srila Prabhupada raises the question that Kunti’s family members, on both sides, were devotees. And affection for devotees is not outside of the range of devotional service. Her brother was Vasudeva, the father of Krishna in Mathura, and her sons were the Pandavas. So, they’re all pure devotees. So, why does she pray for the tie of affection to her kinsmen to be severed? And Srila Prabhupada replies that what she’s praying for is that the affection that is based on the body be severed. And then, he says that the relation of one soul with another soul through the medium of the Supersoul is not rejected.

I remember in Boston. . . So, when I joined, there were hardly any married couples in ISKCON. And two of the devotees got married, and the lady wasn’t sure what her relationship with her husband was supposed to be like. Do they just do everything like they did when they were brahmachari and brahmacharini except they’re married? She asked, “Do I have a relationship with my husband?” And Prabhupada replied, “Yes, just like the right hand has a relationship with the left hand, but it’s through the body, through the stomach. So, in the same way, you do have a relationship with your husband, but it’s through Krishna, with Krishna as the center.”

And that’s what Prabhupada writes in the purport here, that the relation of one soul to another soul, not based on the body but based on soul to soul with the Supersoul as the center or the goal, is not to be rejected.

So, we probably find that, practically, we have relationships with people and material objects that, in principle, could be spiritual, but because of our conditioning, we have the habit of thinking of it in terms of exploitation and sense gratification. So then, that becomes disturbing. So, do we reject it? I mean, in some cases, maybe. Or do we try to purify our relationship with it? And in many cases, certainly, I would say in a marital relationship, we should rather try to purify it. Or whatever it is. I mean, it’s just our conditioning, that as soon as we see some material object, we think of exploiting it or enjoying it or calculating whether it’ll be favorable for my enjoyment or not.

Just like all of us, I might dare to say, our relationship with each other is much more spiritual now, it’s closer and more spiritual now than it was when we first arrived here before the evening session began. Our feelings for each other, what we see as the purpose of our relationship, the things we talk about when we get together have changed. It’s become purified. Krishna is the center, and that should be our goal with anything and everything. And as far as possible, we should carry this with us. Of course, here the atmosphere is very supportive, but still, we should try to carry it with us, as far as possible.

Now, another point that came up in the morning, Badahari dasa Prabhu, more or less, asked on behalf of all of us, because we all experience it, okay, we’ve come to this stage, we understand, at least in principle who we are, who Krishna is, what our relationship with Him is, what the goal of life is, what the process to achieve the goal is, what we should and should not do, but sometimes we fail, we fall down in our effort. And so, how do we deal with that?

Nirendra Svarupa Prabhu already addressed that question. And what I’m going to read, more or less, is the same thing but just in different words. But I love these verses and purports so much, I wanted to read it. I didn’t want to bring this demon into the assembly of the demigods. [laughter]

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:18:31]

Giriraj Swami: Sorry?

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:18:35]

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, yeah. Where I come from, that’s true. Yeah, it’s better to be a beggar in the street than to own a pc, in some people’s minds.

This is from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Canto Eleven, Chapter Twenty, Text Twenty-seven and Twenty-eight. And the words are very similar. It’s from the same section to the verse that Rupa Gosvami quotes about what makes one eligible for devotional service. Sraddha, ādau śraddhā. And na nirviṇṇo nāti-sakto, not being too attached or too disgusted. And this one, I’ll just read the translation. This is Lord Krishna speaking to Uddhava.

TEXT 27–28

Having awakened faith in the narrations of My glories, being disgusted with all material activities, knowing that all sense gratification leads to misery, but still being unable to renounce all sense enjoyment, My devotee should remain happy. . .

COMMENT

This is a very important point.

TRANSLATION

My devotee should remain happy and worship Me with great faith and conviction.

COMMENT

In other words, don’t give up, keep going.

TRANSLATION

Even though he is sometimes engaged in sense enjoyment, My devotee knows that all sense gratification leads to a miserable result, and he sincerely repents such activities.

COMMENT

This is another important item; repentance, regret, remorse.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

The beginning stage of pure devotional service is described here by the Lord.

