Appreciating Srila Prabhupada

[Part 1]

Devotee (1): The fear of death is there. We are afraid of the fear of death. When we are travelling, or when we are doing some activities, or when we are sick, that fear of death is there, even though we are hearing so many instructions. How to overcome that?

Devotee (2): Maharaja, I heard you many, many times, and the way I heard you narrating the pastimes of Srila Prabhupada, I felt that it is not just the various lessons you learned from Srila Prabhupada and the beautiful way you have imbibed those teachings in your life, but I I felt a very strong attachment and attraction to Srila Prabhupada in some of the instances that you shared. And I was really always wondering in my heart how you have cultivated such attachment to Srila Prabhupada. So if you could share how we can make our attachment much more substantial and not just sentimental based on some externalities. How it can be really substantial? Because as we hear from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada that the progress in spiritual life depends on the instructions we follow of our spiritual master. So, to follow the instructions there has to be a strong attachment to the personality of the spiritual master. So how we can make that relationship substantial? Because I see that in your personal life and I am really inspired to hear those nice words from you.

Giriraj Swami: Well, that is a good question.

Devotee: May I ask a lighthearted question? I am friends with the devotees who compiled the information for the Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta and they couldn’t put anything in the Līlāmṛta unless something was verified. So they would hear things, sometimes they couldn’t put in, but it was known that if you had the best recollection of Srila Prabhupada’s pastimes, and if they heard anything that you repeated it, they considered it verified. So, my specific question is when you started in Boston, Satsvarupa Maharaja was translating for Srila Prabhupada, the Kṛṣṇa book if I remembered this correctly. So, every day, Satsvarupa Maharaja would give a class on Kṛṣṇa book, and this was the first time you were hearing Kṛṣṇa book based on the timetable of his class by Srila Prabhupada’s translation. So, what was the feeling like, hearing Srila Prabhupada’s first talks of Kṛṣṇa book?

Giriraj Swami: Okay. Hare Krishna. So, I think everything begins with faith. Rupa Gosvami says ādau- śraddhā, and that faith comes from association. In my case,

Devotee: Microphone. If it is between your lip and your chin.

Giriraj Swami: There is a knack. Okay. So, I had been searching for a spiritual master and when I first visited the temple and got a chance to hear from Srila Prabhupada and enquired of him, he was different from everyone else I had met so far. Especially because everyone else—and there were quite a few—was more or less an impersonalist. And Srila Prabhupada was the only one who really said that we are not God but we are eternal servants of Krishna. And it was a long search. One devotee in England who had also gone through a long search and then eventually came to Srila Prabhupada commented that the children in ISKCON who grew up with Srila Prabhupada don’t know how difficult a search it was to come to him. They just take him for granted—like he is there. And of course, as His Holiness Rtadhvaja Swami often says that these young people are born in the Hare Krishna movement, but they haven’t joined the Hare Krishna movement. They have to themselves decide to join.

So, even then I was just receiving all the instructions on the philosophy and practice of bhakti-yoga and was following. But it was later in Calcutta when I had a conversation with Tamal Krishna Goswami that things took on a little different perspective. Things were seen from a little different perspective. What he said was that—and he was speaking from his realization, I could understand—that the secret of success in spiritual life is to serve the spiritual master, and follow the orders of the spiritual master. And at that stage, all the different instructions—attend maṅgala-ārati and the morning program, chant sixteen rounds, study the books, do service, distribute books, speak about Krishna—they all became seen through the lens of service to the spiritual master. And that was the highest consideration in any decision.

So now, somehow by this question, we have come to the time when Srila Prabhupada first came to Vrindavan with his disciples. Srila Prabhupada had completed the first Delhi pandal and he was planning to come to Vrindavan with his disciples. At that time, Srila Prabhupada had received an invitation to go to Madras. And he understood that there was a motive behind the invitation because, in Bombay, there was a couple, Dr. C. Bali and his wife Vaijayanti Mala who was I guess, a Bharatnatyam dancer. So, they had a large property in Madras that they wanted to offer to Srila Prabhupada to purchase. So, anyway, Srila Prabhupada wanted some disciples to go in his stead while he went to Vrindavan. And I knew that almost all the other devotees wanted to go to Vrindavan and they were attached to the idea of going, and I had this idea stemming from the conversation with Tamal Krishna Goswami that the secret of success in spiritual life is to serve the spiritual master and please the spiritual master. So, I offered to go, and a small party of four devotees went. Then, one thing led to another and Srila Prabhupada got the land in Juhu, Bombay, and we were under constant attack really.

