SB 2.3.23 – How to Become Free from a “Ghost-Like” Existence

Giriraj Swami: So there are different methods of acquiring knowledge or attempting to acquire knowledge. Earlier today someone asked how do we know if Krishna consciousness is real? And I replied, among other things, how do we know if anything is real? So, according to Vedic philosophy, Veda literally means knowledge, but according to Vedic philosophy there are different methods for acquiring knowledge or different types of evidence. The best method is called śabda which literally means sound, and in this context, it means the sounds coming from a higher plane of existence, the sounds coming from the spiritual world, coming from the supreme being, coming from self-realized sages. Another type of evidence is called anumāna; anumāna means inference, logic, reason. We might hear some sound outside of this room and we don’t actually see where it is coming from but we surmise that a car is passing by on the street. We haven’t seen the car but from the sound, we think it is a car, but it might not be. And then the third type is called pratyakṣa which means direct perception, and direct perception is also very limited, our senses function within a certain range. For example, a sound vibration if it is very high we can’t hear it, if it is very low we can’t hear it. An object of vision if it is very small we can’t see it, if it is very far we can’t see it. Our senses are limited in so many ways, and therefore, direct perception is not considered reliable, and inference is also not considered reliable, but śabda is considered most reliable.

So in our meetings, we often speak, and this is with the tradition that Srila Prabhupada, who is our teacher, founder, set the example, he said that his predecessor said, is that they read from a sacred text, śabda and commented on it. And what they comment also is not based on their own mental speculation but it is based on information, śabda, information, transcendental sounds, descending from higher regions. So, following that tradition, we will speak on a verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Now, this is the Bhagavad-gītā, this is the basic book of Vedic knowledge, the essence spoken by Lord Krishna Himself. And far advanced than the Bhagavad-gītā is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam which is a much longer work. This is the whole Bhagavad-gītā, seven hundred verses, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam has eighteen thousand and it is published in many volumes. But we are going to read a verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam which brings together many points that I have been asked about or asked to speak about today. You can hear the sound vibration itself is purifying and we will speak in English. Please repeat after me.

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

We read from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Canto Two, Chapter Three, “Pure Devotional Service,”

TEXT 23

jīvañ chavo bhāgavatāṅghri-reṇuṁ

na jātu martyo ‘bhilabheta yas tu

śrī-viṣṇu-padyā manujas tulasyāḥ

śvasañ chavo yas tu na veda gandham

TRANSLATION

The person who has not at any time received the dust of the feet of the Lord’s pure devotee upon his head is certainly a dead body. And the person who has never experienced the aroma of the tulasī leaves from the lotus feet of the Lord is also a dead body, although breathing.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

According to Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, the breathing dead body is a ghost. When a man dies, he is called dead, but when he again appears in a subtle form not visible to our present vision and yet acts, such a dead body is called a ghost. Ghosts are always very bad elements, always creating a fearful situation for others.

COMMENT

So, I will stop here. The first instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā is that the living entity is a spiritual particle distinct from the material energy. Matter is created, it endures for some time, and then it is destroyed, or at least the different manifestations of matter. Whereas the ātmā is eternal, it has no beginning and no end. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, it is not slayed when the body is slayed. So, our actual identity is spiritual. We all understand that there is a difference between a living body and a dead body, but what is the difference? The difference is that in the living body the ātmā is present and in the dead body the ātmā has gone. All the other ingredients of the body are there, all the organs are there, everything is there pretty much that was there the moment before the person died, but something has changed and what has changed is that actual person, the ātmā, has left the body. And no matter what you do to the body after the ātmā is gone you cannot bring the body back to life.

