SB 2.3.23 – Serving the Lord and His Devotees

Giriraj Swami:

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

We read from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Canto Two, Chapter Three, “Pure Devotional Service,”

TEXT 23

jīvañ chavo bhāgavatāṅghri-reṇuṁ
na jātu martyo ‘bhilabheta yas tu
śrī-viṣṇu-padyā manujas tulasyāḥ
śvasañ chavo yas tu na veda gandham

TRANSLATION

The person who has not at any time received the dust of the feet of the Lord’s pure devotee upon his head is certainly a dead body. And the person who has never experienced the aroma of the tulasī leaves from the lotus feet of the Lord is also a dead body, although breathing.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada.

According to Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, the breathing dead body is a ghost. When a man dies, he is called dead, but when he again appears in a subtle form not visible to our present vision and yet acts, such a dead body is called a ghost. Ghosts are always very bad elements, always creating a fearful situation for others. Similarly, the ghostlike nondevotees who have no respect for the pure devotees, nor for the Viṣṇu Deity in the temples, create a fearful situation for the devotees at all times. The Lord never accepts any offerings by such impure ghosts. There is a common saying that one should first love the dog of the beloved before one shows any loving sentiments for the beloved. The stage of pure devotion is attained by sincerely serving a pure devotee of the Lord. The first condition of devotional service to the Lord is therefore to be a servant of a pure devotee, and this condition is fulfilled by the statement “reception of the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee who has also served another pure devotee.” That is the way of pure disciplic succession, or devotional paramparā.

COMMENT

So, the process of Krishna consciousness involves knowledge descending from Krishna through paramparā and service offered to Krishna through paramparā. In fact, without paramparā, one cannot receive the knowledge properly, and one cannot offer service to the Lord properly. Thus, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it says, evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2], that this knowledge of the Bhagavad-gītā was received through paramparā system. Paramparā literally means one after the other. Of course, Krishna instructed Arjuna, and that was recorded by Vyasadeva. And then, there is a line. If you see, in the beginning of Srila Prabhupada’s translation and commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā called the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, there is a list of the paramparā. You can see, Krishna to Brahma to Narada to Vyasa, up to, in more recent times, Srila Madhavendra Puri, Isvara Puri and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvami, the Six Gosvamis of Vrindavan, and then again, in still more recent times, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Gaurakishora dasa Bābājīs, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and then, our Srila Prabhupada. And now, the same paramparā is continuing through Srila Prabhupada’s disciples.

PURPORT (continued)

Mahārāja Rahūgaṇa inquired from the great saint Jaḍa Bharata as to how he attained such a liberated stage of a paramahaṁsa, and in answer the great saint replied as follows (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.12.12)

rahūgaṇaitat tapasā na yāti
na cejyayā nirvapaṇād gṛhād vā
na cchandasā naiva jalāgni-sūryair
vinā mahat-pāda-rajo-’bhiṣekam

“O King Rahūgaṇa, the perfectional stage of devotional service, or the paramahaṁsa stage of life, cannot be attained unless one is blessed by the dust of the feet of great devotees.

COMMENT

And that phrase, “the dust of the feet of great devotees,” is in italics for emphasis by Srila Prabhupada.

PURPORT (continued)

It is never attained by tapasya [austerity], the Vedic worshiping process, acceptance of the renounced order of life, the discharge of the duties of household life, the chanting of the Vedic hymns, or the performances of penances in the hot sun, within cold water, or before the blazing fire.”

COMMENT

In other words, there are so many Vedic processes, and a number of them are mentioned in this verse, 5.12.12, but one cannot attain the perfectional stage of devotional service by any of those processes. One can achieve it only by being blessed by the dust of the feet of great devotees. Now, what does it mean, the dust of the feet of great devotees? Can anyone say? What does it mean to be blessed by the dust of the feet of great devotees and pure devotees?

Devotee: I will give it a shot. It can actually be twofold. One is the actual physical dust of the devotee, where there is even a story of how one swamiji that actually had leprosy and didn’t want to accept the dust of feet, and just did a couple sprinkles, and that wasn’t enough. Then, on the other side, the dust of the feet of the devotee, just the association to be nearby, allows to imbibe and get that eagerness and desire of association with the Lord.

Giriraj Swami: Pretty good. Well, a more precise answer was embedded in the purport, and I will read it. Srila Prabhupada’s purports are very deep and compact; there is a lot of information in a few sentences or even one sentence. “The first condition of devotional service to the Lord is therefore to be a servant of a pure devotee, and this condition is fulfilled by the statement “reception of the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee who has also served another pure devotee.”

So, one must be a servant of a pure devotee, and that condition is fulfilled by receiving the dust of the feet of the pure devotee. Now, what does it mean to be a servant? It means to follow the instructions. The master gives the order, and the servant executes. So, to become a servant of a pure devotee means to follow the instructions of a pure devotee, and therefore, to receive the dust of the lotus feet of the pure devotee means to receive the instructions of the pure devotee and act upon them. That is the more general explanation.