In the meantime, devotees were going to Vrindavan from time to time, and I never went because I just felt that there are so many enemies and if I leave, they could attack in some way or another. They were attacking on so many fronts. I kept thinking—just better stay in Juhu. But after a while, it occurred to me that maybe I am exaggerating the importance of my presence in Juhu—maybe I am just thinking that things depend on me more than they actually do. Just giving myself some feeling that I was needed. So, I thought all right, so many are going and coming, so I will go for four days. And so I walked by where Prabhupada’s room is here, and he saw me through the window. But I didn’t see him, but he noticed through the window. And he said to his secretary, “What is Giriraj doing here? He can never leave Bombay.” So, the secretary came and told me, and I was so mortified that instead of staying for four days or three days, I left after two days.

I guess it was based on faith. I just had faith that yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo—if I please Srila Prabhupada, I will please Krishna.

As far as how to cultivate that, I think it was, when I look back on it, it was a natural process, but in a way, you could say it was a way of cultivating it—and that was to associate with similar people. I shouldn’t say everyone in the early groups who came, but many in the early group, were extremely attached to Srila Prabhupada, so I think I was always drawn to people who were attached to Srila Prabhupada and that also served to enhance my own attachment. Even now it is the same process—associating with like-minded devotees.

There was another exchange with Tamal Krishna Goswami. This was after Srila Prabhupada left. And he was saying that there are some devotees who feel that if they go outside of ISKCON, they can reach higher levels faster. And Tamal Krishna Goswami was very staunch in his words, that even if I have to work harder to get this perfection or whatever level of advancement to get it through Srila Prabhupada, I would rather do that than to go somewhere else to get it. And I had a similar conversation with a slight elaboration with His Holiness Sacinandana Swami. That year he was doing a severe nāma-vrata during Kartika and he didn’t have much time for anything else. But I was not meeting him often, and I wanted to have a little time with him. And so he agreed—he set aside a certain amount of time. The first thing he described was his own effort in his chanting. He said that it is like he was knocking on the door but the door was not opening. And finally, he thought that the way to get the door to open was to do humble service—selfless service. So, he decided to get up in the middle of the night and sweep the area of the kuṇḍa. If he had done it when there were other people there, they probably would have said, “Oh that is so wonderful what you are doing,” and it would have aggravated his false ego, and it would have defeated the whole purpose. And he said that it worked. He said when you are in the company of devotees, there are many ways to engage your mind, but when it is just you and the holy name and no one else, then the reality of your consciousness or the reality of the status of your relationship with the holy name is all that you see. And then many things become exposed. But after taking up that humble selfless service he found that the door opened.

And then he brought up the other point that there are devotees that feel that they need to go out of ISKCON to get higher knowledge, higher teachings, and higher realization. And that is also there in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. One of the five most potent items of devotional service is sādhu-saṅga, which is defined as sajātīyāśaye snigdhe sādhau saṅgaḥ svato vare, that one should associate with devotees who are more advanced and who have a similar affection for the Lord.

So, he was noting that some people felt that to get the association of more advanced devotees, they had to go outside ISKCON. But he said that associating with more advanced devotees can be fulfilled within ISKCON if you have that humble mood that others are more advanced than you and you could learn from them. And the differences may not be like, you go outside ISKCON you meet someone who—of course we are getting pretty old ourselves, but at that time it was—older, born in India, knew Sanskrit, differences in external qualifications, etc. And amongst us there were no such dramatic distinctions. But Sacinandana Swami said, at that time he gave the example that—and it was true what he said about me—I was thinking that he, Sacinandana Swami, was more advanced than I am. So, I can learn from him and I can benefit if I serve him. And then he said that he was thinking that I was more advanced than he was and he could learn by hearing from me and serving me. And in that way, one is getting the association of more advanced devotees by being humble. The opposite is being proud, “No one here is good enough for me, and I have to go somewhere else where I will be one of the select few.” So, I think it has been shown or proven by many devotees that by following Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, they can advance in Krishna consciousness. 

I happened to be in Mayapur recently on Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s Appearance Day. And Hari Vilasa Prabhu gave the class, and it was a wonderful class, and in the class, he really spoke about Srila Prabhupada’s faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, how that was what defined him—his faith in the instructions of his spiritual master. So that is our line. That is the example that Srila Prabhupada gave us—example and precept. And how if one just surrenders to the spiritual master—and Srila Prabhupada talks about it in his books and his letters and his conversations that if one surrenders to the order of the spiritual master, the mission of the spiritual master, all help will come.