So everyone by nature is interested in his own benefit, his own self-interest, but we cannot really know what our self-interest is unless we know what our self is, what our actual self is. And our actual self is not the body but the soul, the ātmā within the body. And because we misidentify ourselves with the body we are never satisfied or happy. The body is like a cage and the ātmā is like a bird within the cage, you can decorate the cage very nicely with silk, cushions, and valuable jewels, and scented with aromatic flowers, and incense, but if you don’t feed the bird, the bird will not be happy, eventually, the bird will die. So the body is like a cage and we do so much for the sake of the body, but we always remain dissatisfied because we are not feeding our real self, we are just polishing the cage, the bars of the cage. So, understanding who we are, what is our real self, is the key to understanding what is our self-interest. And our self-interest is to become re-established in our eternal relationship with the supreme soul. In Sanskrit, there is the word ātmā, jīvātmā, which is the individual soul, and Paramātmā which is the supreme soul. And we can only be happy and satisfied in that relationship, fully happy and fully satisfied.

There is an authority on marriage, he has written books and he travels extensively conducting seminars and workshops. And he said that marriage is not meant to make you happy, marriage is meant to make you married, and when you are properly and securely married that provides a structure within which you can find your own happiness. So, in Vedic terms that is the principle of varnashrama-dharma, that we find a situation that provides some, we are in the material world but provides some security and some stability within which we can find our own happiness and our own happiness means spiritual happiness. The temporary pleasures of the material world cannot really be called happiness because they are very flickering. So, the food for the soul is devotional service, bhakti, bhakti-yoga, yoga means to link or connect like we have the English word yoke which comes from yoga, to yoke two oxen to a cart. So yoga means to connect with the Supreme and bhakti means devotional service so through bhakti-yoga we can connect to the Supreme and actually be happy and satisfied.

Now, this verse mentions the living dead or I should say the breathing dead. And Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, who is one of the great authorities in the line, says that a dead person who breathes is a ghost. Now, how many people in this room believe that ghosts exist? Raise your hand. How many of you think that ghosts are just something that people believe in based on some sort of superstition or ghosts are just something that you read about in books? Okay. So, according to the analysis of the ātmā, the soul being eternal, and existing after it leaves the body, so then the next question is, and every one of us should ask this question, where does the soul go after it leaves the body? Because its duration in the body is very limited, sixty years, eighty years, one hundred years, not to exclude the possibility, but it is possible or even likely that a hundred years from now not a single one of us will be in the in the same body that we are in now. And so okay, say we have a one hundred years in this body, probably not even that much, but say one hundred years in this body, and after we leave the body we have one hundred million, billion, trillion, gazillion years, no limit. So it would really be sensible for us to consider where we are going after we leave the body. Just like if you are in a house that is condemned you will think, Where am I going to go next? You are not going to spend all your time decorating the house that is condemned and you are going to have to leave, it is more important to figure out where you are going to go, or more precisely, where you want to go, and then take measures to get there.

So, according to Vedic literature, there are eight million four hundred thousand species of life and you can enter into any one of them depending on your karma, your activities, and your thoughts at the time of death. And there are higher planets, there are lower planets, there are intermediate planets. So you should decide where you want to go and then you should decide how to get there. And so the Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, give explanation, give directions how to achieve different destinations. But the best destination by any analysis is to get released from the cycle of birth and death, from having to take birth again in the material world and suffer, but rather to go to the spiritual realm and live eternally in loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So now, what is a ghost? Coming back to that question. A ghost is not really exactly one of those eight million four hundred thousand species of life, but a ghost is a living entity who didn’t want a physical body. One way to become a ghost, pretty much maybe the most common way to become a ghost, is to commit suicide because committing suicide means in effect you don’t want a physical body. But you are not liberated because most people commit suicide because they have material desires and they feel frustrated and disappointed, so disappointed that their desires have been frustrated that they commit suicide. So, they have material desires but they didn’t want a gross physical body so they got a ghost body, and they are very frustrated, more frustrated because they have all the same material desires but they have no chance of fulfilling them through that gross body.