COMMENT

This is pure devotional service. What makes it pure devotional service is that the devotee engages exclusively in devotional service. In spite of failing in his attempts, he does not give up his efforts in devotional service in favor of some other process, which we could call karma, or jnana, or yoga, which could be translated in many contemporary varieties. But the basic idea is he doesn’t give up the process. He doesn’t adulterate the process by mixing other processes, thinking, I’m not making it, I need some support from some other process. No, he sticks to the basic process of devotional service, and that is pure devotional service. Even though one may be a neophyte, but it’s pure devotional service if one is surrendered to the process of devotional service and doesn’t mix it with other processes, or take it as a part-time activity.

I might just mention about my delivery, that I’m sort of slow. So, it takes me time to get things. So, I know the way I speak is sort of slow and I might repeat myself. It’s not like I’m talking down to you or anything, but it’s just the way I am. Sometimes I need things to go slowly and to be repeated, but it’s not like I think you’re children or something, that I have to. . .

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:23:22]

Giriraj Swami: Sorry?

Devotee: We need repetition to give us our spiritual gain, it’s good.

Giriraj Swami: Thank you. [laughter]

Devotee: Well said.

Giriraj Swami: Alright. [laughter]

PURPORT (continued)

A sincere devotee has practically seen that all material activities lead only to sense gratification and all sense gratification leads only to misery. Thus a devotee’s sincere desire is to engage twenty-four hours a day in the loving service of Lord Kṛṣṇa without any personal motivation.

COMMENT

That’s the ideal. That’s the ideal that we’re all striving for.

PURPORT (continued)

The devotee sincerely desires to be established in his constitutional position as the Lord’s eternal servitor, and he prays to the Lord to elevate him to this exalted position. The word anīśvara indicates that because of one’s past sinful activities and bad habits one may not immediately be able to completely extinguish the enjoying spirit. The Lord here encourages such a devotee not to be overly depressed or morose but to remain enthusiastic and to go on with his loving service. The word nirviṇṇa indicates that a sincere devotee, although somewhat entangled in the remnants of sense gratification, is completely disgusted with material life and under no circumstances willingly commits sinful activities.

COMMENT

Now, he’s trying to walk, but because of weakness, he might fall down. But he doesn’t entertain the idea that it’s fun to fall down and lie on the floor, but it happens, but he continues. He’s still enthusiastic, he picks himself up and tries to walk again.

PURPORT (continued)

The word nirviṇṇa indicates that a sincere devotee, although somewhat entangled in the remnants of sense gratification, is completely disgusted with material life and under no circumstances willingly commits sinful activities. In fact, he avoids every kind of materialistic activity. The word kāmān basically refers to sex attraction and its by-products in the form of children, home and so forth. A pure devotee certainly feels spiritual affection for all living entities, including the so-called wife and children, but he knows that material bodily attraction leads to no good, for it simply entangles one and one’s so-called relatives in a miserable chain reaction of fruitive activities.

COMMENT

So, although he feels affection for his family members, but he doesn’t engage them in material activities, which will lead to sense gratification, because that’s a disservice to himself and to them. It doesn’t really do anyone any good.

Now, there are specific questions that arise. Because sometimes the husband might be lagging behind, and the wife might be more ahead, or vice versa. So then, there’s a question of how to deal with that. Or you want the children to be devotees, but when they come to a certain age, they might experiment and try different things. There are different questions that arise from this. But within himself, the devotee is convinced that material activities lead to sense gratification, and sense gratification leads to misery. He doesn’t willingly, for his own sense enjoyment or out of his own illusions about material life, engage them in material activities or sense gratification.

PURPORT (continued)

The word dṛḍha-niścaya (“steadfast conviction”) indicates that in any circumstance a devotee is completely determined to go on with his prescribed duties for Kṛṣṇa. Thus he thinks, “By my previous shameful life my heart is polluted with many illusory attachments. Personally I have no power to stop them. Only Lord Kṛṣṇa within my heart can remove such inauspicious contamination.

COMMENT

So, this is also an important point Nirendra Svarupa Prabhu made yesterday. We are not the ones that eradicate the anarthas. Krishna, or Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, is the one. But we pray for it and sincerely desire and adopt the process that’s favorable to it.

In Kunti’s prayers that I just mentioned, atha viśveśa viśvātman, “O Lord of the universe, soul of the universe,” Srila Prabhupada says that to break the ties of family attachment is so difficult that only the Lord of the universe can do it. And that’s why she prays to Him in such terms, because it’s such a monumental task.