And he gave some examples from his own experience. He was in Paris and Srila Prabhupada was coming. And they had no money. They literally had no money. So, the night before Srila Prabhupada was due to arrive, he couldn’t sleep. He just kept going over in his mind, what is going to happen when Srila Prabhupada comes and we have no money. He said, “I can hitchhike to the airport and be there,” but then he thought, How do we get back to the temple? I can’t hitchhike with Srila Prabhupada. And there was no money for bhoga, there was no money for flowers—there was just no money.” So, after a restless night, he woke up very early and he went into the temple room to chant. And while he was chanting, he noticed a brown paper bag. So, he opened it up, and as he described it, he saw more money in that paper bag than he had ever seen in his whole life. So, he picked it up, and put a chaddar around him and continued chanting. He was in so much anxiety. He said he was sweating because he was afraid that the owner of the paper bag might come back and ask for it. So, he had it under his chaddar, he was chanting and sweating and worrying. And then maṅgala-ārati came and went, no one came for the bag. And the morning program was completed and no one asked for it. So then finally at eleven, he decided, “Okay, no one is coming for it and this is meant for Srila Prabhupada’s service, so okay you buy flowers, you buy bhoga.” He hired a taxi and everything went well. 

So, he gave that as an example in his talk in the context of his talk that how by serving the spiritual master, which Srila Prabhupada showed to the extreme just by coming to America that Krishna helps, the superior authorities help.

Then he told another story that might have been 1973. It was his first visit to Vrindavan. And it was like a construction site. It was 1974. And it was Srila Prabhupada’s Vyasa-puja. So, at this program, there was an initiated disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura who had been sent to the West—to England—to preach. And the Gaudiya Math was sending a huge amount of money every month to support his preaching, and they didn’t really do much. So, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta called them back. And that devotee—it wasn’t just that he failed to achieve much, but he actually had developed a mentality that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta didn’t really understand what it is like in the West, and the approach that he had given didn’t really work and they needed a new approach, a different approach.

And so, Hari Vilasa Prabhu was very aware of that history. And it just so happened that when he came in 1973, that person was present. That person who had gone to England and been called back was present. Now, the devotee who was speaking was named Gargamuni. And Gargamuni was talking about the history of preaching in the West, and how Srila Prabhupada was the only one who had faith in his spiritual master’s orders and actually crossed the ocean and actually brought people to Krishna consciousness. And Hari Vilasa Prabhu felt very uneasy that he was speaking in such a blatant way in the presence of this person, and he kept looking at the person, and the person was very stoic—no change of facial expression at all, at any stage. Even when Gargamuni made the most powerful statements, he looked just expressionless—no change. But when he looked at Srila Prabhupada, he saw that Srila Prabhupada was smiling and beaming and relishing. And then within himself, he felt that I wish that one day I could speak like that, without any fear, and just glorify my spiritual master and please my spiritual master. And finally, after everything, that other devotee stood up—because it was an occasion, he had to say something—and he said, “It cannot be denied that Swami Maharaja has done significant service.” So somehow or other he had to come out and say something. And I feel that Hari Vilasa Prabhu’s desire that he wished that someday he could speak like that, I think that was actually fulfilled on Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s Appearance Day, the way he spoke in the temple.

Now, it just so happens that Srila Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja left his body on the same date, tithi, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s Appearance Day. And the next day, so as to not interfere with the celebrations for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, they had a memorial program for Srila Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja in the community hall. And a disciple of his, named Madhava Nanda dasa was the master of ceremony. He mentioned how Gour Govinda Maharaja had told him that he had three goals in ISKCON. One was to show that everything is in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Two was to preach to the preachers—now this is quite unusual. Srila Prabhupada had actually instructed Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja to preach to the preachers. In many other cases, Srila Prabhupada would instruct the devotees to approach new people, or even to train the new people who came. But this was ‘preach to the preachers’ because he said when he saw the older devotees fall victim and leave, it caused great pain in his heart. And his third mission was to show that you can get everything in ISKCON. 

So, he had that faith, and he realized the higher levels of Krishna consciousness—basically by following Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. Now, someone asked him that, “You quote things in your lectures that are not in Srila Prabhupada’s books, so how are you establishing that everything is in Srila Prabhupada’s books?” And he said that Srila Prabhupada’s books are alive, and by reading them, you may get some instruction or information, and then along with it you may get some inspiration or some direction to look somewhere else for more information on the same subject—for more details in support of the same principles.

And that of course depends on the sincerity, I would say. It depends on the sincerity. So, as far as this siddha-deha, broadly speaking, we can say there are two approaches. Actually, this could be a little technical and not necessary. So, someone approached Srila Prabhupada, very near the end in Mayapur. Sort of saying, “Swamiji you are going to be leaving soon. How will I get my perfected spiritual body?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Don’t worry about that, just follow my instructions. When the time comes, I will take care of it.” So, I am not sure exactly what you have in mind, but Srila Prabhupada emphasizes nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema, that love of Krishna is eternally established within the heart, and by chanting and hearing about Krishna, that love is awakened. It doesn’t have to come from some other source.