There was a time, in Bombay, when one disciple asked Srila Prabhupada for his mercy to follow his instructions. Srila Prabhupada said it is like a man has fallen into a well, and another person is handing down the rope. Then, the person at the bottom of the well says, “Please give me your mercy that my fingers will curl around the rope.” Srila Prabhupada said, “My mercy is that I have given you my instructions. Now it is up to you to follow them.” It is like the person hands down the rope to the person in the well, but the person in the well has to hold on. The person who is sending the rope down can’t make him hold on. He can encourage him, and all of Srila Prabhupada’s books are meant to do both: give us the instructions that we need to follow to become freed from this miserable repetition of birth and death. So, he gives us the instructions that we have to follow, and he encourages us to follow. But ultimately, we are the ones who have to follow or not follow. But an important factor in that, a very important factor in that, is association. Once a disciple left the association of devotees, and then he came back to visit Srila Prabhupada. Of course, his idea was that he would continue to follow the process of bhakti-yoga. When he came back to visit Srila Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada said, “You are not chanting your rounds,” which was true, he wasn’t. That disciple said, “How did you know?” Of course, there are other ways he could have known, but Srila Prabhupada said, “Because you are not in the association of devotees.”

So, associating with devotees is very important, and that is why Srila Prabhupada established so many centers, and his disciples continued to establish centers so that people can come and have that association. Even outside of the temples, there are programs. I have been fortunate to be with devotees all the time, pretty much. But there are arrangements for devotees to get association through the telephone. There are groups, they get together, something like conference call or something, and they chant japa together, they read a verse from the Bhāgavatam and they discuss. So, even if, due to work or other circumstances, one can’t physically come to the temple every day, which is ideal, one can get that association through the telephone or through the internet. But that association is required.

There is a story, I think it comes in Aesop’s Fables, but anyway, there is a story about a father who was appealing to his sons to stay together. So, he gave each son a thin stick, and asked them to break the stick, and each one could break the stick very easily. Then he took all those sticks, a large number of sticks, and bundled them together and asked them to break the whole bundle, and they couldn’t. So the idea is that together, united we stand, divided we fall. When we are together – pure devotees; then, we can’t be broken. But individually, we are weak, and our faith can be broken, our determination can be broken. It may be subtle. I mean, you can wear dhotī and kurtā and tilaka and have a bead bag, but internally you may not really have that faith and that determination. It maybe socially you are a devotee, but spiritually, there is some lack. But that is good also, because even if you keep company with devotees, even in a more of a social, external fashion, there is hope, good hope, very good hope.

PURPORT (continued)

In other words, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the property of His pure, unconditional devotees, and as such only the devotees can deliver Kṛṣṇa to another devotee; Kṛṣṇa is never obtainable directly. Lord Caitanya therefore designated Himself as gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, or “the most obedient servant of the servants of the Lord, who maintains the gopī damsels at Vṛndāvana.”

COMMENT

So, yes. Lord Sri Krishna is the property of His pure unconditional devotees, and as such, only the devotees can deliver Krishna to another devotee. In 1971, Srila Prabhupada came to Madras, and I arranged a program for him through the Chief Justice of the High Court of Madras or the High Court of Tamil Nadu. He actually wanted to become Srila Prabhupada’s disciple, and I was meeting him quite regularly. Towards the end of Srila Prabhupada’s stay, he arranged a program for Srila Prabhupada at a grounds. There was a stage on a large grounds, and the invitees to that program were all judges and lawyers, basically. In his talk, Srila Prabhupada spoke about the Six Gosvamis of Vrindavan, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śrenīṁ sadā tucchavat. They were leaders in society, but they gave up all that tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati, aristocratic association. They kicked off that aristocratic association to join the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. And so, Srila Prabhupada was addressing them as leaders of society, that that is what they should do; ultimately, that is what they should do. 

After that program, the Chief Justice invited Srila Prabhupada to his home, which was nearby. He arranged that grounds, because it was nearby his home. The Chief Justice presented a silver Deity or statue or figurine of Krishna to Srila Prabhupada. At that time, Srila Prabhupada’s secretary, Shyamasundara and Shyamasundara’s wife, Malati, had a daughter named Sarasvati. She is still there. And Sarasvati was maybe three years old; not very old. Srila Prabhupada held that little figurine of Krishna in front of Sarasvati and said to her, “Who is this?” Her eyes lit up with recognition, and she said, “It is Krishna.” Then, he took that Krishna and hid the Krishna. And then, he said, “Sarasvati, where is Krishna?” And she couldn’t see Him. She was a little girl. So, “Where is Krishna?’ So she started looking everywhere: looking at the faces of the devotees, or looking at the laps of the devotees; the hands; looking at the furniture. She couldn’t see Krishna. And then, Prabhupada, again – Of course, now, with whatever modern technology, people’s attention span seems to be reduced, but definitely a small child of three years. . .So Prabhupada again said, “Sarasvati, where is Krishna?” And again, she became so anxious, ‘Where is Krishna? Where is Krishna?” She was looking all over the room. And then, finally, her mother, Malati said, “Sarasvati, who has Krishna?” And then, again, her eyes lit up with recognition, and she said, “Prabhupada has Krishna!” And then, she went running up to Srila Prabhupada’s seat, almost into his lap – but not that much – but, running up to Prabhupada, and then Prabhupada took out the Krishna and held it in front of her. So, that illustrated very vividly that Lord Sri Krishna is the property of His pure unconditional devotees, and as such, only the devotees can deliver Krishna to another devotee.

