SB 4.24.30 – Respecting Devotees—Shiva-ratri

Giriraj Swami: Hare Krishna.

Devotees: Hare Krishna.

Giriraj Swami: It is a great honor and privilege and pleasure to be here with all of you in the most auspicious place, Sri Vrindavan dhāma, on the suspicious day of Shiva-ratri. Srila Prabhupada said that generally, Vaishnavas do not observe Shiva-ratri, but because Lord Shiva is himself a Vaishnava, and a very merciful one, so we can remember him and glorify him and pray to him for his mercy.

Today, I shall read one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Canto Four, Chapter Twenty-Four, “Chanting the Song Sung by Lord Śiva.” Please repeat.

TEXT 30

atha bhāgavatā yūyaṁ
priyāḥ stha bhagavān yathā
na mad bhāgavatānāṁ ca
preyān anyo ’sti karhicit

COMMENT

Translation by Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Now, this verse is spoken by Lord Shiva to the Pracetas.

TRANSLATION

You are all devotees of the Lord, and as such I appreciate that you are as respectable as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. I know in this way that the devotees also respect me and that I am dear to them. Thus no one can be as dear to the devotees as I am.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

It is said, vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ: Lord Śiva is the best of all devotees. Therefore all devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa are also devotees of Lord Śiva.

COMMENT

In the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Srila Rupa Gosvami defines pure devotional service, and he says,

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ
jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam
ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

There are many elements to this most important verse that is meant to guide all of us in our practice of bhakti-yoga. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ. Anyah means other, ābhilāṣ means desire, ita means in general.

Now, ordinarily, we could say anyābhilāṣ, one should not have any other desire than to serve Krishna, for Krishna’s pleasure, but the suffix, ita, is explained that under ordinary circumstances, we do not engage in devotional service for any other purpose than to please Krishna. But under some extreme circumstances, such as when we or someone near to us is being attacked in a deadly manner, one might, feeling no other recourse, pray to Krishna for protection. Generally, pure devotees do not pray to Krishna for the sake of the body or for material protection, but under extraordinary circumstances, they may.

One example is the king, the elephant Gajendra. When he was in the grips of the jaw of the crocodile and he was in danger of losing his life, he prayed to the Lord, but he prayed with a sense of regret. He didn’t want to bother the Lord with his material problems, but being in such an extreme situation of danger, he did, because he had no other recourse, but his prayer was accompanied with a sense of regret.

And Srila Prabhupada says that the relationship between the devotee and the Lord is so intimate that the devotee may pray to the Lord for some material relief in an extreme situation, but even then, the devotee feels some remorse for having to disturb the Lord.

So, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam. Anāvṛtam means devotional service should not be covered by jnana, impersonal speculation, karma, fruitive activities, and so on. Ānukūlyena, it should be favorable to Krishna’s pleasure. ānukūlyena kṛṣṇa. Alright, here is a very important word, kṛṣṇa. Now, in the Bhagavad-gītā, Srila Prabhupada has explained again and again that Krishna means Krishna. Krishna doesn’t mean something else; Krishna means Krishna.

When I was first preaching in Bombay, quite surprisingly then, I got a letter from a very wealthy man who had never met us, inviting me to come to his office to discuss. His name was Seth Brijratan Mohatta, and before partition, he had been the wealthiest man in what became Pakistan, and he was married to R. D. Birla’s daughter, so he was a very wealthy man, but somehow, he wanted to meet us and discuss.

So, I went to his office, began to discuss the Bhagavad-gītā, and he said that, “Krishna, who’s speaking the Bhagavad-gītā, is not Krishna.” He gave a very typical, impersonal interpretation, “Krishna is not Krishna,” there is one interpretation that Prabhupada criticized strongly: “Krishna’s not Krishna, but the unborn, unknown, unknowable, who is speaking through Krishna.” And Mr. Mohatta was saying that, “The all-pervading Krishna is greater than the person Krishna.”

So, in those days, Srila Prabhupada was in Bombay, and in the evening, I would come back and report to him about my day’s activities. So, I recounted the day. I’ve only told a part of it, but I recounted this very extraordinary discussion with Mr. Mohatta. And when I said that Mr. Mohatta said that Krishna isn’t Krishna, Srila Prabhupada replied, “If Krishna isn’t Krishna, who is He, Mohatta?” [laughter] And then, when I told him that Mr. Mohatta said, “All-pervading Krishna is greater than the person Krishna,” he said, “You should ask Mr. Mohatta, ‘What is more valuable to you, ten dollars in the pocket of everyone on the planet, or a million dollars in your pocket?’” [laughter]

So yes, it is our fundamental principle of hermeneutics, that Krishna means Krishna. But in the commentaries on the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Srila Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and Srila Prabhupada explain that Krishna does not mean Krishna alone. It means Krishna, but not Krishna alone. Krishna in this context means Krishna and His plenary expansions and His pure devotees. They are all included. And they give the example that when they refer to the king, the king automatically includes his form, his paraphernalia, his entourage. If we say that the king is coming, it includes more than just that individual, single person.