Now, we come to a very important point about being patient. So, the devotee thinks. . .

PURPORT (continued)

“By my previous shameful life my heart is polluted with many illusory attachments. Personally I have no power to stop them. Only Lord Kṛṣṇa within my heart can remove such inauspicious contamination. But whether the Lord removes such attachments immediately or lets me go on being afflicted by them, I will never give up my devotional service to Him. Even if the Lord places millions of obstacles in my path, and even if because of my offenses I go to hell, I will never for a moment stop serving Lord Kṛṣṇa.”

COMMENT

So, this is the mood of surrender. This is the mood of pure devotional service.

PURPORT (continued)

I am not interested in mental speculation and fruitive activities; even if Lord Brahmā personally comes before me offering such engagements, I will not be even slightly interested.

COMMENT

In other words, we get advice. People say, “It’s too hard. Don’t be a fanatic. What’s the problem if you do this or that?” They’re not even Lord Brahma, by any means, but even if Lord Brahma were to make such a suggestion, a devotee wouldn’t accept it.

PURPORT (continued)

Although I am attached to material things I can see very clearly that they lead to no good because they simply give me trouble and disturb my devotional service to the Lord.

COMMENT

They give us trouble and they disturb our devotion, they disturb our chanting and other efforts.

PURPORT (continued)

Therefore, I sincerely repent my foolish attachments to so many material things, and I am patiently awaiting Lord Kṛṣṇa’s mercy.”

COMMENT

Now, we come to the point about the devotee feeling happy.

PURPORT (continued)

The word prīta indicates that a devotee feels exactly like the son or subject of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and is very attached to his relationship with the Lord. Therefore, although sincerely lamenting occasional lapses into sense enjoyment, he never gives up his enthusiasm to serve Lord Kṛṣṇa.

COMMENT

There was an incident in Juhu, in Srila Prabhupada’s last year with us, in 1977. I believe the prasāda was late, and he rang the buzzer, “Where’s the prasāda? Why is it late?” And he was very angry. And his servant, or the devotee who was serving him at the time, Nava Yogendra Swami, he said, “Srila Prabhupada, when you become angry like that, we become bewildered. We don’t know what to think, we don’t know what to do, we don’t know how we should feel.” And Srila Prabhupada replied, “You should feel jubilant.” [laughter] “So many people are loitering on the street with no one to care for them, no one to correct them if they do something wrong. So, you should feel jubilant that you have a master who cares for you and will take the trouble to correct you to keep you on the right track.” And, I think that’s the purport here.

PURPORT (continued)

If a devotee becomes too morose or discouraged in devotional service, he may drift into an impersonal consciousness or give up his devotional service to the Lord. Therefore, the Lord here advises that although one should sincerely repent, he should not become chronically depressed. One should understand that because of his past sins he must occasionally suffer disturbances from the material mind and senses, but one should not therefore become a devotee of detachment, as do the speculative philosophers.

COMMENT

I’ll skip a little. It’s all worth reading at your leisure.

And the last paragraph.

PURPORT (continued)

The words jāta-śraddhaḥ mat-kathāsu are most significant here. By faithful hearing of the mercy and glories of the Lord one will gradually be freed from all material desire and clearly see at every moment the utter frustration of sense gratification.

COMMENT

It just comes from hearing and chanting while trying to give up offenses. And we’ve experienced it in the last twenty-four hours, we’ve all experienced it.

PURPORT (continued)

Chanting the glories of the Lord with firm faith and conviction is a tremendously powerful spiritual process that enables one to give up all material association.

There is actually nothing inauspicious in the devotional service of the Lord.

COMMENT

Like she said, it’s all good.

PURPORT (continued)

Occasional difficulties experienced by a devotee are due to his previous material activities. On the other hand, the endeavor for sense gratification is completely inauspicious. Thus sense gratification and devotional service are directly opposed to each other. In all circumstances one should therefore remain the Lord’s sincere servant, always believing in His mercy. Then one will certainly go back home, back to Godhead.

COMMENT

Hare Krishna.

Devotee: What are the verses?

Giriraj Swami: 11.20.27 and 28.