Now, at that stage, Srila Prabhupada quoted another verse. That first verse, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat, is from a beautiful prayer by Srinivas Acharya about the Six Gosvamis of Vrindavan, called Ṣaḍ-gosvāmī-aṣṭakam. And after delivering Krishna, offering Krishna, he quoted another verse; very significant: he rādhe vraja-devike! ca lalite! he nanda-suno kutaḥ. It means, he rādhe – O Rādhārāṇī; devike – Queen of Vrindavan, vrajadevi ke. he rādhe vraja-devike! ca lalite! – and Lalita; he nanda-suno kutaḥ – “O son of Nanda Maharaja, Krishna, where are You? Are You on the banks of the Yamuna, or are You at Govardhana Hill? Where are you?” This was their mood in executing Krishna consciousness. In other words, the mood of separation. Srila Prabhupada had very expertly used Sarasvati to demonstrate that mood of that eagerness that, “Where is Krishna? Where is Krishna?” That idea that, “Oh, last night I saw Krishna dancing,” that is like sahajiyā; sahajiyā means people who take things very cheaply. Krishna is not so cheap; God is not so cheap. So, the mood of our whole line, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Six Gosvamis, their whole mood was, “Where is Krishna?”

Materialists, Prabhupada would sometimes say their mood is like, “Where is money? Where is money? Where can I find an opportunity to make money?” They are always looking. I don’t want to digress too much, but different people go to a forest, and according to their mentality, they see the forest in a different way. A brahman or a devotee will see the forest, and he will think, Oh, what a nice place to chant Hare Krishna and remember Krishna. And a capitalist will see the forest and say, “Oh, this wood is very valuable; I can cut down these trees and make a good profit.” So, different people will see the same situation in different ways. But when we are progressing in Krishna consciousness, we feel attachment for Krishna or Krishna’s devotees, and so we feel separation from them, and then we think, “Where is Krishna? Where is Krishna? Where is Krishna?” And devotees also; when Lord Chaitanya was discussing with Ramananda Raya what is the most painful situation, the answer was given that the most painful situation is separation from the Lord’s devotee, the pure devotee of the Lord. Speaking on the Third Canto, there is a bit of somewhat parallel verse in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. But speaking on that verse, Srila Prabhupada said that just like a drunkard will feel, without alcohol, he is going mad. He must have the alcohol. So similarly, a devotee feels without the association of devotees, he will go mad. He is mad. He has to have the association of devotees. So that is eagerness, utkaṇṭha. We must have that eagerness. So Sarasvati, she demonstrated that. At that time, when she was looking for Krishna, there was nothing else in her mind. “Where is Krishna? Where is Krishna? Where is Krishna? Let us find Krishna.” And in that eagerness, Srila Prabhupada brought up Krishna.

PURPORT (continued)

“Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the property of His pure, unconditional devotees, and as such, only the devotees can deliver Kṛṣṇa to another devotee.” Lord Caitanya therefore designated Himself as gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, or “the most obedient servant. . .”

COMMENT

Servant means obedient; otherwise, what is the question of being a servant?

PURPORT (continued)

. . .“the most obedient servant of the servants of the Lord, who maintains the gopī damsels at Vṛndāvana.” A pure devotee therefore never approaches the Lord directly, but tries to please the servant of the Lord’s servant, and thus the Lord becomes pleased. . .

COMMENT

Therefore, Srila Prabhupada gave that example of showing affection to the beloved’s dog first, because the pure devotee is like the Lord’s pet dog. It is sort of common, if you want to meet some big man who is walking down the street with a pet dog. “Oh, what a nice dog you have!” If you pet the dog and everything, then the master becomes pleased. You can establish a relationship. Or another example Srila Prabhupada gave: A very wealthy man, what can you give him that will please him? But if you give his grandson a sweet and make the grandson happy, then that very wealthy man will become happy. So if we are going to please the Lord, how can we please Krishna directly? We have nothing to offer Krishna. But if we please His pet, grandson, He will be pleased.

PURPORT (continued)

A pure devotee therefore never approaches the Lord directly, but tries to please the servant of the Lord’s servants, and thus the Lord becomes pleased, and only then can the devotee relish the taste of the tulasī leaves stuck to His lotus feet.

COMMENT

So there are two pairs of lotus feet here. There is the lotus feet of the devotee, and so we want the dust of the lotus feet of the devotee. The dust means the instructions, to follow the instructions. It could also mean literally. By the mercy of the devotee, one can relish the tulasi leaves that are stuck to the Lord’s lotus feet.

PURPORT (continued)

In the Brahma-saṁhitā, it is said that the Lord is never to be found by becoming a great scholar of the Vedic literatures, but He is very easily approachable through His pure devotee.

COMMENT

Vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau. Vedeṣu durlabham, very difficult to understand the Lord just through the Vedas; adurlabham ātma-bhaktau, but He is easily approach through His pure devotee, or He can be understood through the instructions and service of the devotee. Now, who is the greatest devotee? Raise your hand, and then I will call on you. Yes?

Devotee: Radharani.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, correct, Srimati Radharani.

PURPORT (continued)

In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said that the Lord is never to be found by becoming a great scholar of the Vedic literatures, but He is very easily approachable through His pure devotee. In Vṛndāvana all the pure devotees pray for the mercy of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, the pleasure potency of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is a tenderhearted feminine counterpart of the supreme whole, resembling the perfectional stage of the worldly feminine nature.