There was a movie some years ago called Ghost, and I heard devotees say that it gave quite an accurate depiction of the life of a ghost, and they even surmised that the people who made the movie had read Srila Prabhupada’s books, read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So anyway, I didn’t go to see it, but lo and behold, it so happened that on a flight I took it was being shown on the airplane so I couldn’t resist. And just to give an example, there is one scene where the ghost is on a railway platform and there is a vending machine with cigarettes. And he really wants to smoke a cigarette but he can’t because he doesn’t have a gross physical body. So because they have material desires without a gross material body they try to gain possession of someone else’s body so they can fulfill their desires through the other person’s body, therefore, they create disturbances.

So, anyway, we could say more about ghosts, it is a big topic, just very briefly, the other ways a living entity can take birth as a ghost is if he or she is very attached to something inanimate. Say someone is living in a big castle or palace and they are very much invested in that palace or castle or mansion and at the time of death, they think of their mansion. So they can’t take birth as a mansion because it is not a type of body that you can get but they can take birth as a ghost in the mansion or palace or castle. And that is why a lot of big mansions are haunted by ghosts because the owners are so attached. And when it is known that the mansion is haunted people don’t want to buy it, and it actually happened in the history of ISKCON that very big properties were available for a low cost because they were haunted and the devotees asked Srila Prabhupada, “What should we do? Should we buy it?” And he said, “Yes, you can buy it and you chant Hare Krishna and the ghost will go away, and you get a big property for a small price.” But again, our subject here is not really ghosts, our subject is what it means to be alive. So now I will read how the example of a dead person breathing relates to us, every one of us here.

PURPORT (continued)

Ghosts are always very bad elements, always creating a fearful situation for others. Similarly, the ghostlike nondevotees who have no respect for the pure devotees, nor for the Viṣṇu Deity in the temples, create a fearful situation for the devotees at all times. The Lord never accepts any offering by such impure ghosts.

COMMENT

So, there is a beautiful verse in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, which is the science of bhakti-yoga, that says that the desire for material enjoyment and the desire for impersonal liberation to merge and become one with the light are like ghosts and witches. And as long as one is haunted by these ghosts one cannot relish the sweet taste of devotional service, bhakti-yoga. So, why do we say that someone who has desires for material sense gratification or impersonal liberation is like a person haunted by a ghost? Because when a ghost gets possession of you, you think things that are not really you. Sometimes it happens momentarily; someone is possessed by a ghost and has all sorts of different thoughts that are very foreign to his usual consciousness. So, as spiritual beings our nature is to love and serve God, Krishna, that is our natural position. So to have these alien desires to want to gratify the senses of this body or to escape the body and merge into some oneness or void it is like being haunted by a ghost. So these aren’t me, these aren’t my desires, these are foreign to me. So to progress in bhakti and really relish that sweet taste one has to be free from these ghost-like desires. And people who are possessed by these desires, they are also like ghosts, and they create difficulties for devotees, pure devotees. And how can they become free from their ghostlike existence is by taking shelter of pure devotees. That is the only way they can become free, and that is explained here in the verse and further in the purport.

PURPORT (continued)

There is a common saying that one should first love the dog of the beloved before one shows any loving sentiments for the beloved.

COMMENT

There is a saying, love me love my dog, you don’t love my dog you can’t love me.

PURPORT (continued)

The stage of pure devotion is attained by sincerely serving a pure devotee of the Lord.

COMMENT

In other words, pure devotees are like the pet dogs of the Lord.

PURPORT (continued)

The first condition of devotional service to the Lord is therefore to be a servant of a pure devotee, and this condition is fulfilled by the statement “reception of the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee who has also served another pure devotee.” This is the way of pure disciplic succession, or devotional paramparā.

COMMENT

In other words, for me to be released from my ghost-like existence, haunted by these extraneous desires to enjoy the senses or merge, I have to take shelter of a pure devotee. But who a pure devotee? A pure devotee is someone who has taken shelter of another pure devotee, who in turn has taken shelter of another pure devotee, going all the way back in our context to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who is Krishna, He is God Himself in the role of a devotee.