But the other day, I just read a very nice letter from Srila Prabhupada in which he was saying that neophyte devotees have the tendency to blame their difficulties on the situation they are in. And he said, “Actually, the problem is not with the situation that they are in, but the problem is within them. That they are not Krishna conscious. We are in the material world. There is always going to be dualities wherever we go. But the real thing is us, that we should be Krishna conscious.” And then he said our duty is just to follow the instructions of Krishna, and that a pure devotee isn’t even worried about liberation. He just follows the instructions of Krishna and depends on Krishna.

But yes, I would say this is the process. He mentioned sambandha-jñāna and yes, that is necessary. We should read Srila Prabhupada’s books. I think that is the main source of knowledge for us—it should be. And from that you get sambandha-jñāna and everything. There is so much in his books. Once as a very new devotee, I had heard that Srila Prabhupada had said that, “The only price that you have to pay to become Krishna conscious is the eagerness to become Krishna conscious.” This is a paraphrase of Rupa Gosvami’s verse. So, I asked Srila Prabhupada. We had just come to India. It was an outdoor program and Srila Prabhupada was sitting on an elevated seat, and I just raised my hand and I said that, “I had heard you had said that the only price that we have to pay to become Krishna conscious is the eagerness to become Krishna conscious. So, does that mean we still have to read books?” And Srila Prabhupada replied that, “If you are eager, then why would you not read the books?”

But yes, from information we have from the devotees who have approached the time of death, some of them were getting revelations as to what their position in the spiritual world was, what their service in the spiritual world was. Even devotees who may not have been prominent leaders in ISKCON, but of course they were very sincere and they were in the mood of humble service, selfless service. I think there are many examples. Many, many, many examples. 

And a number of devotees I have started to notice recently, have reported how they don’t suffer pain. I mean, they should be suffering pain according to their physical condition, but they are not, because the deities are taking away the pain, or the higher authorities are taking away the pain. So, that is a big subject, preparing for the time of death or facing the time of death, but the best way to do it is just to be so attached to Krishna that the external changes are not so significant. And it is just like that same letter that Srila Prabhupada wrote about the external circumstances, it is just a variety of external circumstances. But I mean it is natural. It is natural but if one really is fixed or desirous of being fixed, Krishna helps.

I mean this can be related to the question of pain—which is also a big question. Bhurijana Prabhu said that, “One of the problems with pain is that we label it as pain, and as something that we want to avoid. Whereas, if we just accept it as Krishna’s mercy without labeling it as pain to be avoided, then we can experience it in a different way and actually experience Krishna through it. He quoted the verse, tat te ‘nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo, tolerating the painful effects of one’s past activities, one continues to serve Krishna with body, mind, and words. So, that tolerating can involve just letting go of fighting it, and just accepting it. And so, some devotees have also reported that in that process they can experience the presence of Krishna in the pain, by accepting it and not fighting it.

Have I missed something?

Devotee: Yes, the Kṛṣṇa book. Prabhupada’s Kṛṣṇa book personally.

Giriraj Swami: Oh yes, yes, yes. Yes, very good. Well, that is true, I mean what I said about not taking Srila Prabhupada for granted because it was such a struggle for many of us to find him after looking for so long in so many places. So the same applies to the books. We have all the books. We may take them for granted and not even read them. When I joined there were two books, two published books—the abridged Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and the Teachings of Lord Caitanya. And I think there might have been some copies of Easy Journey to Other Planets from India. So, Satsvarupa Maharaja was getting Prabhupada’s dictations of the Kṛṣṇa book, which are available now, and he would transcribe them and then he would tell us about what he had transcribed, or he would read to us. And it was really a gripping story, because we have never heard any of it before. And the way we were hearing it—maybe it was the way Satsvarupa Maharaja was experiencing it and reading it—but anyway, the whole thing seemed to be building up to Krishna’s killing Kamsa. The whole Kṛṣṇa book was leading up to that. And so, we kept reading different pastimes and getting closer and closer, and finally it was Krishna going to Mathura. And it was really gripping. Of course, we didn’t have any furniture, was like sitting at the edge of your seat just waiting for what would happen. And we never knew exactly how much we had of the next installment, because Prabhupada’s dictation—he was pretty regular and we didn’t know what was coming either, so it was like whatever came it was a total revelation. And then when it came to that, we knew we were coming close, and then when Prabhupada actually sent the dictation for ‘The Killing of Kamsa’—the climax.