That phrase, “One should therefore remain the Lord’s sincere servant, always believing in His mercy,” it also calls to mind another important verse and purport, tat te ’nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo, which is 10.14.8. That’s well worth reading, the verse and purport. Srila Prabhupada said this should be the guide of all devotees. But the idea is the same, that whatever suffering comes to us, we should accept it as the result of our past activities and accept it as the Lord’s mercy, or pray to the Lord for His mercy, and continue in our devotional service with even more intensity, with body, mind, and words. And if we do, then it becomes our rightful claim to enter the kingdom of God; go back home, back to Godhead.

So, this is sort of a general discussion of how to keep the heart open and soft. Artificial austerities, false renunciation, they make the heart hard, and sense gratification does as well. When King Uttanapada. . . You know the story, Dhruva Maharaja was playing on his lap, playing on the throne, and Dhruva’s stepmother, who was the king’s favorite wife, rebuked Dhruva, “How dare you sit on the throne? You’re not born of my womb.” And his father sided with his stepmother and pushed him away, which was very humiliating. And of course, eventually, Dhruva went to the forest and realized God, and then came back.

So, King Uttanapada, he lamented that because of his attachment to his co-wife, he had become so hard-hearted that to please her, he pushed away his own son. So, both make the heart hard; sense gratification and artificial austerities. The only thing that makes the heart soft is bhakti. So, we have to be on that point; just bhakti. Otherwise, it’s karma or jnana. They’ll both disturb the condition of the heart.

Now, I’m going to bring up a different kind of point, which is about the association of devotees as a factor. Many scriptures, Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Harināma-cintāmaṇi says that to improve one’s japa, one should chant in the association of advanced devotees. Advanced devotees have Krishna in their heart. I mean, everyone does, but they’re more in touch with Krishna in the heart, and they have bhakti in their heart. And the bhakti in their heart can flow into our hearts and infuse us with bhakti, helping our hearts to open up. I think that’s also a major factor in the retreat, the cumulative effect of the devotees.

Now, Srila Rupa Gosvami, out of his list of sixty-four items, he enumerates five as most potent, and one is sadhu-saṅga. And the definition of sadhu-saṅga is svajātīyāśaye snigdhe sādhau saṅgaḥ svato vare. There are three elements to this. One is svajātīyā. There’s a more specific meaning, but in general terms, we could say like-minded. Svajātīyā, the same caste or spiritual family. I think in our case, in general terms, we would say people who are following Krishna consciousness in the line of Srila Prabhupada. That would be basic.

Then, snigdhe. Snigdha means affection. So, the sadhu should be affectionate to you. Now, any pure devotee will be affectionate to every living entity, but depending on his particular service to the Lord, his particular mission, his particular priorities, he may not. There should be an affectionate relationship. And svato vare, he should be more advanced than oneself. I mean, we can have friends who are more or less on the same level, but sadhu-saṅga in this definition is svato vare, someone who’s greater than oneself, someone who’s more advanced than oneself.

Now, there are some interesting points here. One is this svato vare. One year, His Holiness Sacinandana Swami, I think it was the first year he did a very serious nāmāvr̥tā during Kartik at Radha-kunda, and that year, I was spending some time at Govardhana, at that palace where Ravindra Svarupa did his sixty-four rounds, that Tamal Krishna Goswami and I acquired. And Kesava Bharati Maharaja is sort of the sadhu and resident when he’s there.

So, anyway, Sacinandana Swami hardly had any time to either sleep or talk to anyone, he had so many rounds. But still, he found a little time to speak with me. And we discussed this point, because there are some people who have made propaganda, I don’t know what the right word is, that to get that quality of sadhu-saṅga, you have to go outside ISKCON. So, Sacinandana Swami made the point that externally, two devotees might be considered peers, but internally, each one, being a humble Vaishnava, will see the other as superior, as someone from whom he can learn. And then, he gave the example, I hate to say it but just quoting, that he would see me as more advanced than him, and he would think he could learn from me. And I was certainly thinking he’s more advanced and I could learn from him. And in that mood, one can find many devotees who are more advanced than oneself in ISKCON, and get the benefit of sadhu-saṅga.

And Srila Prabhupada made that same point, that we could see all of our godbrothers as Prabhus, people that we could learn from. And in that sense, they could be taken as śikṣā-gurus. And that’s very important, that if we want instruction, if we want guidance, if we want inspiration, it’s there. But we might have to go out of our way to get it, and we have to be in the proper mood of receptivity. And of course, the more we can associate with devotees who are like that, in the same mood of service, and affectionate to us and more advanced, the better it is. All other factors being equal.