COMMENT

So in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, The Nectar of Devotion – and I really do hope all of you are reading Srila Prabhupada’s books, because that is getting the dust of the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada in one important way and maybe most important. So, The Nectar of Devotion – It is a very important book. It is the complete guidebook to bhakti-yoga. And within that very elaborate and systematic discussion of bhakti-yoga is a list of Krishna’s sixty-four qualities. Of course, Krishna’s qualities are unlimited, but our authorities have enumerated sixty-four qualities. Fifty of those qualities can be found in minute quantity in devotees of Krishna. Then, another five can be found in powerful controllers, demigods, like Brahma and Śiva. And then, another five can be found only in the Personality of Godhead, Himself, say Lord Narayana. And then there are four that are found only in Krishna, not even in Lord Ramachandra, or Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva or any of the manifestations of Krishna; Lord Narayana also. And those are. . .Who knows what are the four qualities that only Krishna has?

Devotee: Mādhurya-līlās?

Giriraj Swami: Well, you are close, because the word mādhurya, sweet, is attached to those qualities. But, there are four –

Devotee:  Mādhurya-līlā is [Unintelligible 00:39:09]

Giriraj Swami: No, no. You are thinking of the rasas. Anyway, this is a very advanced question.

Devotee: Is it when He plays the flute?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. He attracts all living entities by the sound of His flute, veṇu-mādhurya. Yes. Any others?

Devotee: Gopī-jana-vallabha?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Devotee: Rūpa-mādhurya?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. Rūpa-mādhurya, His attractive form attracts all living entities; all the damsels of Vrindavan. And you were also close there. His wonderful associates, like the gopīs. He is surrounded by wonderful, loving associates. Of course, every form of the Lord is; Lord Ramachandra, all of them are. But the love of the residents of Vrindavan, the gopīs and other residents of Vrindavan, surpasses all other devotees’ love for the Lord. So how many do we have now? So, rūpa-mādhurya, His form; veṇu-mādhurya, His flute, and for the devotees. . .Yes?

Devotee: Is līlā-mādhurya one?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. His pastimes, the rasa dance, for example. There is no other pastime in any other form of the Lord that can compare with some of Krishna’s pastimes. So, now coming back to our discussion here, one of Krishna’s fifty qualities is compassion. Srila Prabhupada explains that Srimati Radharani represents the compassionate nature of Krishna, and therefore devotees approach Her because She is the compassionate side of Krishna. And that is similar to what Srila Prabhupada is saying here, that. . .

PURPORT (continued)

Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is a tenderhearted feminine counterpart of the supreme whole, resembling the perfectional stage of the worldly feminine nature. Therefore, the mercy of Rādhārāṇī is available very readily to the sincere devotees, and once She recommends such a devotee to Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Lord at once accepts the devotee’s admittance into His association.

COMMENT

So, Srila Prabhupada explains that Srimati Radharani is the highest perfectional stage of mahā-bhāva. Like mahā-bhāgavata. Mahā-bhāgavata sees that everyone else is serving Krishna except himself or herself, and Radharani especially has that mood. If any devotee offers any service, She thinks, Oh, that devotee is a better servant of Krishna than I am. And then She will recommend that devotee to Krishna: “Oh, look at that devotee. That devotee is so nice; better than I am.” But the devotee, of course, thinks he is not a devotee, and Radharani is the best devotee. Therefore, as Srila Prabhupada says, that devotee thinks, “Well, if I offer this flower to Krishna, Krishna may or may not accept it. So, I will offer it to Radharani, and if She offers it to Krishna, Krishna will accept it.”

PURPORT (continued)

The conclusion is, therefore, that one should be more serious about seeking the mercy of the devotee than that of the Lord directly, and by one’s doing so (by the good will of the devotee) the natural attraction for the service of the Lord will be revived.

COMMENT

So this is a very important point, attraction. Where are we attracted? So, we want to develop attraction for Krishna and devotional service to Krishna, and that attraction is awakened by serving the pure devotee, selflessly serving the pure devotee. It is the principle that by serving someone, you develop the qualities of that person. I remember the first time His Holiness Niranjana Swami came to stay with me. I thought, Oh, this is such a great opportunity, because he has so much attraction for the holy name. So if I serve him, then I can also get some attraction for the holy name. Another very important verse, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. There are two bhāgavata: the book Bhāgavata and the person bhāgavata. And so, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, that by serving the book Bhāgavata or the person bhāgavata, one gets the same result. And that is, that one develops taste, and the impurities within the heart, the anarthas within the heart, the material desires, they become, to a large part, destroyed. The Bhāgavatam says almost to nil, and Srila Prabhupada says 75 percent.

So at one stage, there was so much service. We always chanted our rounds, that was for sure, no matter what, but it was hard to find time to read, and this was bothering me. This exchange took place in Calcutta, in 1971. I didn’t say anything, but it was really bothering me. I wasn’t finding time to read. And then, on his own – I was just in the room alone with Srila Prabhupada. Just on his own, he quoted that verse, naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. Nasta means destroyed. Prāyeṣu, almost completely. Naṣṭa prayesu abhidresu, all the inauspicious things within the heart. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, all the inauspicious things within the heart are destroyed practically to nil, by regular service to the Bhāgavata, the book bhāgavata or the person bhāgavata. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, bhāgavata bhakti naiṣṭhikī. That bhāgavata bhakti naiṣṭhikī; it becomes established as an irrevocable fact. You can’t go back.