So, any new questions or comments?

Devotee: How do we serve our own spiritual master while living in the temple?

Giriraj Swami: Well, the way to serve the spiritual master anywhere is to follow his instructions. Srila Prabhupada told us to cooperate with the temple authorities, and I hope that most spiritual masters do the same thing—tell the other disciples to collaborate (cooperate?) with the temple authorities. The main problem comes from our minds. Srila Prabhupada discusses this point in relation to the followers of Advaita Acharya, the sons of Advaita Acharya, that there were two groups. Those who followed his instructions and those who didn’t follow his instructions. And in this purport, Srila Prabhupada related that to the followers of his Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura that there were two groups. There were two categories—those who follow the instructions and those who didn’t. And he made the point that one should not infiltrate materially concocted ideas in devotional service. That is the basic idea. I will give my own example. So, when we were in Indore, Srila Prabhupada got the latest issue of Back to Godhead, which contained an article written by me about guru—the first article I ever wrote. I wrote it in Boston, but by the time it was published, I was in India. And Srila Prabhupada read the article and he called me in and he said, “I have read your article and it is very nice and you should write. You should take up writing as your main business. So, you can travel with me and I will train you.” 

[Part 2]

Then Hamsaduta Prabhu, he wanted to begin his—I guess it was Prabhupada’s idea—World Traveling Saṅkīrtana Party. And he asked Prabhupada if he could have me for his party, and Prabhupada agreed. So, I was a little disappointed because I thought I would be traveling with Prabhupada and he would be training me. But I thought whatever Prabhupada does was the best for everyone, so I accepted that. But what to speak of computers in those days, you could hardly get a typewriter in India, so I just went out and bought some lined paper and pens and pencils, and I was going to follow Prabhupada’s instructions to write. Our first stop was I think, Agra and [Unintelligible 00:01:44], two places and then Prabhupada said they are having a pandal program in Bombay and the whole party should come to Bombay. So, we went to Bombay and Shyamasundara Prabhu was the Temple President and he was organizing the pandal. And he was dividing up the duties, and he said that I should collect for the pandal. So, I said, “Well, Srila Prabhupada told me that I should write.” He said, “You can write any time. This is the one time we can go to anyone’s office and ask for money, so you should do this now.” So, I thought about it, and I thought two things. One, what he said made sense, and the other is Prabhupada told us to cooperate with our authorities—so I did.

Then, Srila Prabhupada came and as usually happened when he would arrive, he sat down in his room and the devotees crowded in and he was smiling and beaming and glancing and exchanging little words with given devotees. And then he came to me and he said, “So Giriraj, how is your writing going?” And I was so flustered, I couldn’t speak. So, he said, “Alright, we will talk later.” So later he called me in and said, “How is your writing going?” so I told him what happened, what Shyamasundara said, and my reasoning that it did make sense that it was a special occasion—we can just go into anyone’s office and ask for advertisement. And also that Srila Prabhupada had said that we should cooperate with our authorities. But still I wasn’t sure if I had done the right thing or not, so I was very apprehensive sitting in front of Srila Prabhupada. And then I said, “Did I do the right thing?” He said, “You can suspend the order of the spiritual master but you can never neglect it.” And then he gave his own example. He said, “My Guru Maharaja instructed me to write, but I have been so busy traveling and preaching in India, I have hardly had time to write. So, you can suspend the order but you can’t neglect it.” So, I thought that was a perfect instruction. And I felt that Prabhupada understood the situation and appreciated my conclusion. So I think that sort of do both.

In the Fifth Canto, there is the story of Priyavrata. Priyavrata was the son of Manu and Narada preached to him that now he should give up being the king and renounce and take to Krishna consciousness. But Manu himself wanted to renounce and he wanted Priyavrata to stay in his position to enable him to leave. And so Priyavrata was in a dilemma because Narada was an authority and Manu was an authority. They are both mahājanas. So what to do? They are both authorized and they are giving apparently contradictory instructions. And it became so tense that Lord Brahma came to help resolve the situation. And he is also a mahājana but he was superior to all of them—the father of Narada and the father of Manu. And it was an intricate discussion but Srila Prabhupada said that one should be intelligent enough to satisfy the instructions of different authorities whose instructions appear to be opposed to each other.

Now what happened in this case was that Lord Brahma said that, “You should continue to rule because it was Manu’s time to renounce and he needs you to look after the kingdom,” which was the earth planet, “You should marry and do everything that you need to fulfill that duty, that responsibility. But internally you should be detached. In the end when your time comes, you can also leave.” So, although apparently Narada was instructing him to renounce and Manu was instructing him to stay and rule but internally, he could stay and rule and still be renounced. Or one could, looking at it from another perspective, say that he did follow Narada’s instructions but not immediately. He suspended it but eventually he followed it. While he was ruling, he was married and he was apparently enjoying the opulence of the kingdom, but when the time came, that sense of renunciation awakened in his heart and left after all. 