Now, on this point of opening the heart, I could give many examples, but because we’re approaching Mother Kirtida’s Disappearance Day, I’ll give an example that relates to her. Mother Kirtida was a disciple of Tamal Krishna Goswami, and she was very strong in her devotion to her spiritual master, and also in her service to other devotees, and in her service to the Deities. And this was true in Dallas, it was true in Vrindavan. Those were the two main places where she spent time.

So, she had cancer, it was terminal, and she was getting ready to leave her body. And at that time, Kesava Bharati dasa Goswami was staying with me at my place in Santa Barbara, and I was phoning her almost every day or two. And in a sense, she was living to reach Tamal Krishna Goswami’s Vyasa-puja. And then, after that, she stopped eating and drinking.

Now, it’s hard to explain, but speaking to her on the phone, it wasn’t even just on the phone with her, but somehow, this tremendous love was flowing from my heart towards her, and it was like she was the dearest person on earth, and we didn’t want her to leave. Kesava Bharati Maharaja felt the same way, and he was saying, “She promised me that she wouldn’t leave until I got back to Dallas,” which was going to be in two more weeks. So, we discussed amongst ourselves, and we decided, “Well, we’ll phone her and tell her that this is how we feel,” which we did.

So then, maybe a few hours or a day later, we got a phone call from Tamal Krishna Goswami saying that he doesn’t recommend that we try to hold her back. He said, “She’s determined to go, and even if the traffic light is red, she’s going to run the light.” [laughter] “She’s going to go through the traffic light anyway, she’s determined.” And he said, “She’s a nurse, and she knows very well what happens at the time of death. And she knows that if she stays in the body too much longer, various symptoms are going to set in that will make it hard for her to think of Krishna. So, she wants to leave now. She’s decided to leave now, she’s not going to eat or drink. But you have your own relationships with her, you’re free to speak with her.” So, that was the discussion.

So, Kesava Bharati Maharaja and I conferred, “What’s really going on behind the scenes there? Is Srila Gurudeva presenting his own perspective on it, which might not be exactly the same as hers?” [laughter] “How do we deal with this?” [laughter] But we both decided, Kesava Bharati Maharaja and I, that we’re not going to act immediately. We’re going to take some time and chant, and do some introspection, and then decide. So, I went out to walk and chant, and he stayed back. And both of us independently came to the same conclusion, that we should let her go. I mean, not even that we really had any choice. [laughter] You heard of, govindāya namo namaḥ? They have that saying in India. You’re carrying some puffed rice, and then the wind blows it off. But before it hits the ground, govindāya namo namaḥ, you offer it to Krishna, get the credit. [laughter]

From one point of view, she was gone anyway, so we might as well. . . But it was more than that, we each had our own internal realizations. And then we phoned, and we encouraged her to proceed on the course that she had chosen.

So, this was the point, that in this conversation with Tamal Krishna Goswami, he mentioned the idea that she had opened up our heart chakras. Not just us, but many devotees. And therefore, there was this strong flow of love and confidence. Confidence meaning feeling you could speak to her in confidence, and like she was a mother; very strongly in the mood that she was a mother. So, I heard it, I didn’t think too much about it.

And then, on my previous visit to Dallas, I met with various devotees, some of them I chanted with. And a large proportion of them commented that it was some of the best japa they ever chanted. And I was chanting with them, and I was thinking, I don’t think that this is due to my spiritual advancement, so I don’t think I’m very spiritually advanced, and I don’t think I’m a very good chanter of japa. So, I was thinking, What could be the explanation? And then, I thought, Well, maybe their heart chakras are opening up, and that’s why they’re able to chant like that.

So, anyway, I thought, When I get back to California, I’ll discuss with my vaidya, my Ayurvedic physician. Now, this man is coming in a paramparā of vaidyas that treated Lord Krishna’s son Samba in Dvaraka. He said it’s mentioned in one of the Puranas. And his whole lineage is in India, but due to certain circumstances, he came to the United States maybe ten, maybe fifteen years ago. And he’s quite spiritually evolved. He explained that there are nine levels of pulse. The most superficial would be the tissue, then the organs, and just deeper, deeper, deeper. Then, the eighth is the mind, and the ninth is the consciousness.