So Srila Prabhupada said to me that by serving the person bhāgavata, all the conclusions of the book Bhāgavata are revealed, even if you don’t have time to read the book Bhāgavata. It was like he read my mind, and he addressed my concern. But it should be done wholeheartedly, that is the main thing. Whatever it is: reading the book Bhāgavata; serving the person bhāgavata; any of the nine processes of devotional service; you can attain perfection by one or two or three or any number or all nine, but it should be done wholeheartedly. And Krishna says, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg 4.11], As you surrender to Me, I reciprocate accordingly. So if you give yourself 1 percent to Krishna, Krishna will give Himself 1 percent to you; 10 percent, 10 percent; 100 percent, 100 percent. So that is what we want, because the benefit is so much greater. There are ten offenses in the chanting of the holy name. So one of them, which is usually the last of them, is to not have complete faith in the chanting of the holy name and to maintain material attachments even after understanding so many instructions in the matter. So how are these two related? They are related because: Why do we maintain material attachments? We think that these material things will make us happy. It is that simple.

[Greeting devotees] Hare Krishna, Syama dasi. Please come. Hare Krishna, Bill. Please come.

So we are discussing a very important point: that we chant, but then when we chant, there are offenses. In the beginning, we just encourage people to chant, and in a way, they don’t even commit offenses in the beginning, because they don’t know enough. So, the tenth offense is to not have complete faith in the chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra and to maintain material attachments even after understanding so many instructions in the matter. So the connection is this: that we maintain our attachments to material things, because we think they will make us happy. Which means we don’t have full faith in the holy name; we don’t have full faith in Krishna. The holy name of Krishna is Krishna. We don’t have full faith in Krishna or the holy name of Krishna that “He will make me happy.” So we calculate, well, we will get something from Krishna, so we chant, but we also do all these other things on the side, because we want to hedge our bets here. We don’t want to put all our eggs in one basket. I don’t know where that came from. That was probably not a very good figure of speech for the present audience. So we are thinking, Okay, yes. I have some faith in Krishna, but I also have faith in money, the stock market or whatever the different financial products are. Now, it doesn’t mean that, as devotees, we don’t deal with the material world. We also deal with the material world, but in the mood of service to Krishna. And this is a very, very important principle called yuktaṁ vairāgya. And again, Rupa Gosvami in The Nectar of Devotion, anāsaktasya viṣayān. That means without attachment. That is a very important point, without attachment. Viṣayata, material things. You could say objects of the senses or material things. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe, the pure devotee sees the relationship with Krishna, that so-called material things are Krishna ‘s energy, and they can be used in Krishna ‘s service. And then, when they are used in Krishna ‘s service, then they are not material. They become spiritualized.

There are so many examples, but let us say the Juhu Temple. We are talking about the Juhu Temple. There is a lot of material opulence: marble, carved marble, and gold on the kālīśas. But it is being used for Krishna. Even here, they have plans, they want to make a nice temple. And Srila Prabhupada said, for himself, he had a grass hut in Mayapur. He was living in a grass hut. But he said as long as he lives in a grass hut, only a few people will come. But, if we build a beautiful temple, then so many people will come. So that is yukta-vairāgya, anāsaktasya, without attachment. If we use material things in the service of Krishna, that is appropriate detachment. And if we reject something because we think it is material, which could be used beneficially in Krishna ‘s service, that is called phalgu-vairāgya. And this term, phalgu, there is a river in Bihar called the Phalgu River, and it is very deceptive because on the surface it looks like sand. It looks like dry land, but underneath the surface, there is a whole river, there is a current of a river underneath it. So phalgu-vairāgya means that someone appears to be dried up of material attachments, but under the surface, there is actually a strong current of material attachments. And that is manifested in this false renunciation that can lead to offenses.

In the early days, in Boston, it may still be going on in some form or another, in the early days, in the Boston Temple, there would be people who came who were on some macrobiotic diet or whatever the diet was. And then they would see the prasāda. They would say, “Oh, dairy, we don’t eat dairy,” or “Sugar, we don’t eat sugar,” and in a way, they are committing offenses against prasāda. So, our preaching would be to get them to give up that sort of false renunciation, if you want to call it that, and accept kṛṣṇa-prasāda, which is a higher principle. But, yukta-vairāgya can only be achieved in bhakti. There is no external formula. Srila Prabhupada said, it is like you are under a light, and if you are directly under the light, there is no shadow. But if you are a little to one side, like material enjoyment, there is shadow. And if you are a little to the other side of false renunciation, there is shadow. They have to be right directly under the light. But again, that is why we need the association of devotees, because our nature is such that we become attached to anything. Anything that is helpful to us, we become attached, and it is natural. But we want to keep company with very good devotees who will help us in the mood of yukta-vairāgya, and who can help us to avoid falling into the trap of material enjoyment, or the trap of false renunciation.