Devotee (1): Thank you very much for so beautifully bringing up this point of the need of following instructions in our practical situations to live our life following these instructions, but Maharaja, I have a practical problem that although you said that it begins by our faith on following instructions that will gradually lead to love for the spiritual master, an attachment to the spiritual master. But Maharaja, practically it happens that we have our attachments right now to sense gratification. In a given situation we may know that this is instruction—like in the case of Priyavrata Maharaja, since he was instructed by Brahma to get married and rule and since he didn’t have attachment to being a renunciant. He was neutral to both, if he was ordered to marry, he was ready to be married, if he was ordered to be renunciant, he was ready to be renunciant. In our case, the situation is not so similar, where we have our own wishes, our attachments and disposition. So it happens sometimes that although we know this is the order of the spiritual master but then we have some attachment which is different from the order. And that is the time when if the attachment to sense gratification is more than the attachment to follow instructions, then we give in to the sense gratification and although there is intellectual faith that my advancement depends on following instructions but because of the detachment, that faith remains intellectual and we give in to the sense gratification. So Maharaja, how that intellectual faith can actually become practical or realized faith or in other words, how to overcome the attachment based on the instruction at that time? You gave your own example of how you were allured by the situation in Bombay, and you understood that it won’t please Srila Prabhupada. It was such a strong test to the material senses, but just because you know it won’t please Srila Prabhupada. . .

Giriraj Swami: It would hurt him. It would hurt him and hurt the mission.

Devotee (1): Maharaja you could overcome the attachment based on this feeling that it would hurt Srila Prabhupada but practically I can say in my case, even if I know this could hurt my spiritual master, I don’t care because my attachment to sense gratification is stronger than my love for spiritual master. So Maharaja how? 

Giriraj Swami: To me it comes back to association. His Holiness Sivarama Swami wrote a book called Suddha-bhakti-cintāmaṇi and in the book, he follows in this regard, a discussion about Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura but he discusses how one gets the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed of pure devotional service. But one can sort of adulterate that. So, although the seed from the spiritual master was for pure devotional service, one ends up in some variety of mixed devotional service. And then he discusses what is the process to come back to pure devotional service. There are many details and categories and distinctions, but the common solution for all is to associate with pure devotees. By associating with pure devotees. one can maybe gradually but come back to the position of pure devotional service having started in that position and then having become weak and come to some variety of mixed devotional service or bhaktyābhāsa, or just different categories. So, I mean it is a matter of sincerity. 

I think it was in Vrindavan, Srila Prabhupada was discussing with some disciples about devotees who were deviating. And one disciple said that, “We have to educate them better.” And another disciple said, “We have to supervise them better.” And Srila Prabhupada replied, “Even if you educate them and supervise them, they can still cheat. If they are not sincere, they have to be sincere. If they are not sincere, they can still cheat.” And he gave the example of drinking water underwater on a fasting day. One goes to the river to take bath on a fasting day and then while taking one’s holy dip, one drinks water. He knows but still he does it. Even if there are people with him, but nobody will be able to catch him because he is underwater. 

So, the main thing is sincerity. Then how to develop the sincerity? So, Srila Prabhupada has given different answers on different occasions. One is—by following all of my instructions, however big or small. That was the one I heard first and that was the one that guided me, but later I heard another one which was—by associating with sincere devotees. My ability to follow a lot of the orders however big or small, in a way is it seems less at this age than it was forty years ago. So, now associating with sincere devotees, that sounds like a good one. And of course, that association will inspire you to follow the most important instructions—chanting, hearing, serving, cooperating. 

There are other devotees, there are other Prabhupada disciples here. Maybe we should hear their realizations. I am sure they have many realizations.

Devotee (3): My take is that Krishna consciousness is a gradual process and it doesn’t mean that if you haven’t attained what you think is perfectional stage you should start self-flagellating yourself. You pick yourself up by the bootstraps as they say and you carry on and you don’t give up. You just remain determined because we are in a material body which comes with strengths and weaknesses and that is going to affect our senses, ears, eyes, nose, and so on. So we have different ways of seeing things and it may seem to conflict with the instructions we are given but if we just keep the goal in mind, and then keep determined that “All right, I am going to make mistakes,” but the thing is that if you make mistake, you just correct the mistake and you go on. How many devotees we have had? This was a major lesson I heard when I was in Nairobi from Brahmananda, who was a Maharaja at the time and he said, “So if somebody falls down, you get up and you continue on.” So, we may not be talking about something as extreme as falling down, we just kind of our mind wanders, maybe we are not thinking of the mantra when we are chanting our japa, but we bring it back, we keep on bringing it back. We might not keep our mind on the instructions our spiritual master gave us but we bring our minds back. You were explaining that there might be some time when you have to follow some other instruction but you don’t neglect the instruction. 

Giriraj Swami: It is good. Laksmi [unintelligible] Mataji?

Devotee (3): For me the association of devotees and also sorting out in any given situation, understanding what is the most important principle that I have to take up in this situation which will get me over the hump that I am facing and kind of using either my intelligence or finding someone else who has more intelligence to help me choose those instructions which will give me the strength to get over the weakness that I am experiencing or that I might experience. 

Devotee: You will get a lot of free advice too. 

Devotee (3): Yes, you get a lot of free advice. You have as many doctors as you have friends. So, you have to choose your friends. I think that actually choosing your association is one of the most valuable choices that you make in spiritual life. If you choose your friends, your association carefully, then that will help you in every other circumstance. 

Giriraj Swami: Any other volunteers to share realizations?

Mother Parvati: One thing is that sometimes we tend to look at the circumstances we look for black-and-white situations but I find that rarely things are black and white. They are almost always multiple shades of every color—passion, ignorance, and goodness and so each circumstance requires prayer and thought and meditation. Each circumstance requires a lot of thought, a lot of prayer to move forward. Sometimes you have to move really slow, so you don’t get yourself in too much trouble while why are you figuring it out.

Giriraj Swami: That is true. We may have different degrees of magnitude—ten, twenty, thirty, forty decisions pending and you don’t want to make a mistake or there will be consequences. But you might not get the answer right way. You pray, you chant, you take counsel from the best people from for the purpose. there is one nice verse that mother Parvati’s statement reminded me of the verse. From the Eleventh Canto. It begins with yadṛcchayā mat-kathādau [SB 11.20.8] which means that Krishna said, “Having awakened faith in my pastimes, knowing that all sense gratification leads to misery but still not being able to give it up, my devotee continues in devotional service in a happy mood while repenting his inability to follow and making every effort to follow properly.” [SB 10.20.27–28]

And in the purport, Srila Prabhupada said that this is the beginning of pure devotional service. The idea is that no matter what, the devotee will not give up devotional service, even if he falls down. And then this is in ‘prīta’—it is in a happy mood, the devotee continues in a happy mood. Because of his relationship with Krishna, he knows that Krishna is his father and Krishna will always support him. It is also mentioned in the purport that he knows that he cannot overcome this weakness by his own strength. He can only overcome it by Krishna’s mercy and when Krishna’s gives that mercy depends on Krishna. It is not in his hand. It is in Krishna’s hand and so he is patient. He doesn’t mind how long it takes but he is confident that one day Krishna will give His mercy. So, he is happy.

About being patient, Lord Chaitanya had a disciple named Mukunda. And Mukunda was sometimes associating with Vaishnavas and sometimes associating with Mayavadis. So, when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was meeting with his devotees, he forbade Mukunda to enter. He said that, “On the one hand, he is offering me flowers and on the other hand he is hitting me on my head with a club.” So, I will not see him. When Mukunda heard this, he was devastated. And he said, “I will never see Mahaprabhu?” So Mahaprabhu said, “After ten million births, I will see you.” So when Mukunda heard that, he became jubilant, that “Oh, he will see me again!” Mahaprabhu is the omniscient Lord within the heart. Mukunda was literally dancing in ecstasy and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu within Mukunda’s heart understood and then he said, “Okay, call Mukunda.” So that what was meant to be ten million births became ten seconds because of the way Mukunda accepted it. So, patience, enthusiasm, confidence—all these are required.

Devotee (2): One thing I thought of in relation to this is that we have moments of weakness but in moments of strength we should make arrangements in our lives so that our moments of weakness are minimized and the tendencies that cause us to become weak, we are protected against those. So we should choose our life situation, arrange our life in such a way that we don’t we don’t fall prey to our weaknesses very easily or we arrange things to protect ourselves.

Giriraj Swami: It is very good. Very good. Very practical. Once Jayadvaita Swami and I were in Spain together and we were sleeping in the Temple President’s office on the carpet. And at night he said that, “You should wake me up at four o’clock. And if I don’t get up you should nudge me. And if I still don’t get up, you should pour water in my face. And whatever I say in the morning, don’t listen to that. But listen to what I am telling you now.” So, I think that is an example of putting yourself in a situation that will help you to really overcome your weaknesses, give you support to overcome your weaknesses. Okay, last two, I guess.