And he even mentioned the devotee who went to him, and he said there was a big gulf between her consciousness, which sometimes he’d call the light of the soul, it’s all coming from Sanskrit, and her mind. And when her mind is more closely aligned to the light of the soul, she’s very devotional and blissful, and one other adjective. But when that gulf becomes wide, then she becomes very angry and suspicious and doubtful, which really described what we knew of her. And I said, “What caused that gap?” And he said, “Childhood trauma.” And I said, “Where did you get that?” And he said, “From her pulse.”

And then, he said that actual Ayurveda is not meant to be practiced by ordinary people. The Ayurveda was meant for sages who did tapasya, who had sadhana, who were spiritually evolved. An ordinary person can’t feel your pulse and know these things. And he even described in terms of consciousness, there are six pulses in the mode of goodness, I think three in the mode of passion, and two in the mode of ignorance. And those are pretty fixed, sort of like an enneagram type.

So, anyway, I wanted to ask him about this phenomenon of the heart chakra opening up, because I wanted to get some perspective on it from shastra. And it’s Ayurveda, he goes mainly by charts. So, he said that they don’t use the term chakra so much; the Buddhists use it a lot. But in Ayurveda, they use the term hrid pundarika, the lotus of the heart. And it’s so fascinating. Whenever I meet him, I always get so many answers. But then afterwards, I think of so many questions.

So, he drew a diagram, and in the center is the consciousness, and then, surrounding the consciousness, one is buddhi, intelligence. Like Prabhupada said, “The intelligence is the next-door neighbor of the soul.” So, he drew a diagram that showed the intelligence, and then there’s the mind.

So, within the original consciousness, there is no pain, but pain is experienced in the mind. But somehow, the experience of pain within the mind is communicated to the intelligence and the consciousness. And he said, “When there’s pain or hatred, the lotus of the heart closes.” And he said that ultimately, the whole system is meant to keep the soul in the body as long as possible. And so, he said that when there’s a lot of pain, the natural reaction of the soul is to want to leave. So, the lotus contracts to keep the soul from leaving the body. I mean, we usually think of it the other way, that the heart closes to keep out pain, or to keep out negative emotions, threats. But the other side is to keep the soul from trying to escape prematurely.

So, this diagram, it’s a six-pointed star, Star of David. And the two sides, I think there’s happiness and distress. I was going to say pleasure and pain, but I think it was sukha-dukhā. And there’s, I think, desire and hate, dveṣa. And then, at the bottom is one’s intention.

So, I said, “Well, when there’s this perception of either pain, or hatred, or envy, then the lotus of the heart will close. So then, what do you do?” He said, “In a general sense, you try to upset the pain with pleasure, upset the hate with love. And then, that will keep the lotus open to a reasonable degree.” But then, he said, “When the heart is filled with Krishna consciousness, the lotus always remains open and nothing can bother it.” I gave the example that if we chant in congenial association, our heart opens up. And then, someone insults us or offends us, so it’s like we’re sort of vulnerable because our heart is opened up.

So, he said, “Yes, but if your heart is filled with Krishna consciousness, nothing will be able to disturb it. Even if someone comes and says so many bad things about you, you’ll just smile and say, “Yes, what you said is very good, I’m glad you told me that.” [laughter]

And it reminded me exactly of Haridasa Thakura, when he was glorifying the holy name, and this offender said, “This is not possible that just by a glimpse of the holy name, nāma-ābhāsa, you can get liberation.” And he challenged Haridasa Thakura, “If what you say is not true, then you let your nose fall off.” And Haridasa Thakura said, “Yes, if what I say is not true, let my nose fall off.” And of course, everyone in the assembly was really upset with the offender, and Haridasa Thakura just smiled, he was peaceful, and he said, “Don’t take it seriously, he’s ignorant, that’s why he spoke the way he did.” But of course, he was an offender, and he was struck with leprosy, and his beautiful brahminical nose melted and fell off.

So, one whose heart is filled with Krishna, with bhakti, his heart never closes, but he responds. I mean, Srila Prabhupada, he experienced, I think, every sentiment that anyone experiences, but it was all in relation to Krishna. I think sometimes people might have an artificial or theoretical idea of what a pure devotee is, but at least from what I saw, he had all the sentiments that other people had, but it was all in relation to Krishna.

Devotee: More so than us.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, yeah. Yes, he could feel at a much deeper level than anyone, yeah.