PURPORT (continued)

Mahārāja Rahūgaṇa inquired from the great saint Jaḍa Bharata as to how he had attained such a liberated stage of a paramahaṁsa, and in answer the great saint replied as follows (Bhāg. 5.12.12):

rahūgaṇaitat tapasā na yāti

na cejyayā nirvapaṇād gṛhād vā

na cchandasā naiva jalāgni-sūryair

vinā mahat-pāda-rajo-’bhiṣekam

“O King Rahūgaṇa, the perfectional stage of devotional service, or the paramahaṁsa stage of life, cannot be attained unless one is blessed by the dust of the feet of great devotees. It is never attained by tapasya [austerity], the Vedic worshiping process, acceptance of the renounced order of life, the discharge of the duties of household life, the chanting of the Vedic hymns, or the performance of penances in the hot sun, within cold water, or before the blazing fire.”

COMMENT

So there are so many processes, everywhere people are recommending processes for spiritual elevation or self-realization, and none of them are effective to the point that one can actually achieve spiritual perfection. Only taking shelter of a pure devotee can bring one to the highest stage of perfection, and that is a little difficult. I mean it is really not difficult but it is a little difficult because of our false egos. Our false ego said, “Why should you bow down to someone else? Everyone should bow down to you, they just don’t know your greatness.” There is a singer named Boy George who visited the holy place of Krishna in India called Vrindavan and he had seen devotees bow down to Krishna. And when he came to the temple in Vrindavan, our temple in Vrindavan, he was surprised to see so many people were not bowing down because of that pride, that false ego, that envy of Krishna. And so he wrote a song Bow Down Mister, Bow Down Mister, mister, a mister, bow down mister, you are not such a big man, bow down before Krishna.

But if we can give up that false ego, false pride, and false prestige, it is very easy. It is very easy because the pure devotee gives you correct instructions on how to live your life and if you just follow the instructions you achieve perfection. It is like you go to a doctor if he is a proper doctor he diagnoses your disease, and he gives you the proper treatment and the proper diet, and you follow it, and you get cured, it is very easy. But if you are the type, “Oh, I don’t know about that,” I know people like to go on the internet they read up all the different things that people say about the disease, all the different side effects of the medicines, all the different alternatives, and they get so bewildered they can’t follow any course of treatment, and they don’t get better. You actually need a doctor and you have to follow the doctor’s instructions, it should be a proper doctor, you can’t be your own doctor, you can’t be your own guru. Those who heard the morning’s class will realize the connection here.

PURPORT (continued)

In other words, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the property of His pure, unconditional devotees, and as such only the devotees can deliver Kṛṣṇa to another devotee; Kṛṣṇa is never obtainable directly. Lord Caitanya therefore designated Himself as gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, or “the most obedient servant of the servants of the Lord, who maintains the gopī damsels at Vṛndāvana.” A pure devotee therefore never approaches the Lord directly, but tries to please the servant of the Lord’s servants, and thus the Lord becomes pleased, and only then can the devotee relish the taste of the tulasī leaves stuck to the Lord’s lotus feet. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said that the Lord is never to be found by becoming a great scholar of the Vedic literatures, but He is very easily approachable through His pure devotee.

COMMENT

And now we are coming to another confidential secret, how one can get the Lord’s mercy and attain the highest perfection?

PURPORT (continued)

In Vṛndāvana all the pure devotees pray for the mercy of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, the pleasure potency of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

COMMENT

She is represented here in the central altar, there is Krishna and beside Him is Radha. And when we chant Hare Krishna, the Hare refers to Radha and the Krishna refers to Krishna. This is a whole science which we cannot discuss right now but it is not idol worship. Hare Krishna.

PURPORT (continued)

In Vṛndāvana all the pure devotees pray for the mercy of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, the pleasure potency of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

COMMENT

What does that mean pleasure potency? What does potency mean? Does anyone know the meaning of the word potency? Yes, power, energy. So She is the pleasure potency, that means that She is Krishna’s energy who has the power to give pleasure to Krishna, and by giving pleasure to Krishna we experience pleasure. That is where we began earlier, that our pleasure is experienced by giving pleasure to Krishna so the pleasure that the devotee experiences in devotional service, that is also a manifestation of the pleasure potency of Krishna or Srimati Radharani.