Devotee (4): Can you tell us a little bit about Gour Govinda Maharaja and your relationship with him and his relationship with Prabhupada?

Giriraj Swami: Repeat the question. Oh, can I say something about my relationship with Gour Govinda Maharaja and his relationship with Srila Prabhupada. When I first met him, I could see that he was very advanced but at the same time, I was maybe somewhat covered. But he was good at piercing through the covering. I think my most extended association came when he visited Mauritius. He was at Mauritius for about two weeks and I was with him almost all the time. And I was the senior most devotee there. But I was just starting to read the books more seriously. So, I was discussing these five most potent forms of devotional service—sādhu-saṅga, associating with advanced devotees etc. One of them is mathurā-vāsa living in Mathura. So somehow, I was mentioning these to him. And he just stopped and he looked at me in the eye and he said, “Kamsa also lived in Mathura!” That is true. And then as time went on, I saw more of the similarities. 

But the last time I saw him was actually the day he left. But I wasn’t in Mayapur when he left because I had to deal with some emergency in America. So, I went up to one of the GBC conference rooms upstairs. I think they were discussing education, but I took leave from the chairman and everything before leaving Mayapur. And he was sort of right inside the door sitting at the table. So, I saw him and I felt like putting my head on his feet, but I hesitated for a moment because there are all these serious people there and there was some controversy about Maharaja also. So, I consider that hesitation to have been—maybe not so much—but I do consider it to be a little fault. But then in the end, I just overcame that and I just put my head on his feet and clasped his feet. And he was very merciful and affectionate. He rubbed my back we looked at each other. So, I felt happy in the end. And then I was not in communication for some time. And I only really heard that he had left his body maybe two weeks later. Overall, I am glad that I did that. 

And as far as his relationship with Srila Prabhupada, I think His Holiness Niranjana Swami told a very nice story at that memorial program in Mayapur. I don’t even remember exactly what the discussion was but what Maharaja got out of it was that he is completely sold out to Srila Prabhupada. He was completely sold out to Srila Prabhupada. He could just see it. And Niranjana Swami had a question in his mind and Gour Govinda Swami answered the question without Maharaja asking it. But the way he answered it, Maharaja was convinced that actually Srila Prabhupada was answering this question, that Srila Prabhupada was speaking through Gour Govinda Swami. And then after giving that answer, Gour Govinda Swami said that sometimes the spiritual master will speak through another devotee but you will know that it is your spiritual master. And Niranjana Swami said it was like he was describing what had just happened to him.

Devotee (5): Hare Krishna Guru Maharaja. One of the last points you mentioned about, from the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about the devotee struggles to sense gratification and dependent only on Krishna’s mercy to remove that anartha or struggle. I came to think of a point, a story you related in one of your lectures that Srila Prabhupada told about the cātaka and I also felt that that story was linked to the earlier point about śikṣā outside of ISKCON and that Prabhupada has provided everything in ISKCON. And regarding that point you had mentioned in another lecture which I saw vaguely that Prabhupada’s mood was different and that even if one goes back home, back to Godhead, one may not be able to meet Prabhupada. So, I wonder if you could elaborate more on that. 

Giriraj Swami: He is made some good points here. The one about the cātaka, Srila Prabhupada was walking in Chicago and he came to a car called thunderbird. And so he asked, “Is there such a thing as a thunderbird?” So, the devotees said that they think it was named after an Indian chief who was named ‘Thunderbird’ and Srila Prabhupada said, “But is there any such thing as a thunderbird?” And the devotees weren’t aware of it and the Prabhupada said, “Well we have a thunderbird called the cātaka and the cātaka will take water only from the cloud. And sometimes the cloud doesn’t give water. It gives thunder and lightning, but still the cātaka won’t go anywhere else.” And then he explained that Srila Rupa Gosvami used this example that a devotee is like a cātaka bird. He only takes mercy from Krishna and even if Krishna doesn’t give him mercy and gives thunderbolts, but still, he won’t go anywhere else. 

So, he was relating that to not going outside of ISKCON. And then the point about wanting to serve Srila Prabhupada in the spiritual world, he is made the point and he is quoting me that it is possible—you can’t say that it is impossible—it is possible that one could take shelter of a Vaishnava outside of ISKCON and go back to Godhead but then you won’t be under Srila Prabhupada, there you will be under someone else. So, if we want to serve Srila Prabhupada in the spiritual world then we should follow his instructions in particular and then go to him. And I would prefer that personally. All right. Thank you very much for your wise questions and comments and patience. 

Hare Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! Srila Prabhupada-anugas ki jaya!

Hare Krishna.