But, just to give one example of anxiety—it’s a common experience. Well, the construction was going on in Juhu, and the site supervisor, his brother-in-law, was the store’s manager. And this is so amazing. We were in Juhu, we didn’t have a clue as to what was happening. Prabhupada was in Nairobi, and he knew exactly what was happening.

So, anyway, the storekeeper, he was throwing the construction supplies over the wall into the neighbor’s property, he had an arrangement with the neighbor. Then at night, he would get the cement, the iron rods, and sell them, and they’d divide up the money. So, meanwhile in Nairobi, Srila Prabhupada almost stopped eating. And Brahmananda asked him, “Prabhupada, you’re hardly eating now.” And Prabhupada said, “How can I eat when my property is being stolen?”

So then, he came back to Juhu, and he wanted to immediately dismiss the storekeeper. And Saurabh, who was the devotee in charge of the construction, wanted to keep him. He thought, We’ll institute some system of checking, so he can’t cheat. But Prabhupada was adamant, he said, “No, we don’t want to work with this person.”

I happened to be there. He was appealing to Saurabh to give him relief from this anxiety. It was one of those things he was speaking in a wry way, but there was truth to it on a certain level. And he said, “I came to Krishna consciousness for a life of bliss, and instead, I have a life of anxiety.” [laughter] But it was transcendental, but it doesn’t mean he liked it. And it was an impetus for him to take action.

Sometimes devotees ask, “Well, how do I know if my anxiety is transcendental or not?” I mean, I can’t really judge, but I would say that if it serves as an impetus to service, it’s okay. But if it serves to be debilitating, then it’s not.

And once, Siddha Svarupa from Hawaii, he was a devotee. He’s another part of ISKCON’s history, but his mood was very mellow, everything very mellow. And so, once, he said to Srila Prabhupada, “One thing I can’t stand about your disciples is they’re always in anxiety.” And Prabhupada said, “That is their love.” [laughter] “The gopīs were always in anxiety for Krishna.” So, I mean, there are other emotions: lamentation; anger, but for the sake of time, I’ll just stick to anxiety, but the full range was there.

So now, coming back to Vaidya Misra and the heart lotus. So, he was saying that if the heart is filled with Krishna consciousness, then nothing will be able to enter it, it’ll only be Krishna consciousness, and that Krishna consciousness will react to whatever comes. If it’s something like criticism, just smile and say, “Yes, what you said is very good.” We sort of get a sense from how Prabhupada reacted. Sometimes he would get angry if someone was offensive, but not because he was taking it personally, but because they were offending Krishna or the devotees.

And then, he said that if the light in your soul is very powerful, it can enter into someone else’s heart. Yes, this is a very crucial point. So, he was saying, if someone has those two points; pain or hatred in their heart, but your love can go from your heart into their heart and instantly heal the pain that’s in their heart, then the result is that the heart lotus will open up.

So, I think this is another aspect, or maybe just another analysis of what happens when you’re in the association of an advanced devotee, when you chant in the association of an advanced devotee. And I think we can all have that effect on others, to the degree that we have that genuine love and care and Krishna consciousness in our hearts can enter people’s hearts. And just instantly, things that were troubling them for decades, pain that they’d carried with them gets healed.

So, I’ll just add one little other thing he said, and then I’ll add to that to put it in perspective. So then, he said I could do that, because he said he can feel the light from my soul coming into his heart, but he’s also quite evolved, so I also feel the light from his soul coming into my heart. So, we have a pretty good time when we’re together. [laughter]

But what I wanted to add is that he is primarily a healer, we’re primarily devotees. Now, in Ayurveda, he said that their mission is to care for the person, not the body of the person. And that includes the body, and the mind, and the soul, they care for the whole person. But he’s a healer, he considers himself a healer, he presents himself as a healer. I mean, it’s true, I do get something very powerful from him when I meet him, and which helps me with my health, and it also helps me to understand the whole process of healing on all different levels.

It’s not the same as being with Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu or [Unintelligible 01:19:37] or anyone like that, because they’re primarily devotees. But it is nice to see a healer on that level, and to be able to understand phenomenon that we experience or that people talk about in different circles and different languages, how it relates to shastra, Ayurvedic shastra.

So now, my heart is completely open, and I want to give the mic to Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu. Whatever comes out will just enter very deeply.