So, here, Srila Prabhupada is invoking that principle by saying that because Lord Shiva is the devotee of Krishna, therefore, every devotee of Krishna is also a devotee of Lord Shiva, because Krishna doesn’t mean Krishna alone, but Krishna includes Krishna and His various expansions, plenary portions, and His pure devotees. Where are we today?

Devotees: In Vrindavan.

Giriraj Swami:

PURPORT (continued)

In Vṛndāvana there is Lord Śiva’s temple called Gopīśvara. The gopīs used to worship not only Lord Śiva but Kātyāyanī, or Durgā, as well, but their aim was to attain the favor of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

COMMENT

So, this could be seen superficially as a deviation from the principles of pure devotional service, because pure devotees, as a rule, do not worship demigods, and certainly, they do not worship demigods for material gain. That is against the principles of pure devotional service. But to worship Lord Shiva or goddess Katyayani as someone who can help us in our service to Krishna is allowed, if it is done in the proper consciousness.

But we also should be careful that people do not misunderstand us and see, “Oh, the Hare Krishna devotees are worshiping Lord Shiva, the ISKCON devotees are worshiping demigods, so it’s okay.” We always have to be conscious of our positions as representatives of Srila Prabhupada and the paramparā. But internally, one can worship Lord Shiva for the sake of achieving one’s desired service to Krishna.

PURPORT (continued)

A devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa does not disrespect Lord Śiva, but worships Lord Śiva as the most exalted devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Consequently whenever a devotee worships Lord Śiva, he prays to Lord Śiva to achieve the favor of Kṛṣṇa, and he does not request material profit. In Bhagavad-gītā (7.20) it is said that generally people worship demigods for some material profit (kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante ‘nya-devatāḥ). Driven by material lust, they worship demigods. But a devotee never does so, for he is never driven by material lust. That is the difference between a devotee’s respect for Lord Śiva and an asura’s respect for him. The asura worships Lord Śiva, takes some benediction from him, misuses the benediction, and ultimately is killed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who awards him liberation.

COMMENT

Now, this dual aspect of Lord Shiva is very important for us to understand. He is a devotee of Krishna, and therefore, a devotee of Krishna will recognize him as a devotee of Krishna and approach him as one devotee would approach another devotee for help in devotional service. But others approach him as a demigod, and for them, he acts as a demigod. They approach him for material gain, and if he is pleased with them, he gives them their desire.

Now, in 1970, this is also very interesting, we were in New Delhi with Srila Prabhupada, we had just completed the first Delhi pandal at Cannaught Circus, and Srila Prabhupada was planning to come to Vrindavan for the first time with his disciples who had come from America, maybe. But Srila Prabhupada had received an invitation to Madras. He didn’t want to go himself, but he wanted someone to go.

So, I had, by then, gotten the idea that the secret of success in spiritual life was to please the spiritual master, so I agreed to go. So, a small party went to Madras. And I was preaching as I had heard Srila Prabhupada preach, not only in person, but as he preaches in his books. But in the course of meeting people, I was told there is a very pious man named Mr. Ramakrishna and I should meet him, he’ll be happy to know about me.

So, I met him, he readily agreed to meet us. I was preaching in the usual way, and he became argumentative and he said, “Actually, Krishna’s not supreme but Shiva is supreme.” So, I gave my evidence but he wasn’t hearing, and he was a very volatile type of person, and he was getting angry, red in the face, and shouting, and I was shouting back, and the whole thing was turning into an explosion. Anyway, I tried to, sort of, patch things up a little at the end, but overall, it was a very heavy confrontation without any reconciliation.

So, again, meeting people, and then again hearing, “Have you met Mr. Ramakrishna? He is such a pious man, he will like what you are doing.” And I kept hearing it again and again. So then, I thought, Well, maybe I can try it again but do it differently. I didn’t know how he would respond, but I phoned him, and he immediately agreed, because, I imagine, he was also hearing, “Have you met Hare Krishna devotees? They are doing wonderful work, you’d really like them.”

So, I met him and we were both being careful not to get into any big arguments, but again, I feel he provoked me, maybe he feels I provoked him. “Who is supreme, Krishna or Shiva?” So, we were both trying to remain cool, but it was getting hotter, but neither of us wanted it to end the way it did the last time. But it was heating up, and I knew if we kept going, he wouldn’t be able to control himself, and then I would also reciprocate in kind. [laughter]

And then, I was praying, “What to do?” And suddenly, I got the answer. I said, “Mr. Ramakrishna, I’m just a student, I’m not really good to discuss with you, but my teacher, Srila Prabhupada, will be coming to Madras in a few weeks, so I think it’s better you discuss with him.” And that was the perfect answer because we avoided the argument, and he got to meet Srila Prabhupada.

So, Srila Prabhupada came, and Mr. Ramakrishna said, “I’ve been having discussions with your disciple, and he has been saying that Krishna’s supreme, and I’m saying that Shiva’s supreme.” And Srila Prabhupada, very skillfully and expertly, avoided that question, and he said, “In Vedic culture, there are two words: puja and bhakti, or puja and sevā. And in puja, one serves the Deity to get something in return, whereas in bhakti, one serves the Deity only to give pleasure to the Deity, without any desire for material return.”

And Srila Prabhupada said, “Generally, people worship Krishna in the mood of bhakti, just to please Him.” And Mr. Ramakrishna said, “Well, wouldn’t it be possible to worship Shiva in the mood of bhakti?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “It is possible, but it’s unusual. Just like it’s possible that one can go to a liquor shop for some other purpose, but generally, it’s understood that if one goes to a liquor shop, it’s to purchase liquor and drink.”

But Mr. Ramakrishna said, “But still, in an exceptional case, is it not possible to worship Lord Shiva in the mood of bhakti without desiring any material return?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Yes. And if one worships Lord Shiva in that mood, then that worship is as good as the worship of Krishna, because we are worshiping Krishna’s devotee, and Lord Shiva will help us to come closer to Krishna.”

So, what Srila Prabhupada explained philosophically to Mr. Ramakrishna was exemplified by the gopīs, who did worship Lord Shiva, not to get anything material for themselves, but in order to get Krishna, to get the opportunity to serve Krishna. And so, we can follow in their footsteps.

PURPORT (continued)

Because Lord Śiva is a great devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he loves all the devotees of the Supreme Lord.

COMMENT

Did you hear that? Because he is a great devotee, he loves all the other devotees. So, we think we are great devotees. Of course, great devotees don’t think they are great devotees, but if we want to think we are great devotees, we have to see whether we love all the devotees. And usually, one can love all the devotees only if he is humble. Then, it’s possible. Otherwise, if he thinks, I’m a great devotee, they are less than me, unworthy of me, worthy only of serving me, glorifying me, then no.

PURPORT (continued)

Because Lord Śiva is a great devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he loves all the devotees of the Supreme Lord. Lord Śiva told the Pracetās that because they were devotees of the Lord, he loved them very much. Lord Śiva was not kind and merciful only to the Pracetās; anyone who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very dear to Lord Śiva. Not only are the devotees dear to Lord Śiva, but he respects them as much as he respects the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Similarly, devotees of the Supreme Lord also worship Lord Śiva as the most dear devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They do not worship him as a separate Personality of Godhead.

COMMENT

This is very important.

PURPORT (continued)

It is stated in the list of nāma-aparādhas that it is an offense to think that the chanting of the name of Hari and the chanting of Hara, or Śiva, are the same. The devotees must always know that Lord Viṣṇu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and that Lord Śiva is His devotee. A devotee should be offered respect on the level of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and sometimes even more respect. Indeed, Lord Rāma, the Personality of Godhead Himself, sometimes worshiped Lord Śiva.

COMMENT

Now, there is a great confusion in some quarters as to the identity of Lord Krishna or Rama or Vishnu and Lord Shiva. And it is an offense, nāma-aparādha, to consider the names of the demigods, such as Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva, to be equal to or independent of the name of Lord Vishnu. And so, people need to be educated in sambandha-jñāna, when they are engaged in kirtan. For the kirtan to have the real benefit, it should be done, as Rupa Gosvami describes, kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ, as a cultivation for the pleasure of Krishna.

Now, when Lord Ramachandra was in South India at Rameswaram, He worshiped a Deity of Lord Shiva, and some people use this incident as evidence that Lord Shiva is supreme, and they say that because Rama was going to kill Ravana, who was a devotee of Shiva, that Rama went to take permission from Lord Shiva before killing Ravana.

Srila Prabhupada said that people who put forward this theory, in effect, are saying that Lord Shiva is a rascal. Lord Rama said, “Can I have permission to kill your devotee?” “Oh, yes, yeah, you can kill my devotee, no problem.” [laughter] Only a rascal, I mean, this is Prabhupada’s explanation, only a rascal would just dismiss someone who was his devotee to be killed by someone else. The fact is kṛṣṇa mare rākhe ke kṛṣṇa rākhe mare ke, that when Krishna decides to kill someone, no one can save him, and when Krishna decides to save someone, no one can kill him.

So, during the fight, Parvati approached her husband, Lord Shiva, “Ravana is your devotee and he is in trouble. You should do something to protect him.” And Lord Shiva replied, “When Lord Ramacandra, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, wants to kill him, what can I do?” So, it’s not that he gave permission, but he did not have the power.

Now, why did Lord Rama worship Lord Shiva? So, Srila Prabhupada gave the answer that Krishna likes to worship His devotees, Krishna likes to serve His devotees. Krishna drove the chariot of Arjuna — it doesn’t mean that Arjuna is supreme, but it means that Krishna likes to serve His devotees. Krishna worshiped the feet of Sudama Brahman — it doesn’t mean that Sudama Brahman is supreme, but it means that Krishna likes to serve His devotees, worship His devotees. So, if even the Supreme Lord Himself is eager to worship His devotees, then why should not one devotee be eager to serve another devotee, eager to worship another devotee?

So, this is really the mood of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, “I’m not a brahman, I’m not a kshatriya, I’m not a vaishya, I’m not a sudra, I’m not a brahmachari, I’m not a grihastha, I’m not a vanaprastha, I’m not a sannyasi, but I’m just a servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Krishna, the maintainer of the gopīs of Vrindavan.” So, that is our actual identity.

But devotees in the conditioned state should also have a place in varnashrama. We should understand that this most important statement of Caitanya Mahaprabhu is about our actual identities. Our constitutional position means that we don’t need to have any regard for the system of varnashrama-dharma, daivi-varṇāśrama. But our acharya, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, explained that one should be properly situated in varnashrama-dharma and follow the rules and regulations of life according to that position, in order to have a relatively stable and anxiety-less situation, in which to practice devotional service, and ultimately, realize oneself as the servant of the servant of the servant of Krishna, the maintainer of the gopīs.

Now, coming back to the idea of the example that we set. When Srila Prabhupada came to Madras, a wealthy man had a Deity installation in his home. It was quite a pretty big Deity room, and he invited the elite of Madras, religious figures and also cultural figures and business figures, professionals. And there were a number of devotees with Srila Prabhupada, but the room was small. Not that small, but it was too small for all of us to fit in, so we were on the outside, sort of, looking in. And the Deity room was quite crowded, and there was shiva-lingam, the main Deity.

So, we were all looking to Srila Prabhupada to see what he would do. And so, the host passed out flowers to all the invitees, and at the appropriate moment, they offered their flowers to Lord Shiva. Our eyes were fixed on Srila Prabhupada, and he put his flowers in the corner. So then, when everyone came out, we went in and we saw that in the corner, there was a little statue or Deity of Krishna. [laughter] Srila Prabhupada had offered his flowers to the Deity of Krishna to show the example.

I mean, I don’t want to speculate, but I’m quite sure that he would have visited Gopisvara Mahadeva when he was in Vrindavan, and as he said here, the gopīs pray to Gopisvara Mahadeva. And so, devotees can do that. But as an acharya, setting the example, he didn’t offer, because they were materialists, they were probably seeing Lord Shiva as a demigod or an equal God to Krishna, so he didn’t want to be part of that, but he kept his own principle and offered his flowers to Krishna.

There was once an Austrian man named Agyendra Bharati, he became a sannyasi, and he was a Mayavadi. It was unusual at that time that a European would be a sannyasi, but he was exceptional, he was a Mayavadi sannyasi. So, the Illustrated Weekly of India, is like Life Magazine, it used to be a very popular weekly magazine. It carried an article about him and said that he chanted Shiva Shiva. So, Srila Prabhupada had taught us that if there is any article with any objectionable statement, we should write a letter to the editor.

So, I wrote a letter, and the editor, Khushwant Singh, took advantage of that letter, and maybe even sent it to Bharati for his comments, and then he published another article called “Hare Krishna versus Shiva Shiva.” [laughter] And I could just see what the editor was doing. He wanted to make it look like we were both silly, fighting over who’s supreme just like fanatics, just like foolish children, just fighting over nothing. And I wrote my understanding to Srila Prabhupada, and he said, “Yes, Bharati is a fool, but Singh is a demon.” [laughter] So, you could really see very clearly who was who and what was what.

Of course, there is so much to say about Lord Shiva and so much to say about Srila Prabhupada, so much to say about Lord Shiva and Madras, but I think we’ll end now and see if there are any questions or comments. It’s a very important topic.

Yes, Balabhadra Prabhu?

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. Thank you very much.

Giriraj Swami: Is there a traveling microphone? But I’ll be able to hear you, and I’ll repeat it. Oh, here. It’s coming, it’s coming.

Devotee: It mentions in the Nectar of Devotion about Lord Shiva and Ganesh and how he

removes obstacles from the path of a devotee in devotional service. So how can we see this in what you mentioned about Lord Shiva, in relation to Ganapati?

Giriraj Swami: That is a good question. Part of Srila Rupa Gosvami’s definition of pure devotional service is anuśīlana. Śīlana means cultivation, and anu can mean continuous. Pure devotional service is continuous, it’s not interrupted for anything else. And anu also means to follow. Like we are rūpānugas, we follow Rupa Gosvami.

So, if we are going to worship Ganesh, we need to do it following the directions of our acharya, and therefore, inquire. The only incident I recall when someone asked Srila Prabhupada about worshiping Ganesh, was Guru Kripa Prabhu. He asked Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada said, “You can, but then you have to give me 100,000 dollars every month.” [laughter] So, I guess, if anyone wants to worship Lord Ganesh, that’s the condition.

But does anyone else have any other. . .? That was my only direct [Unintelligible 00:55:52]. Any other questions or comments? Maharaja.

Devotee: Can you tell us if there was any follow up with Ramakrishna and with Sri Brijratan Mohatta? Any development of Krsna consciousness?

Giriraj Swami: He asked about the subsequent developments with Mr. Ramakrishna and with Sri Brijratan Mohatta. Well, eventually, we left Madras and we didn’t really have a center there for quite a while, so we didn’t keep contact with Mr. Ramakrishna, but he certainly ended up with a very positive experience and appreciation of Srila Prabhupada.

But Mr. Mohatta became very close to the devotees and to Srila Prabhupada. He was a very intelligent person and he liked what Srila Prabhupada was doing, spreading Krishna consciousness. And by association, he gradually started to change. He actually started to get a sense of the personal conception of God, he actually started to chant japa, although people can chant japa with different mentalities. But I think by the end, he was more of a devotee than an impersonalist. But he loved what Prabhupada was doing and he would always come and assist and be on our advisory committee, and he really did a lot of service.

But sometimes he would have ideas. He was already an older person when he met us, but he would have ideas from before, and I’ll mention a few because they might be relevant. We have a temple here and we are opening temples everywhere in India. He thought that if we invited Mayavadis, we could attract more people, and he even said that they don’t have to speak. He said that some Mayavadis just do bhajans, and because they are famous people, people would just come to meet with them. But Prabhupada said, “No Mayavadis.” [laughter]

Then, as we were getting closer to opening the temple, he said, “If you want to get a lot of money in the hundi, in the donation box, you should have the pūjārī circulate the rumor that anyone who puts money in the box, they get their wishes fulfilled.” And Srila Prabhupada said, “We can’t do that. We don’t make business with our God. We don’t want God to be our servant, we want to be a servant of God.”

But Mr. Mohatta, some of his suggestions were really, very good. And one of them was that Srila Prabhupada should include an installment from the Bhagavad-gītā in every issue of Back to Godhead magazine, and Srila Prabhupada accepted it, and he adjusted it a little and made it an installment from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but that idea actually came from Mr. Mohatta. So, yes, he was touched by Srila Prabhupada.

Yes?

Devotee: How is it that we follow the mahājanas in connection with Lord Shiva? [short version of question].

Giriraj Swami: The very beautiful contribution that Lord Shiva is one of the twelve mahājanas. And once, his son, Kartikeya, and this is described in Skanda Purāṇa, said, “There are so many kinds of worship, which worship is the best or supreme?” And Lord Shiva replied that the worship that is described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that is the supreme. Other types of worship might be recommended under certain circumstances for some temporary reason, but the worship that is given in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the supreme.

There are so many wonderful verses from Lord Shiva, but one: Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param, of all types of worship, the worship of Vishnu is supreme, tasmāt parataraṁ devi tadīyānāṁ samarcanam, but even better than the worship of Vishnu is the worship of things related to Vishnu. Or in other words, the devotees of Vishnu.

Thank you very much. Alright, I think we have reached the perfect conclusion. So, thank you very much.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. [applause]

Gopisvara Mahadeva Ki Jaya!