SB 4.16.4 – Speaking about Others

Giriraj Swami: We read from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Canto Four, Chapter Sixteen, “Praise of King Pṛthu by the Professional Reciters,” Text Four.

TEXT 4

eṣa dharma-bhṛtāṁ śreṣṭho
lokaṁ dharme ’nuvartayan
goptā ca dharma-setūnāṁ
śāstā tat-paripanthinām

TRANSLATION

This King, Mahārāja Pṛthu, is the best amongst those who are following religious principles. As such, he will engage everyone in the pursuit of religious principles and give those principles all protection. He will also be a great chastiser to the irreligious and atheistic.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

The duty of the king or the head of the government is described very nicely in this verse. It is the duty of the governmental head to see that people strictly follow a religious life. A king should also be strict in chastising the atheists. In other words, an atheistic or godless government should never be supported by a king or governmental chief. That is the test of good government. In the name of secular government, the king or governmental head remains neutral and allows people to engage in all sorts of irreligious activities. In such a state people cannot be happy, despite all economic development. However, in this Age of Kali there are no pious kings. Instead, rogues and thieves are elected to head the government. But how can the people be happy without religion and God consciousness? The rogues exact taxes from the citizens for their own sense enjoyment, and in the future the people will be so much harassed that according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam they will flee from their homes and country and take shelter in the forest. However, in Kali-yuga, democratic government can be captured by Kṛṣṇa conscious people. If this can be done, the general populace can be made very happy.

COMMENT

Hare Krishna. It’s a great honor and privilege and pleasure for me to be with you here in this most divine place.

We are reading about King Pṛthu and how he will expertly perform the duties of king by upholding the principles of dharma personally, and engaging others in dharma, and he will chastise those who are opposed to dharma.

Later, in the Fourth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we read the story of a king and his wife, who left the kingdom to enter the state of vanaprastha, and within the forest, at the certain time, the king, or the retired king, left his body, and his widow lamented his departure and she cried, “Now that you are gone, who will give protection to the kingdom? In your absence, rogues and thieves will become prominent.” And she prepared to give up her own life by entering the funeral fire of her husband.

Srila Prabhupada, following the previous acharyas, explains that figuratively, the king is the spiritual master and the wife is the disciple of the spiritual master, and just as the widow lamented when her husband left, similarly, the disciple should weep in separation when his spiritual master leaves. Now, the queen being ready to enter into the funeral fire indicates that the disciple should be ready to lay down his life for the service of the spiritual master. Or in other words, if the disciple is unable to execute the mission of the spiritual master, he should rather die.

Now, when the queen was lamenting and ready to give up her life, a brahman appeared and explained that he was an old friend of her husband, and that they had been together for a very long time, and he came to give her some instructions.

And we are in that position now in relation to Srila Prabhupada, in the sense that he has left us physically, and bereft of his personal association, we need to know how to proceed.

So, the brahman appeared when the queen was ready to give up her life, and similarly, the Supersoul, or representative of the Supersoul, will appear to us when we also are ready to give up our lives, or not give up our lives but offer our lives in service to the spiritual master and his mission.

So, the king and the spiritual master and the servants of the spiritual master have similar functions. They personally follow religious principles, they engage others in following religious principles, and they distinguish between religion and irreligion, and they, in order to protect the religious principles, have to point out what are irreligious principles and distinguish between them. Now, this process takes place on a large scale, macrocosm, outside of us, but it also needs to take place on a microcosmic scale within us.

Lord Chaitanya, in His instructions to Srila Rupa Gosvami, has compared bhakti to a creeper, bhakti-latā-bīja, that is received by the mercy of Guru and Krishna, and He advises that we should become mālīs, gardeners. This is actually a good place for cultivating plants. We should become a mālī, a gardener, and plant the seed of bhakti that we’ve received by the mercy of Guru and Krishna within our hearts, and we should water the seed by chanting and hearing about Krishna. But it may happen, it does happen, that in the process of watering the bhakti-latā, devotional creeper, upaśākhās, or unwanted creepers or weeds, also sprout up, and we have to distinguish between the devotional creepers and the weeds.

And Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu explains that sometimes the weeds can appear to be of the exact same variety as the devotional creeper. In other words, maya is so subtle that we may think that something is bhakti, which is not actually bhakti. And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that these weeds, which are, in broad terms, material desires or desires for impersonal liberation, are unlimited.

But he mentions a few prominent ones; lobha, love, pratishtha, the desire for profit, adoration, and distinction, and nishedācāra, behavior that is inappropriate for devotees, jīva-hiṁsā, envy of other living entities or violence of other living entities. Now, jiva, the living entity, the life of the living entity is devotional service, and if someone is deprived of the opportunity to engage in devotional service, that is doing violence to the living entity. It’s envy. And so, Srila Prabhupada explains that jīva-hiṁsā means the stopping of the preaching of Krishna consciousness. We are actually doing violence to other living entities by depriving them of their real life. So, we have to be vigilant like King Pṛthu. What is dharma, and what is adharma? And water the creeper, and also pull out the weeds. And that can be painful, but we have to do it, it’s for our benefit.

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu further explained that apart from weeds, there is another danger to one’s bhakti-latā, and that is the hātī mātā, the maddened elephant. One can have a very nicely organized and cultivated garden, but if a maddened elephant comes in, he can uproot all the plants and completely destroy the garden in no time at all.

So, what is that mad elephant? That is vaiṣṇava-aparādha. We have to be extremely careful to avoid vaiṣṇava-aparādha. And how do we protect the garden? Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that we have to fence it on all sides so that the mad elephant of a fence cannot enter, and the fencing is the circle of pure devotees, we have to stay within the circle of pure devotees. If we stray outside, then by bad association, we can commit that most grievous of offenses, vaiṣṇava-aparādha.

So, Srila Prabhupada worked ISKCON, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, to give that association of pure devotees so that we can remain safe in our spiritual lives, and then, from that position of strength, engage others in spiritual life and devotional service.

Now, as you know, King Pṛthu appeared to fill the vacuum that was created when King Vena, who was a very demonic character, was deposed by the brahmans.

In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the saintly devotees who are speaking Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, have explained the defects in the character of King Vena for our instructions. And this is a very subtle point for us in positions of authority in the society, or even in the family, the parents are authorities for the children, how to not only set the proper example but give a proper instruction.

And although in general, we don’t want to speak negatively about other people, I mentioned  this in Vrindavan, but Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that for the sake of instructing students, the teacher may have to cite a negative example, so that he understands properly. And that was done here, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in relation to King Vena. Śukadeva Gosvami, mahā-bhāgavata, has commented on different persons who committed offenses and suffered, so that we are aware of not only what to do, but what not to do.

So, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote a series of essays that has been collected under the name of Bhaktyāloka, and in Bhaktyāloka, he discusses ṣaḍbhir bhaktir vinaśyati, the six items that spoil one’s devotional service, and ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati, the six items that are favorable to devotional service and nourish devotional service. And one of the unfavorable items is prajalpaḥ. Prajalpaḥ means unnecessary talks, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura mentions different categories of unnecessary talks. There are many, but the one that I will highlight now is talking about others, blaspheming devotees, and that is most dangerous and most damaging. He says that one should not speak about others, that we have that tendency but we have to control it. This book, Bhaktyāloka, is especially meant for sādhakas, practitioners.

So, we, sādhakas, these instructions are meant for us. So, we should be very careful not to speak about others. Of course, we can glorify Krishna and His devotees, but we should be very careful not to criticize them or see faults in them, especially if the faults don’t exist. But after giving this very thorough, comprehensive, detailed analysis of how bad it is to speak about others, he says, “If one is in a situation where one feels he has to speak about others, it is better to remain silent.” In other words, no loopholes.

But then he says, “Sometimes, even in a spiritual organization, one may have to speak about others within the organization who are not acting in ways befitting of the organization.” Someone might think, Well, here is the loophole. This is great, I can live with this, this is fantastic. But Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, “If one does speak about others while under the influence of devotional impediments such as envy, pride, hatred , pratishtha desire for position, desire for a position, then one commits an offense at the feet of bhakti devi.”

So, this is a very important warning, that we can, for the sake of the institution, for the sake of the members of the institution, point out the defects, even of a member of the institution, but if one does so being influenced by devotional impediments such as envy, pride, hatred, or distinction, one commits an offense at the feet of bhakti devi.

Now, this warning will make us introspective, “Before I speak about someone, am I doing so under the influence of envy or pride or hatred or the desire to increase my own position?” And we may not be sure, and it’s implicit in Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s instruction, that the weeds, sometimes very closely, resemble devotional creepers. Sometimes it may be difficult to distinguish between the two. So, what do we do in such a state? Well, one course is to consult an expert gardener, who can distinguish between the two. And therefore, it’s very important for us to be able to consult.

This is also guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, this is part of our loving relationships with each other, that we should have confidential friends to whom we can reveal our minds, guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, inquire confidentially. And we can even ask the person, “I’m seeing this in this other person, but is it there, or is it just my own envy that’s making me see the person like that? Or my own pride or hatred or anger?” And that friend can give us good advice that may help us see it in a different way, or he may confirm, “Actually, I think what you are seeing is there, and probably someone should do something about it.”

This is also one of the duties of the spiritual master, of the servants of the spiritual master. Well, the servants, we look within our own hearts and see if weeds are sprouting up and pull them out, and if we see something, a phenomenon that suggests it’s happening with someone else, then we should also see if it’s possible to help them. This is also a part of the society that Srila Prabhupada created, that everyone has some authority. Even at the top, there is GBC. .

So, anyway, I don’t want to focus on the negative too much here, but it is part of our duty, part of the king’s duty, part of the leader’s duty, to, as required, point out the defects. And Srila Prabhupada did it, he did. Although, once, he commented that the one thing he doesn’t like about being a spiritual master is that he has to correct his disciples, because they are all Vaishnavas and he doesn’t like to have to chastise them. But it’s a duty. He would often quote Chanakya’s maxim, “It’s the duty of the father and the spiritual master to chastise the sons and disciples, and that will make them strong. Otherwise, if you just flatter them, they will become bad.”

Once, as quite a young devotee, two and a half years in the movement, Srila Prabhupada made me the temple president in Juhu, which was a tremendous responsibility, and one for which I was, from a certain point of view, unprepared for and unqualified for. So, there was my dear Godsister Malati dasi, she was in Juhu at the time, we just came to the land, there was no construction. And we had Prabhupada’s instruction, there was a pandal, and then after the pandal program, the Deities were kept in a little home-made Shamiana . A Shamiana  is a small tent, just bamboo poles and some cloth. And it was an open land, so for the sake of the Deities, we had a brahmachari sleep there to protect the Deities.

So, quite unknown to me, and frankly, a lot of things were going on in Juhu that were unknown to me. [laughter] Anyway, quite unknown to me, Malati wrote a letter to Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada wrote a letter back to me, which contained more information that was unknown to me. But basically, what he said in the letter was, “I received a report that the Deities’ jewelry was stolen even in the presence of the brahmachari who is sleeping in front of the Deities. This is most abominable, and you must take care of the Deities the best possible way.”

And it was a really heavy letter, and when I got that letter, my mind was wheeling, as it is, it was hard in Juhu, it physically was very hard, and there were a lot of treacherous people around that we were just starting to realize, and then on top of that, these words, “This is most abominable,” it was like a thunderbolt.

And so, I wrote to Srila Prabhupada, “I appreciate what you wrote, but I’m going to really, really struggle to keep up my enthusiasm.” I’m just, sort of, disclosing my mind, there is no calculation and no conscious calculation. I was just letting him know how I received his letter. And then, he wrote back, “It is the duty of the spiritual master to chastise the disciple, not that he should always be praising them, and my only interest is that you, along with all of my other students, become Krishna conscious. So, if you find some criticism, kindly take it in that spirit. It’s only to help you advance your Krishna consciousness.”