Well, you all came in at a certain stage in the discussion, and so I couldn’t really go back to the beginning and start all over. I would have liked to, but it wouldn’t have been practical. But I am glad you came. I am glad all of you who are here came, and I think, at this stage, we can have questions and answers. That is why, whatever might have struck you, you can ask about, or if you have some thought or insight or realization you would like to share, you can also do that. Thank you very much.

Hare Krishna.

So, are there any questions or comments? Before you speak, please tell us your name.

Anjali: My name is Anjali. Because you said, from the beginning of the movement, and Malati and Shyamasundara and all these names before they were these names. I am a little bit conflicted, especially how Malati, Yamuna, a lot of the female pioneers in ISKCON, it seems like they were put in a shadow, and not given as much credit as for as much as Shyamasundara did, so did Malati, for as much that all these other devotees did. So did Mother Yamuna devi. And in ISKCON, I understand that the female pioneers, I don’t even know if there is a female term for female sannyasi in ISKCON. If our movement is about how the topmost devotee is feminine energy, what are we doing to be able to take care of the women, and even Vraja-dhāma being widow town? What is ISKCON doing to take care of women past, present, and future?

Giriraj Swami: Well, why are you particularly concerned about women only?

Anjali: Because I am one, that is for sure.

Giriraj Swami: Well, you are not. I have news for you. You are not.

Anjali: I am not a woman?

Giriraj Swami: No, you are not. You are a pure spirit soul in a woman’s body.

Anjali: True.

Giriraj Swami: So that means you are not a woman. And as devotees, we are concerned for all living entities, not just women or men. We are not even concerned only about humans. We give priority to humans because in the human form of life, one has added intelligence and one can realize God. But we try to, we endeavor to give mercy to all living entities. I am just passing it on by way of an anecdote, but one of Srila Prabhupada’s early female disciples, Govinda dasi, said to Srila Prabhupada, “Is it true that it is harder for women to make spiritual advancement?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Yes, if you think you are a woman, it is hard to make spiritual advancement. But if you don’t identify with the body, then you are equal.” As far as the social aspect to your question, I don’t think I would attempt to delve into it, because we are really here to discuss philosophy. But I can assure you that Krishna takes care of every single devotee and arranges what every devotee needs. It may not be everything that every devotee wants, but definitely everything that every devotee needs. I don’t know if you have seen the book, but there is a two-volume book about Yamuna devi.

Anjali: Yes.

Giriraj Swami: What a glorious life, and what an inspiration to us all. But, that is good. Srila Prabhupada has said just as there are men who are examples for other men to follow, there are also chaste women who are examples for women to follow. But I can say openly, I aspire to follow Yamuna devi, in so many respects, because she is so Krishna conscious. And when I say servant of the servant, I don’t think I am servant only of the male devotees. So that is nice that you have that appreciation for these early stalwarts.

Arpaṇa: My name is Arpaṇa, and I have a question. So, it appears to me there is so much suffering in the living beings in the human form or any other animal, and sometimes it looks that Krishna has designed this – everything, obviously—- He has designed happiness and distress. Could it be that why there is this much suffering? Could He see that this is too much and maybe design a system with less suffering? Or why is it this way, [Unintelligible 01:08:16]? Why not we have something where everybody just. . .or maybe He has designed that way, but then somehow or other we have fallen down into this.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is the answer. There is a place that is perfect. It is eternal; it is full of knowledge; it is full of bliss. Everything we want is there. But as you said, somehow we have come here into the material world, which is like a prison. So, you can’t say to the government, “Why did you make it so difficult in the prison? Couldn’t you have made it nicer?” Well, yes, they could have made it nicer, but that is not the point of the prison. The point of the prison is to put, they say, correctional institution. Yes. I think yesterday, I saw an advertisement for correctional officers to work in a correctional institution. So this material world is like a prison house. It is like a correctional institution, and the suffering is meant to make us realize that this place is not our real home. It is not a place of happiness. It is in the Bhagavad-gītā, duḥkhālayam aśāśvataṁ [Bg 8.15], that the material world, duḥkhālayam, it is a place of duḥkha, a place of misery, and aśāśvataṁ, it is temporary. Even if you say, “Okay, well there is misery, but there is also happiness. So I will take the two.” But even that you can’t do, because aśāśvataṁ, it is temporary. You can’t keep even that mixture, bad mixture, but you can’t even keep that mixture.

So now the question is, okay, you have seen that there is suffering here, which is good. That means that you are somewhat sober. Some people are so intoxicated with the material energy, they think they are happy, but they are not. Srila Prabhupada gives the example of the drunkards lying in the street. You say, “Come on. Come with me. I will give you a bath. We will give you fresh clothes.” And he says, “I am happy. Why are you trying to disturb me? I am happy.” He thinks he is happy because he is intoxicated. He is not happy. We can see he is not happy, but he thinks he is. So the fact that you perceive that there is suffering is very good. It is an indication that you are sober. In that realization, you should seek that place where there is no suffering. And if you want to help others, you should try to bring them to that place where there is no suffering. Because, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, these are miseries that we all suffer: birth, death, old age, and disease. And the Bhagavad-gītā says this is knowledge, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, to be aware, to always be aware of these miseries. That is part of knowledge, because being aware of those miseries we can seek a better life, not remain in our stupor, hypnotized by the material energy. And it is not that hard. It is just chanting, dancing, taking prasāda, doing service. Is that all right? No?