PURPORT (continued)

Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is a tenderhearted feminine counterpart of the supreme whole, resembling the perfectional stage of the worldly feminine nature.

COMMENT

In other words, the masculine nature descends from Krishna but it is reflected in a mundane way here. And the feminine nature descends from Radharani and that is also reflected in the material world. So, Srimati Radharani is the tenderhearted feminine counterpart of the supreme whole, Radha and Krishna together are the supreme whole, and She is the feminine tenderhearted counterpart. And it is usually like that, not all, it is usually like that in families, especially if someone becomes a devotee and the parents don’t like it usually the father is a little harder on the child, and the mother is well if it makes him happy it makes her happy, it is okay. And the father might, “But I wanted you to be this, I wanted you to be that, I had so many hopes and plans for you and now you become Hare Krishna.” But independent of that,

PURPORT (continued)

Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is a tenderhearted feminine counterpart of the supreme whole, resembling the perfectional stage of the worldly feminine nature. Therefore, the mercy of Rādhārāṇī is available very readily to the sincere devotees, and once She recommends such a devotee to Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Lord at once accepts the devotee’s admittance into His association. The conclusion is, therefore, that one should be more serious about seeking the mercy of the devotee than that of the Lord directly, and by one’s doing so (by the good will of the devotee) the natural attraction for the service of the Lord will be revived.

COMMENT

So, by that mercy, our natural attraction for the service of the Lord is revived, and by that attraction, we become eager to serve the Lord, and the Lord, ultimately, is very kind and merciful also and He fulfills all of the living entities desires, and especially when they desire to serve Him and experience eternal bliss, He fulfills their desire. So this process of serving the devotee begins here with our own contemporaries, devotees, and it goes all the way up to the spiritual world, all the way to Srimati Radharani who is the better half of Krishna. So, these are actually very deep and confidential topics, but I felt they should be spoken, and I hope that you have understood at least some of the gist of the discussion.

So now we will take a few minutes in case any of you have questions or comments or challenges, and then we will sing one short prayer, and then there will be vegetarian dinner. So, are there any questions or comments? Yes. Do you want to pass around the microphone?

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:47:58].

Giriraj Swami: I am not following. Somebody wants to. . .

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:48:52].

Giriraj Swami: Oh, rabi [Unintelligible 00:48:55]?

Devotee: Yes, in this [Unintelligible 00:48:57].

Giriraj Swami: Oh, that is not suicide, that is very different. From one point of view their next birth will depend on their thoughts at the time of death, that is one side, the thoughts of the time of death, the other side is the karma. Now, being murdered like that, although it is very horrible and gruesome and terrible, but it does free that person of a lot of karma. We don’t know what karma the person had but it does free the person of karma. So, it is hard to say but all other factors being equal, I would say that such a person probably would get a better birth in the next life because they had some moral principles, but there are so many variables, but they did have some moral principles and if they did have some bad karma that needed to be exhausted so definitely being murdered in such a ghastly way would free them. But it is definitely not in the same category as suicide. Anyway, there is so many problems in society and that is why we really need to help people with this knowledge so they don’t do these horrible things, it is a terrible thing to do.

Devotee: How are ghosts liberated?

Giriraj Swami: Oh, how are ghosts liberated? That is a very good question.

Well, they are liberated by the mercy of devotees and by hearing the holy name. The holy name is beneficial to anyone who hears it no matter what kind of body they are in, even animals benefit by hearing the holy name, even plants benefit by hearing the holy name, so ghosts also benefit. And they also benefit by hearing recitation of the Bhagavad-gītā or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, anything that will bring them in touch with Krishna will serve to free them from the ghostly existence. Yes. Yes Gadadhara

Devotee: [Unintelligible 00:52:38].

Giriraj Swami: Well, that is a good question. What do we mean by the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee?

The general explanation would be that it means the instructions of the pure devotee, taking shelter of a pure devotee means taking shelter of the instructions of the pure devotee. And so taking the dust from the lotus feet of the pure devotee means that condition is fulfilled by following the instructions of the pure devotee. But there is also a literal meaning as well, and there is a verse in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, bhakta-pada-dhūli āra bhakta-pada-jala. So bhakta-pada-dhūli means the dust of the pure devotee, bhakta-pada-jala means the water that has washed the feet of the pure devotee and the remnants of foodstuffs eaten by the pure devotee. According to Caitanya-caritāmṛta Eighteen, these three substances are very powerful and they can award one love for Krishna.

And there is an example in Caitanya-caritāmṛta of someone who was very eager to take the dust of the feet of pure devotees, drink the water that washed the feet of pure devotees, and eat the remnants of the foodstuffs of pure devotees. And the explanation is that suppose someone has a highly contagious disease; so say if that person breathes on you and you inhale those germs you can get infected, or if you use the same bathroom that has been infected by the diseased person you can get the disease. There are so many ways that you can catch a contagious disease from another person. So, in this analogy, the pure devotee is infected with love of Krishna, and by taking that dust, by drinking the water that has washed his or her feet, by eating the remnants of food, just like if someone is sick, their food may be contaminated with their disease and if you eat what they ate you can get sick. So, that is the negative side. The positive side is someone who has love of Krishna, that love of Krishna, that infection permeates whatever he or she does and so coming in contact with that person can infect you with that same disease.

I will give two examples from Srila Prabhupada, I was going to begin with the dust of the lotus feet because that one seems a little harder to experience. But during his last days, when he was in good health he didn’t really allow his disciples to touch him very much physically, but during his last days in Vrindavan, he did allow disciples to massage his body. And so one day I got the opportunity to be at his feet and there were little particles of dust, I mean everything was magnified because he was a pure devotee and it was Vrindavan, but each of those little particles was so vivid, “Oh, this is the dust, this is the dust of the lotus feet of the pure devotee.”

But before then the very first time when I met Srila Prabhupada in Boston and started to come to the temple. So then Prabhupada left and I think maybe the day after he left, so the devotees were sitting and eating, honoring prasāda, and one disciple came around with some dal, like a split peas soup that Srila Prabhupada had eaten from but because it was a couple of days old, I guess they just found it in his apartment after he left, they said it had gone bad, that is what they told me. So they came in the room with this and they are distributing like every disciple was just going mad to get that remnants. And I was new, I just been coming for ten days, and so when they came to my place in the line they said that, “I am not sure if you want to try this, it is dal, it is been eaten by Srila Prabhupada, but from the material point of view it has gone bad. But if you have faith you can try it.” I said, “Okay, I will try it.” So I put that dal in my mouth and when it touched my tongue my initial experience was, “Oh, it is gone off.” But then somehow I reached another level of the experience and it tasted like the most sublime nectar, I felt, “Wow, I have never tasted anything so sublime.” So yes, bhakta-pada-dhūli the dust of the feet of the pure devotee, bhakta-pada-jala the water that has washed the feet, and what’s that? bhakta-bhukta-avaśeṣa—remnants of the pure devotee; eighteen, these three are very powerful substances and they can award one love of Krishna.

Devotee: Hare Krishna Maharaja. [Unintelligible 01:00:03].

Giriraj Swami: This is a very good question. She says that, “Someone may begin the course of devotional service but may not be completely successful in the present lifetime, so then what happens to the person?”

So in the Bhagavad-gītā, Lord Krishna says that the person will begin in the next life where he or she left off in the previous life so there is no loss or diminution. That is like anything material, say in this life I have learned ten different languages but in my next life when I am born, I have to start all over again. But spiritually, whatever progress you have made stays with you. Now, it is also said that when one surrenders to the spiritual master one agrees to follow his instructions to the best of his abilities but if by chance the disciple is not able to finish the course completely successfully and takes birth again, the spiritual master will come again to deliver that disciple. So, how does that work?

So again, in temples every day we sing a song to the spiritual master cakṣu-dāna dila yei, janme janme prabhu sei, he who has given me the gift of transcendental knowledge he is my Lord birth after birth. So, he will see that you are given a chance to continue from where you left off in the next life, and it may or may not be that he comes personally, he may send someone and that is also his mercy. Sometimes, dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, we might think, Oh, I want to be the direct servant of my spiritual master. But it may actually be beneficial to be the servant of the servant of your spiritual master.

After Srila Prabhupada left some of Prabhupada’s disciples consulted a very learned Gaudiya Vaishnava and they asked him about this point because Prabhupada just left. So his first answer was that Krishna is the original spiritual master, Krishna will make sure that there is someone to guide you so you can make further progress. But the disciples led by Tamal Krishna Goswami they were in the mood, “Well, we don’t want just anyone, we want Prabhupada.” So, then this elderly Vaishnava said, “Well, it is really between the spiritual master and Krishna because the spiritual master is with Krishna enjoying pastimes in Vrindavan and then there are these disciples who are still left in the material world who have to be delivered.” And so in this portrayal, Srila Prabhupada would say to Krishna that, “I have some disciples in the material world, they want me to come and deliver them.” And Krishna said, “Well, I can send someone, I can arrange someone, you don’t have to leave.” And he said, “Well, but they won’t accept anyone else, they want only me.” And then Krishna said, “Oh, all right, then you can go.”

So it is very personal exactly how it takes place, but it is a fact, that once you begin you will be cared for until the end but there is no end, it means you will be cared for eternally. You will never be without guidance, you will never be without the opportunity for guidance, and you will never be without the opportunity for shelter.

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:05:36].

Giriraj Swami: So she is saying, “What if someone begins the process of devotional service and is following the process but never takes initiation?”

So now, what do you mean that the person is following the process but doesn’t take initiation?

Devotee: For example, [Unintelligible 01:05:56].

Giriraj Swami: Oh, well, it really depends on your consciousness, and it depends on how strong your connection with Krishna and His devotees is. In other words, there is a purport in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, something like, if one refuses to take initiation from a bonafide spiritual master then he cannot make progress. In other words, if someone, as we were discussing bow down mister, if someone out of pride or envy or rebelliousness refuses to accept a spiritual master well that is one situation. If someone has a connection but it has not been formalized by initiation and the person happens to leave the body, if the connection is strong enough even without the formality of initiation one can go to the spiritual master. It is exceptional but it is certainly possible.

Srila Prabhupada, I say disciple but he was never initiated, but he had one devotee in Bombay, Mr. Sethi, he was an amazing devotee and he never took initiation. But I shouldn’t say that in those terms because he brought it up to Srila Prabhupada. He said, “People are saying, ‘Why aren’t you initiated?’” And Srila Prabhupada told him that, “If you are initiated you can serve the deity, but you are serving my devotees and serving the devotees is better than serving the deities.” That was part of the answer and the other part of the answer is that, “I need someone like you to do things for me, to get things done in the material world, and if you are initiated you won’t be able to do some of the things that you are doing for me now. So, I want you to stay as you are and do the service you are doing.” But he was fully sold out for Srila Prabhupada, he had more faith in Srila Prabhupada than you could imagine. And the account of his life and then his last days, I think the day he left or the day before he left his body, he was saying, he was telling his family members, he was bedridden, completely bedridden, he was telling his family members, “Pack my bags, I have to go.” They said, “What are you talking about?” “Yes, Prabhupada is here, I have to go, pack my bags, Prabhupada has come to get me.” So, it is possible to get an extremely staunch, loyal, and dedicated follower of Srila Prabhupada with personal contact, not like in my mind where Prabhupada is my guru, I never saw him, I never heard him, but he had real contact with Srila Prabhupada, very deep commitment and relationship with him. And I have no doubt that he is gone to Srila Prabhupada.

Well, I think we can end here, I don’t think it could get better than this. Thank you very much.

Hare Krishna.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.