So, that helped a lot. I could understand this criticism in a larger perspective, that it was part of my training in Krishna consciousness. It wasn’t just that he was upset that the jewelry was stolen, on a managerial level, but he wanted to elevate my consciousness. So, that helped.

Devotee: What did Prabhupada write in that letter?

Giriraj Swami: “I received a report that the Deities’ jewelry was stolen.”

Devotee: So, what’s so heavy?

Giriraj Swami: Well, that he said, “This is most abominable.” I think that was. . . Anyway, it was heavy for me. [laughter] So, that was a good way of the beginning, that when I came to Juhu, Prabhupada was already there. Then he left, gave us certain assignments, and then he came back maybe two years later. Because by then, we had built a story on top of the existing tenement building.

So, we picked up Prabhupada from the airport, and I happened to be in the same car with him. As he was driving on the land, he was just pointing out faults, one after the other, “Why is that like that?” He would notice if there was a wet mark on the wall, the compound wall, we say the dogs are passing water. [laughter] “You have to control the dogs.” “We have tenants, and some of them have dogs. Prabhupada, some of them have dogs.” “They have to keep them inside now, then if they come out, we are going to call the police.” But anyway, that wasn’t so bad. [laughter]

So then, there were a lot of palm trees on the Juhu property. So, he saw there were some dry palm leaves on the road and he saw someone dragging them away and he said, “Someone’s taking the palm leaves.” “Srila Prabhupada, they are already dry.” So, the system was that you would hire these, we call them coconut wala , I don’t know what they are proper, they were amazing, they could climb up just with their feet, so they could pull themselves up, and they’d have a knife and they’d cut down the coconuts and give us the coconuts, and we’d pay them.

So, what this man was doing is he was also cutting the dry coconut leaves and then taking them away. It just shows what crowd I had to deal with or work with. So, I said, “Yeah, yeah, that’s true, but what’s the harm? They are just dry leaves, what’s the harm if he takes them away?” He said, “Well, if he sees that he can get away with the dry ones, then he might start cutting the green ones and taking them away.” And then, baby genius here, [laughter] asks, “Well, then what’s the problem if he takes away the green ones?” [laughter] And Prabhupada said, “Well, the whole beauty will be lost.”

Alright, so this was from Prabhupada’s arrival. He was pointing out the things in the car just driving to his quarters, and then he continued it in his room. And usually, when Srila Prabhupada arrived, it was a very joyous occasion, and Prabhupada would sit and glance lovingly, and all the disciples inquired him, and he was just chiding me on all these points. And then, I thought, Why is Srila Prabhupada doing this in front of all the devotees? I’m the temple president. How’s anyone going to listen if he is chastising me in front of them? And then I realized. Well, all this was in my mind, but I had the basic conviction that Prabhupada was perfect, that whatever he did was impelled by Krishna, and it was for the ultimate good of everyone.

So, I did have that philosophical conviction in my mind that all these things are going on in my mind, “Who’s going to listen to me?” But then I realized that it’s that Krishna consciousness has to be genuine, it’s not a position, a question of persona or posturing or pretending or propping someone up artificially. Anyway, I survived, [laughter] and I think that somewhere along the line, I heard this saying that if it doesn’t kill you, it will make you stronger, [laughter] so I did survive.

And later, I learned that accepting chastisement from the spiritual master is very much part of our process. Because later, in 1976, there was a conversation with Srila Prabhupada in Juhu, and Yoshomati Nandan Prabhu asked a question, “When someone is perfect, how does he behave?” And Prabhupada detected a defect in the question, and he said, “Someone who’s perfect will never think he is perfect. As soon as you think you are perfect, you are immediately a rascal.”

And then he quoted Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, more mūrkha dekhi’ karila śāsana, “My spiritual master saw me as a great fool and he chastised Me.” So, Prabhupada said, “One should be everlastingly a fool, feel himself to be a fool before the spiritual master and be ready to be chastised by him. That will make him perfect. And if he thinks he is perfect and beyond being chastised by Guru Maharaja, then he is a rascal.”

So, we should be prepared to be chastised by the spiritual master, we should see the spiritual master acting in many ways through different persons, and within the heart, especially if we have that mood, like force, and that is really purifying and it will keep us on the right track. Maybe one last little story.

In 1977, Srila Prabhupada became very ill and he was staying in Juhu. This is up until when he went to Rishikesh, and then to Vrindavan at the end. So, His Holiness Navayogendra Swami was serving him, and I forgot the details of the incident, but I think what happened was that he brought in Prabhupada’s plate late, and Prabhupada really chastised him, and Navayogendra Swami said to Srila Prabhupada, “When you become angry and chastise us like this, we don’t even know what to think or how to feel.” And Srila Prabhupada replied, “You should feel jubilant.” [laughter] “There are so many people loitering in the street, they have no one to correct them if they make a mistake, but you should feel jubilant. You have your master who cares for you, and if you make a mistake, he tells you,”

So, I guess there are different varieties of jubilation. [laughter] But on a certain level, we should feel jubilant. Yes, I have my master who cares for me and if I’m going to make a mistake, he will correct me, and that is out of his love and care for me. Hare Krishna.

Are there any questions or comments or chastisements? [laughter] Yes, [Unintelligible 01:09:46]?

Devotee: In the purport, Prabhupada said a king should also be strict in chastising the atheists. So, I was wondering how a Krishna conscious government would chastise the atheists?

Giriraj Swami: Well, on one morning walk in Juhu, when we were walking back from the beach, Srila Prabhupada said, “If we capture the government, we will go door to door and tell people, ‘Chant Hare Krishna, and if you don’t agree to chant, we will kill you.” [laughter] So, when Prabhupada said that, sort of like here, everyone started laughing, except me. [laughter] Then Prabhupada looked at me and said, “Well, what do you think, Giriraj?” [laughter] And then he said to the others, “Our Giriraj is not violent.” [laughter] And then I also laughed. [laughter] But, I think Srila Prabhupada said things that were meant to, sort of, fire us up, but not necessarily to be taken literally.

What Srila Prabhupada said that might be more to the point in Pune actually, when we went for, I don’t know, maybe Wardha. Anyway, he said, “Whenever there is prohibition, immediately, there is black market.” He said, “Prohibition alone is not the solution. Along with prohibition, there has to be education. Even in America, they have that period of prohibition, so immediately, there is black market. Even in India, there have been efforts, and there is always black market. So, there has to be education, so that people understand why they should avoid, say, alcohol, or whatever the prohibition is, and a process of purification of the heart.”

That said, when one really is a king, like Maharaja Pṛthu or Maharaja Parikshit if their atheism takes the form of sinful activities that are beyond what is tolerable, then they have to be punished. Like Kali, the personality of Kali. He was attacking a cow, the innocent creature. And so, King Parikshit was ready to kill him. So, on that level, there is loss and there is punishment. You are talking about the atheistic mentality, how to deal with it?

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:14:04].

Giriraj Swami: Yeah. Well, that answer is, I would say, set by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu in relation to Jagai and Madhai, how Prabhupada said that in previous ages, Krishna would kill the demons, but in Kali-yuga, He kills the demonic mentality. Although there is one purport, Prabhupada comments on this function of Krishna, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, in the Krishna consciousness movement, you become expert at killing demons.

So, [Unintelligible 01:15:04] Swami, can you share some light on this question?

[Unintelligible] Swami: [Unintelligible 01:15:24].

Giriraj Swami: Perfect, that’s what I wanted to say. [laughter] Any other questions or comments? Yes?

[Unintelligible] Swami: Just out of curiosity, how did those jewels get stolen if the brahmachari was sitting there? [laughter]

Giriraj Swami: Well, we don’t know. [laughter] But on the subject of being oblivious, I’ll tell another. There are so many, I just get, sort of, distracted. [laughter]

We were in Juhu, and Srila Prabhupada had gone to Nairobi, and in Nairobi, he wasn’t eating. And Brahmananda Prabhu asked him, “Srila Prabhupada, you are not eating much.” And Prabhupada replied, “How can I eat when my property is being stolen?” So, it turns out that in Juhu, there was a collusion between the store keeper and the  site supervisor. I think they were brothers-in-law, and the neighbor. So, the store keeper, I guess, [Unintelligible 01:18:33], would throw cement bands over the wall, into the next-door neighbor’s property. And so, another neighbor knew this was happening, that neighbor was very favorable. That neighbor wrote to Srila Prabhupada, and Prabhupada knew what was going on while he was in Nairobi [laughter], and we were in Juhu and we had no clue. [laughter]

So then, he came and then he intervened. He said, “We have to get rid of the store keeper and the supervisor, another two brothers-in-law.” He did whatever was needed for Krishna’s service. There was no distinction, “This is beneath my dignity,” or, “I’m too holy.” Whatever was necessary for Krishna’s service, like the gopis, no consideration, whatever fulfilled Krishna.  

Did you have a question or comment? Question. What is your good name? Mathuresh dasa.

Devotee: Thank you, Maharaja. My question is, when you said that the spiritual master’s duty, one of his duties, is to chastise his disciples sometimes. So, as managers or temple presidents, sometimes we also have to correct the devotees, which is hard. So, where do we stand when we do that? We are not spiritual masters.

Giriraj Swami: Well, anyone in a position of authority is like a śikṣā-guru, spiritual master, so you may have to do that.

But I, again, mention Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s instruction. One should not speak about others, (and that includes to someone about the person itself), while under the influence of impediments like pride, envy, hatred, or distinction, and it may be better for you and for the person. Well, it depends on the purity of your heart. I mean, if your heart is clean and if it’s required, you could try to correct them on the spot, but if you feel you might be influenced by false ego, then you don’t want to try to correct the person when you are under the influence of false ego.

So, you might want to wait and chant, pray, maybe consult some senior about how to deal with the situation, so that when you do deal with it, it’s effective. Because if you are influenced by your pride, the other person can detect it, and that will weaken the effectiveness. And another thing Srila Prabhupada said is, “If criticism is offered with sympathy, it’s more likely to be accepted.”

So, the mood should be good and the content should be good. And pray to Krishna to guide you, depending on the situation, maybe pray to Krishna in the heart or the other person to help the other person accept what’s good for the person. Chant sincerely before and after. Hare Krishna.

Okay, last question.

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. My name is Nityananda Pran dasa.

Giriraj Swami: Oh! I know you. [laughter]

Devotee: [Unintelligible 01:24:14] and you were describing how you were the president, and Prabhupada came and in the car ride, it disappointed you when he said different things, and it continued even in the room. Now, in the current context in the GBC and temple president. And, I wouldn’t say that in all cases the relationship is also, “This is Srila Prabhupada’s representative.” So, there might be friction in terms of, a temple president might feel that the GBC may be micromanaging. It’s still not clear, but I hope you get the drift of my question. So, in such scenarios, how would you suggest for a temple president or for the majority of GBC to look at the situation or deal with it?

Giriraj Swami: That is a very good question. We need to clarify what these relationships are meant to be, because the GBC has his function, the temple president has his function, and there should be cooperation and synergy, but it will work better if people don’t, sort of, intrude into another person’s area of jurisdiction. And I suppose these things are in the process of being clarified. I mean, I had a case myself, when I had difficulty with my GBC, and I wrote Srila Prabhupada, not complaining, but I was confused, I was actually confused.

And Srila Prabhupada wrote back, “GBC does not need to control a temple. GBC needs to see that things are going nicely.” And then he said, “We are still in the experimental stage, so these things need to be clarified in Mayapur.” And then he said, “But it is not a fact that the temple president is under the control of the GBC, that is not in the GBC’s jurisdiction.”

So, I think the idea is that it should be clarified, so we know what our areas of jurisdiction are, and we work with them, like courts, in different areas of jurisdiction. It’s clear whose jurisdiction this is under. Hare Krishna.

Alright, thank you very much. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! [applause]