Radha-Madhava dasa: I am Radha Madhava dasa, and coming back to Anjali’s question, in the Tulasi ārati, aren’t we all trying to become dasi? In the prayers, we are trying to become female?

Giriraj Swami: Well, that is what the prayer is.

Radha-Madhava dasa: So it doesn’t matter whether it is male or female, we want to become female to serve Krishna. We pray, like in the prayer, that please make me your maidservant; dasi not dasa.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. But that is for the greatest devotees. But we shouldn’t mistake that the dāsīs in kṛṣṇa-līlā, or even the men, gopas, in kṛṣṇa-līlā have material bodies like ours with male hormones and female hormones. It is not that. But the material world is an inverted reflection of the spiritual world, so everything that exists here exists originally in the spiritual world. So it is true there are male forms and female forms in the spiritual world, and the best devotees are in female forms. Any other questions or comments?

Yes, Anjali.

Anjali: I have a question that. . .What was that one experience that you had that gave you that eagerness of, “Yes, I want to know who Krishna is?” When you met Prabhupada or when you met the devotees, what was that one moment when you realized, “Yes, this is for me. This is what I want to follow"?

Giriraj Swami: Well, that was when I had my first exchange with Srila Prabhupada. I did relate some of that last night, but since you have asked, I will summarize. I always had both – I think everyone does – they have the desire to do what is best for themselves and they also want to help others. So in high school, identifying more with the body, I thought the best way to help others is to become a doctor. So I was like the president of something like the Future Doctors Association. But then, when I got to college, I saw that there were people who were physically healthy, relatively, but who were suffering terribly mentally, or emotionally, or psychologically. So then, I became a Psychology major, and I thought that I could help people that way. But then, I saw that amongst the psychologists, themselves, they had a lot of problems, and I thought, This is not the solution. So then, I started seeking spiritual perfection, and I realized I couldn’t attain spiritual perfection on my own, but that I needed a guru. So then the focus of my quest was to find my guru. Whenever I heard of any swami or yogi or master anywhere within a thousand miles, I would go. But even within the university, many were invited. In fact, many were invited by the Department of Psychology, because it was a very progressive department. Abraham Maslow was the chairman. So, they invited J. Krishna Murti; they invited Swami Sacinandana; there is whole list. In the end, they invited Srila Prabhupada.

So, what actually caused the change? The change was when I met Srila Prabhupada, not at the university, because I didn’t get to really speak with him, but the next night at the Boston temple. I asked him this question, that there are so many swamis and yogis and masters, and each one advocates a different method of self-realization, and each one says that his is the best. So how do I know which is the best? And he replied very intelligently, “What is your goal?” Because I was asking what is the best means, but the best means for what? So he was saying, “What is your goal? Do you want to become God, or do you want to serve God?” And he said, “If you want to become God, that means you are not God now, and how can ‘not God’ become God?” Then he said that Krishna is God. He is always God. He is God when He is in the lap of Mother Yasoda; He is God when He is speaking the Bhagavad-gītā; He is always God. God is God; He doesn’t have to become God by practicing yoga or meditation. Then he said, “If you want to serve God, and you sow the seed of service to God and water it by chanting, then God will provide the sunlight and all the other factors to make it grow. But if you want to become God, you are only cheating yourself, because why should God help the competition?” And then, he said, “You can become godly, but you cannot become God.” That is in brief. Then he said, “So, what do you think? You want to serve God, or you want to become God?”

Now, when Srila Prabhupada was speaking to me, I had this distinct impression that he was seeing through me, seeing through the walls of the temple, seeing through the neighborhood, to my apartment in Waltham, into my bathroom. And on the wall of my bathroom, I had inscribed in very ornate, colorful lettering, in my own hand, a sign which I had kept on the wall of the bathroom. The sign said, “You are God.” I just felt Srila Prabhupada knew everything, and he was seeing my sign to myself, “You are God.” So I knew I couldn’t cheat him. He said, “So, what do you think? You want to serve God, or you want to become God?” And I said, “I want to serve God.” But I knew I couldn’t cheat him. I said, “But actually, I wanted to become God.” He said, “Yes.” And then I surrendered. Then, I knew I had found my guru. I guess when I realized that I couldn’t become God, and he just convinced me that it is better to serve God, and then, that was the turning point.

Anjali: When he could look in your bathroom.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. And so many wonderful experiences that confirmed the initial one. There was another one. Srila Prabhupada’s program, is Monday, Wednesday, and Friday evening, he would speak in the temple, and Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, he would speak outside, usually at a university. Although Saturday, once there was a very big program at the Arlington Street Church, in Boston, that I attended. So, one of the programs was, I believe, it was Boston College. It was one of the colleges in the Boston area, in the evening. Prabhupada spoke; there were questions and answers. I was always fascinated by the questions and answers, because I could see Prabhupada would give different answers to the same question according to the person who asked it. I thought that was very amazing. So then, in the kirtan, there was a dais where Prabhupada spoke, then there was an open area, and then there were the seats where the students and their professors; their staff. . .So we were dancing in a circle. And as I was dancing, I felt this love welled up in my heart, which I have never felt before. I just felt all this love for all the people in the room. And again, that sense of love kept expanding; it was like going beyond the walls of the classroom, throughout the whole area, then across the whole continent of United States, across the Pacific Ocean, and then filling the whole universe. It was like a feeling of love.

The mind, I was sort of thinking, “Well, maybe this is one of those peak experiences that Maslow talks about that I had never experienced.” It was wonderful. Up until then, I had never really approached Srila Prabhupada personally. I would attend the lectures and I raised my hand and asked questions. And once, he even came up to me after the Arlington Street Church program. We were out in front of the church, and he was waiting for the car to come, and I was there. He approached me, and he said, “You are not this body. This is a very important point.” But that time, I was so overwhelmed. I just went right up to him, and he was sitting on a vyāsāsana; higher up, and I said, “Prabhupada this chanting is wonderful.” And he started to laugh, and I knew it was ecstasy. I knew he was feeling ecstasy; he wasn’t laughing at me. His whole chest was heaving, and he was chuckling. He just looked with so much love and compassion, and he said, “Thank you very much.”

So, there were many. Maybe I will tell one last. It is actually timely, because this last one took place at the Harvard Divinity School. And just this past weekend, in honor of the Fiftieth Anniversary of ISKCON, the devotees arranged a conference, and they invited many scholars to speak about Srila Prabhupada. It was at the Harvard Divinity School, and the opening night, they had it in that same hall where Srila Prabhupada gave this talk, which I am about to mention. So, the devotees didn’t have a car, and I did. They saw I was coming every night, so they asked, “Could you drive Srila Prabhupada to the programs.” I said, “Yes.” So the first night, I came to the temple; there was no one in the temple. Maybe one person. “Where is everyone?” “They are across the street in the apartment with Srila Prabhupada.” So, I went across the street. It was like a family. It was like such a strong family atmosphere. The first devotee who spoke to me, not that night, but ever, was Baradraja. He leads kirtan and Gaura-vāṇī, a famous kirtan leader, is his son. So, he said, and I thought it was such a beautiful summation – Later, he said that his realization was that Krishna consciousness is just love masquerading as a philosophy. And that was the feeling in that room; it was just like pure love. So then, Prabhupada told all the devotees to get ready, and I was left alone with Srila Prabhupada. And I felt – It is hard to explain. I felt like every molecule in his body was Krishna conscious. It was like he was exuding Krishna consciousness.

So, then it was time to go, and I drove him. And then, at the program, he spoke and then he asked for questions. These students were quite sharp, they thought they were sharp. And so he asked, and so many hands went up. One of the students said, “You are saying that all problems can be solved by chanting Hare Krishna, but there have been other movements, even in Russia, where devotees of God were chanting the names of God. But it didn’t really make any change. Change really happened when there was a revolution.” Prabhupada said, “So, the people in Russia, are they happy now?” He said, “Well, no.” And Prabhupada said, “Then what was the use of such revolution?” And then, he said, “Even if temporarily things are better, again they will become worse.” I am not telling the whole story, but he quite efficiently dealt with that challenge. So then, another student said, “You are saying we should repeat Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. But couldn’t you get the same result if you repeated anything, like one, two, three; one, two, three; one, two, three?” And Prabhupada replied, “Of course, that is not possible. But if you want, you can try counting, and when you get tired of counting, you can try chanting.” So, everyone laughed, and everyone was and so charmed and impressed by Srila Prabhupada.

So then, someone asked one of those questions like, “Have you seen God?” And Prabhupada replied, “If I tell you falsely that I have seen God, will you believe me?” And the student said, “No, I won’t.” And Prabhupada said, “Then why are you asking this question?” One after the other, he dealt with all of these challenges. And I was just wandering amongst the students, listening to them talk about how Srila Prabhupada had presented Krishna consciousness. And then, suddenly, one of the devotees came running up to me, affectionately imitating Srila Prabhupada’s voice, she said, “So, where is the driver?” Oh my God, I have to drive Srila Prabhupada back. I forgot. So, I ran to the car. We had come to Harvard in the daylight, and now it was dark, and I couldn’t really recognize where we were or how to get back. But I thought I knew the general idea, so I drove. I know we have to go this direction; we have to go that direction. But as I continued, I got this sinking feeling that we were getting more and more lost, and I couldn’t hide the fact, because I needed help. So I was in the driver’s seat; Prabhupada was in the passenger seat, so I turned around. I said, “Does anyone know the way back?” No one knew the way back. And Prabhupada turned to me and said, “Is not the driver supposed to know the way?” I didn’t know that I was the driver. I didn’t know I had duties. I thought I was just being a good guy, and letting everyone come in my car. I didn’t realize I had duties. Anyway, everyone put together their intelligence, and we made it back. But I did feel very bad about it.

So when we got to the street, Glenville Avenue, I rushed out of the car, and I rushed around and opened the door for Srila Prabhupada, and I said, “Prabhupada, I am sorry that I got us lost.” And he looked at me with such compassion, and he said, “That is all right.” I had just seen how he completely dismantled all these brilliant Harvard students. He could have dismantled me in a moment, but he didn’t. He was very understanding. I was already convinced that everything about Krishna consciousness was perfect, but there was an added perfection, that even though he had the perfect philosophy and the perfect process, he was very kind and compassionate and forgiving. So, all of these events, one after the other, they all added up. But, that was definitely one of them. Thank you for asking.

So, I think we can end now. Not end, but move on to the next phase. Never end, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā