SB 1.8.42 – Subtleties of Affectionate Relationships

Giriraj Swami: Welcome. Krishna consciousness is our original consciousness. We are all originally spirit souls; we are spiritual beings. But somehow or other, we have come into this material world and we have taken up residence in these material bodies, and these bodies are full of suffering. Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad-gītā says janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. That one of the items of knowledge is to be aware of the faults of the suffering of birth, death, old age, and disease. We might think that the body is necessary for us to enjoy, that without the body we couldn’t enjoy, but actually that is not the case. It is really the soul, us, our actual spiritual identity. It is the soul, the ātmā or the jiva who enjoys, and the body is really just a dress.

The Bhagavad-gītā compares the body to the dress and says that just like when you wear some clothes, when they become old and useless, you discard them and put on some new clothes; similarly, when the body is old and useless, we leave it and we put on another body, we get another body. But the actual consciousness through which we enjoy pleasure and the one seeking happiness is the soul.

Our process, our goal, actually, is to get out of this material body and realize our spiritual identities. Within this physical body, we have a spiritual body, that is us. Coming back to the Bhagavad-gītā’s example of clothes, our shirt has a place for the neck, the torso, and arms. That is how the shirt is made because that is how the body is. So this whole body is like the dress for the soul, which has its own spiritual form. Its enjoyment is actually hampered by the physical body. 

Of course, I don’t know, but in our tradition we eat with our fingers, and that is actually scientific also. It is said that the digestive process begins with the fingers, but if you had gloves on and you were trying to eat with your fingers, it wouldn’t be very much fun because the gloves would get in the way. This whole body is like a glove; it is really getting in the way of our enjoyment. It is not the source of our enjoyment, it is getting in the way of it. 

In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord Krishna describes different methods by which we can come out of this cycle of birth and death, samsara chakra, and realize our original spiritual identities. One of the processes is karma-yoga, and it basically means “working for Krishna.” Then there is jnana-yoga, which means “trying to connect with the Supreme through philosophy and knowledge.” There is ashtanga-yoga, that is a process of mystic yoga, and then there is bhakti-yoga, the yoga of devotion or love. But Krishna says that He can be realized only by bhakti-yoga, and what you have experienced so far, and everything that you will experience here, is part of that process of bhakti-yoga. 

Now, Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the origin of everything, is the origin of us. Therefore, everything that we have, He must also have plus more. We are persons, we have personality, He must also have personality. As stated in the Vedānta-sūtra, ānanda-mayo ‘bhyāsāt. Well, first of all, janmādy asya yataḥ, He is the origin of everything, and ānanda-mayo ‘bhyāsāt, He is by nature full of bliss. That means that He is also a person, and He is by nature blissful, and we are also by nature blissful. But again, because we have come into this material world and accepted this contraption of the physical body, our original blissful nature is covered or obscured. Bhakti-yoga is the method by which it is uncovered or discovered. In bhakti-yoga there are various processes, but one of the most important is chanting the holy names of Krishna, which we just did, and I could see that you were relishing. That is recommended, especially for this age. 

In the cosmic cycle there are four ages that repeat in cycles, just like the four seasons, and in each age, a different method of self-realization or God realization is recommended. In Satya-yuga the recommended process was meditation, then the next age, Treta-yuga, the recommended method was performance of Vedic sacrifices. In the next age, Dvapara-yuga, that was the last age, the recommended method was temple worship. But in this age, the present age, which is called Kali-yuga, the recommended method is chanting the holy names of Krishna. And what could be achieved in Satya-yuga by meditation, in Treta-yuga by sacrifice, and in Dvapara-yuga by temple worship, all of that can be achieved at this age by chanting the holy names of Krishna.

This chanting is very easy, as you have experienced it, and enjoyable, but we want to chant all the time, that is the secret. There is a nice verse, kṛṣṇa—sūrya-sama, māyā haya andhakāra: that Krishna is like the sun and maya, this material world of illusion, is like darkness. Where there is light, there cannot be darkness. In the same way, where there is Krishna, there cannot be nescience or maya. So we want to always be in touch with Krishna. It is like light and shadow, the two exist side by side, and if you are squarely under some light, there is no shadow, but if you deviate a little to one side or the other, then immediately there will be a shadow. We want to stay always in the light of Krishna consciousness, we don’t want to be touched by darkness or what has become engulfed by it. We want to chant, or somehow or other, be in touch with Krishna at every moment.

In the Bhagavad-gītā Krishna recommends satataṁ kīrtayanto mām, to always be engaged in kirtan. Kirtan means “chanting.” Well, there is nāma-kīrtana, that is chanting the holy name, that is primary. There is also chanting about His forms, chanting about His qualities, chanting about His pastimes, chanting about His devotees. Kirtan means glorification; chanting is  glorification. We have these senses, so we want to use these senses in relation to Krishna. Srila Prabhupada says, “We want to make the best use of a bad bargain,” you know that expression. This body is a bad bargain, but we want to make the best use of the bad bargain by engaging it in Krishna’s service. So we use the sense of speech to chant about Krishna, sing about Krishna, we use the eyes to see the beautiful form of Krishna. If any of you have been into our temple, you have seen the altar, it is quite spectacular. And we use the ears to hear the glories of Krishna. 

There is one devotee who used all of his senses in Krishna’s service. He would use his legs to go to the temple, he would use his hands to clean the floor of the temple. All of his senses were used in relation to Krishna, he was making the best use of a bad bargain. 

Krishna is the origin of everything, He is the origin of us, and He comes to Earth periodically. Most recently He came in His original form of Krishna five thousand years ago approximately, and He brought with Him, you could say, the entire spiritual world to give us an idea of what life in the spiritual world is like so we can become attracted and prepare ourselves to go there. This is natural, say, you are going on a trip somewhere you have never been, say, China, India, Thailand. You will read up on the place, what are the places to go, what are the customs, how to conduct yourself, and how to make the best of your trip. So Bhagavad-gītā gives a little idea of the spiritual world, but then there is a sequel, a more advanced or more complete book called Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That gives a complete picture of life in the spiritual world, and when we hear about it, we want to go. But basically those miseries I mentioned, everything is there but not the miseries of repetition of birth, death, old age, and disease, that it is not there. Everything is there, you have a body, you have a spiritual body but no pain, only pleasure. 

So part of the process of transferring ourselves to the spiritual world is becoming free from material attachments, because those will bind us to the material world. In a sense, the whole process of bhakti-yoga means to transfer our attachment to Krishna, and Krishna also includes His devotees. There are very nice verses in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and one says, “Everyone knows that attachment to the material world is the greatest cause of bondage for the conditioned soul. But that same attachment, when transferred to the self-realized devotees of the Lord, opens the door to liberation.” So we cannot actually exist without attachment. There are some philosophers, impersonal philosophers who want to stop all attachment, but as Srila Prabhupada says, to be completely without attachment means that you have to be like a stone, and we don’t want to become stones. We don’t want to be without attachment, but we don’t want to be attached to things that cause us pain, suffering, and bondage. We want to become attached to things that liberate us, and that means Krishna and His devotees. 

When Krishna comes to Earth, He sort of brings a replica of life in the spiritual world. There are differences but He gives an idea, especially in Vrindavan. But Krishna also has other residences, and you can go to any section that you like. One section is called Mathura, one is called Dvaraka, Hastinapura. So when Krishna comes, He has relationships. I mean, we have relationships so obviously He has everything that we have plus more. He has relationships, but His relationships are with His pure devotees. He has interactions with others, but His loving relationships are with pure devotees. And one of the pure devotees is a lady-–they have many pure devotees who are ladies, but the subject of tonight’s reading is a section of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam called “Prayers of Queen Kuntī.” And Queen Kunti, in Krishna’s familial relationships—of course, He is unborn, He is eternal, but He plays the role of a son, of a friend, and a lover. 

In this configuration, Krishna has a father named Vasudeva, and Vasudeva has a sister named Kunti. Kunti is considered Krishna’s maternal aunt. In that sense she is like an elder or a superior, but she was aware that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are many events in the life of Krishna when He appeared on Earth, but it so happened that at a certain stage, Krishna was in Hastinapura with Kunti and others, and after being with them, He was going to leave and go back to His capital of Dvaraka. Just as He was about to leave, Kunti approached Him while He was on His chariot, and she offered these very feeling prayers of appreciation and gratitude for all that Krishna had done for her and her sons, the Pandavas. These prayers were very special to our spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada. 

In fact, one of Srila Prabhupada’s very early and devoted disciples, Brahmananda Prabhu, wrote an article in our Back to Godhead magazine called “Queen Kunti’s prayers and Srila Prabhupada’s triumph over adversity” describing how, in so many cases, when Srila Prabhupada was in difficult situations, he took shelter of Queen Kunti’s prayers. He would recite them or he would have his disciples recite them. Because that is the nature of the material world, it is the world of duality, there is always going to be so-called good and so-called bad. There is going to be adversity, we are not utopian dreamers who think that life is going to be a bowl of cherries. 

When I was studying in the university, I was a psychology major, and one of the books we read– this is actually a very well written book, it was called I Never Promised You A Rose Garden. It is about a psychotherapist who was bringing a client out of schizophrenia into reality. The title, I Never Promised You A Rose Garden, says that facing reality means that it is not going to be a rose garden, but we have to face reality, we have to live in reality. And then from this reality, clear perception of this reality, we go to the real reality, the eternal reality. 

Queen Kunti and her sons, the Pandavas, were put through many trials and tribulations, it is quite a story. In fact, there is a whole scripture called the Mahābhārata, and the Bhagavad-gītā is just one part of the Mahābhārata that describes the whole history of these five brothers, the five sons of Queen Kunti. At every step Krishna helped them, although they were persecuted, cheated, tortured, and subject to so many threatening situations, Krishna was always there to protect them. In her prayers, Queen Kunti makes this quite extraordinary statement that when we were facing all sorts of– she is praying to Krishna, remember He is on His chariot, He is about to leave and she stops the chariot and she offers Him these prayers. She says, “When we were in difficulty, You were always there with us, and now that the battle of Kurukshetra is over and now that my sons have been properly instated as the rulers, now You are leaving us. I wish that those calamities may come again and again, because in those calamities, we could see You. And seeing You means we never have to see the repetition of birth and death.” 

That is quite an extraordinary statement, but that was her experience, and that is the preference of any devotee. They would rather be, just putting it in this language, but they would rather be in hell with Krishna than in heaven without Krishna, because hell with Krishna means you are not in hell, you are beyond heaven, you are in Vaikuntha, you are in the spiritual world. And heaven without Krishna is hell, there is no Krishna. She said, “May those calamities come again and again, because in the midst of those calamities we saw You, and by seeing You, we never have to see the repetition of birth and death.” 

She made many prayers, and towards the end of her prayers, she prayed, “Just as the Ganges river flows without impediment into the sea, similarly, let my love flow to you without being diverted to anyone else.” There is a very proper definition of love, not what we call love in the material world, but love of Krishna. True love is really only in relationship to Krishna, it is reposed fully in Him. 

Such a statement might raise a question, what about loving—of course, loving Krishna’s devotees it is given because Krishna includes His devotees, He is not separate from His devotees, but what about other people like our family members? In Srila Prabhupada’s purport to this verse, “Let my love flow without hindrance like the Ganges,” Srila Prabhupada discusses the subtle and intricate points. I will read that and discuss it. This coincidentally is a favorite verse of His Holiness Ṛtadhvaja Swami and we have discussed it on many occasions. We will recite a small mantra of invocation before we read. You can do this, please repeat after me. Well, I will do one word at a time, just as practice, then we will do it all at once. 

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya,

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya,

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya,

Excellent. This is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Canto One, Chapter Eight, “Prayers by Queen Kuntī,” Text Forty-two. You can repeat after me, this is the system that our Guru Maharaja, our spiritual master introduces, it is very interactive. 

TEXT 42

tvayi me ‘nanya-viṣayā

matir madhu-pate ‘sakṛt

ratim udvahatād addhā

gaṅgevaugham udanvati

We say the verse twice. I see some of you are finding it on your electronic devices, so then we can be responsive.

TRANSLATION

O Lord of Madhu, as the Ganges forever flows to the sea without hindrance, let my attraction be constantly drawn unto You without being diverted to anyone else.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

Perfection of pure devotional service is attained when all attention is diverted towards the transcendental loving service of the Lord. To cut off the tie of all other affections does not mean complete negation of the finer elements, like affection for someone else. 

COMMENT

Straight away Srila Prabhupada is highlighting an apparent contradiction or paradox, because Queen Kunti is praying, “Let my affection be drawn to you without being diverted to anyone else.” Srila Prabhupada is saying, that is the perfection, but that does not mean negating the finer sentiments like affection for others. So how do we reconcile these two apparently opposing statements? 

PURPORT (continued)

Perfection of pure devotional service is attained when all attention is diverted towards the transcendental loving service of the Lord. To cut off the tie of all other affections does not mean complete negation of the finer elements, like affection for someone else. This is not possible. A living being, whoever he may be, must have this feeling of affection for others because this is a symptom of life. The symptoms of life, such as desire, anger, hankerings, feelings of attraction, etc., cannot be annihilated. Only the objective has to be changed. Desire cannot be negated, but in devotional service the desire is changed only for the service of the Lord in place of desire for sense gratification. The so-called affection for family, society, country, etc., consists of different phases of sense gratification. When this desire is changed for the satisfaction of the Lord, it is called devotional service.

COMMENT

This is really the crux of the matter, that we cannot negate desire. There are impersonalists who try to do that unsuccessfully, but we don’t try to negate desire. We change the desire from desiring sense gratification to desiring Krishna’s satisfaction. Sense gratification, we discussed this, the body is made of senses, but again, the real senses are in the spiritual body, this is the covering of the spiritual senses. Just like some of us see through eyeglasses, but the eyeglasses are not seeing, the eye is seeing through the eyeglasses. Similarly, the spiritual senses are perceiving through the material senses. Otherwise, when the soul leaves the body, all the sense organs are there, but there is no perception because the real perception takes place in the spiritual senses, in the spiritual body. 

When Srila Prabhupada talks about sense gratification, he means the effort to gratify the senses of this body. And there is sort of direct sense gratification, personal sense gratification, and then there is extended sense gratification. “I want to enjoy something myself, but I don’t want to enjoy it all alone, so I want to enjoy it with my family.” That is extended sense gratification. “I don’t want to go to the zoo alone, I want to go with my family.” 

I am mentioning the zoo because some devotees were going to take their kids to the zoo, and by the way, I said it was all right. Anything can be all right if done in Krishna consciousness, and I think even at the zoo they would be Krishna conscious. One of our devotees works in the gift shop at the zoo too. That is extended sense gratification. The thing is I don’t want to use gross examples because they are too contaminating, but you can think of them yourself. Things that a family can do together in the line of sense gratification, which is sinful, against the laws of God, against our best interests. There is limited and extended sense gratification. And all these isms, altruism, humanism, communism, there are so many isms, but they are all different phases and manifestations of sense gratification. There is no Krishna consciousness in any of them. 

Opposed to that, is the desire for Krishna’s satisfaction, and that can be done very congenitally with family members and friends. When I was growing up we used to hear this saying that “The family that prays together stays together.” So we can chant together, we can do all the activities of devotional service together. That is very congenial. 

The so-called affection for family, society, country, etc., consists of different phases of sense gratification. When this desire is changed for the satisfaction of the Lord, it is called devotional service or bhakti-yoga.

PURPORT (continued)

In the Bhagavad-gītā we can see that Arjuna desired not to fight with his brothers and relations just to satisfy his own personal desires.

COMMENT

Well, that is the setting of the Bhagavad-gītā, but the whole Bhagavad-gītā takes place on the battlefield of Kurukshetra. I didn’t explain in detail, but Kunti and her five sons, the Pandavas, who were compelled to fight against the Kauravas, were actually cousins. But the Kauravas were very bad people and were trying to usurp the Pandavas rightful claim to the kingdom. So the armies gathered on both sides and it was a huge array because it was like the world war. The Kauravas had all their armies and their allies with them, and the Pandavas had their allies with them. A huge world war was about to take place. 

When Arjuna saw his cousins on the other side—and not just his cousins, there were also teachers because they were cousins, they were all one family so they had the same teachers. And they have a very affectionate and respectful relationship with their teachers and gurus. So Arjuna said, “These are my cousins, they are like my brothers, and my teachers. My superiors, who taught me warfare, taught me archery. How can I fight against them?” So he told Krishna, “No, I shall not fight” and he put down his bows and arrows. 

Now, that from the material point of view sounds very good. He didn’t want to fight to get the kingdom for himself, he said “Let them enjoy. It is ours, but if they want to cheat us out of it, all right, let them cheat us out of it. It is not worth fighting over.” But the defect in Arjuna’s mentality is that he was thinking of himself, what would make him happy. He wasn’t thinking of what would make Krishna happy, and Krishna wanted them to fight for the interest of the world, He wanted His devotees to rule because they would rule with the best interest of the citizens. He didn’t want these corrupt, selfish, and egoistic people to rule. From the material point of view, Arjuna seems like a very noble person, but from the spiritual point of view, he was thinking of his own happiness. He was not thinking of Krishna’s happiness, and that was his defect. 

PURPORT (continued)

In the Bhagavad-gītā we can see that Arjuna desired not to fight with his brothers and relations just to satisfy his own personal desires. But when he heard the message of the Lord, Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, he changed his decision and served the Lord. And for his doing so, he became a famous devotee of the Lord, for it is declared in all the scriptures that Arjuna attained spiritual perfection by devotional service to the Lord in friendship. The fighting was there, the friendship was there, Arjuna was there, and Kṛṣṇa was there, but Arjuna became a different person by devotional service. 

COMMENT

You don’t actually give up anything, if it can be used in Krishna’s service. Almost anything can be used, you just change the purpose. Prabhupada said, “The account is there, the money is there, the interest being earned is there, everything is there. You just have to change the name on the account. It is not my account anymore; it is Krishna’s account.”

PURPORT (continued)

Therefore, the prayers of Kuntī also indicate the same categorical changes in activities. Śrīmatī Kuntī wanted to serve the Lord without diversion, and that was her prayer. This unalloyed devotion is the ultimate goal of life.

COMMENT

Prabhupada said it in the first sentence, “This is the perfection of life.”

PURPORT (continued)

Our attention is usually diverted to the service of something which is nongodly or not in the program of the Lord. When the program is changed into the service of the Lord, that is to say when the senses are purified in relation with the service of the Lord, it is called pure unalloyed devotional service. Śrīmatī Kuntīdevī wanted that perfection and prayed for it from the Lord.

COMMENT

Now we come to the last paragraph, which brings up these very subtle and intricate points, which led to the title of today’s talk, “The subtleties of affectionate relationships.” 

PURPORT (continued)

Kuntīdevī’s affection for the Pāṇḍavas and the Vṛṣṇis is not out of the range of devotional service because the service of the Lord and the service of the devotees are identical.

COMMENT

In another verse she prays directly, “Please sever my ties of affection for my family members, the Pandavas and the Vṛṣṇis.” But those family members were devotees, and we have been repeatedly saying that the Lord is not alone. He is with His devotees in the service of the Lord, and the service of the Lord includes the service of the devotees. Sometimes the service of the devotees is more efficacious than the service of the Lord. So what does that mean that she is praying for her ties of affection for her kinsmen to be severed when her kinsmen are devotees? 

PURPORT (continued)

Her affection for the Pāṇḍavas and the Vṛṣṇis is not out of the range of devotional service because the service of the Lord and the service of the devotees are identical. Sometimes service to the devotee is more valuable than service to the Lord. But here the affection of Kuntīdevī for the Pāṇḍavas and the Vṛṣṇis was due to family relation. This tie of affection in terms of material relation is the relation of māyā because the relations of the body or the mind are due to the influence of the external energy.

COMMENT

All of us here, and even people who are here for the first time, before you leave, you will have established some sort of relationship with one, two, or more of the people in this room. That relationship, depending on how we conduct it, can be spiritual based on Krishna, or it can be material based on the body. And often our relationships, unless we are beyond that, but often our relationships have both elements to them; a spiritual dimension based on Krishna consciousness and the material dimension based on the body and the desire for sense gratification. 

When Kunti prays that her ties of affection for her two families, the Pandavas and the Vṛṣṇis, to be severed, what she is really praying for is that the material side of the relationship, which is based on the body, that tie of affection should be severed. This is something for us all to work on in our relationships, to emphasize the spiritual relationship and minimize the material side. Not that it is bad, but it is not as blissful and it is not as harmonious. 

One member of the community, some time ago, I don’t know about the situation now, but he told me that whenever he and his wife would discuss what to do for their sense gratification, they would always quarrel. If they had to discuss what television show to watch, they would always end up fighting, but when it came to devotional service, they always agreed on everything. And to me that was a really vivid example of how when Krishna and Krishna’s pleasure are at the center, our relationships are harmonious. And since [57:10 unintelligible] I am thinking of myself, “I want to watch this show,” and the other one is thinking of himself, “I want to watch that one,” and there is conflict. 

PURPORT (continued)

Relations of the soul, established in relation with the Supreme Soul, are factual relations. When Kuntīdevī wanted to cut off the family relation, she meant to cut off the relation of the skin. The skin relation is the cause of material bondage, but the relation of the soul is the cause of freedom. This relation of the soul to the soul can be established by the medium of the relation with the Supersoul. 

COMMENT

This situation applies to each and every one of us to some degree or another. We have a choice in our relationships, whether to have Krishna at the center. And that means we are relating soul to soul, which are our actual identities, relating soul to soul through the medium of the Supersoul or the Supreme soul. If we rely on the basis of the body, then it is my sense of gratification versus your sense of gratification. May the best man win [Laughter].

PURPORT (continued)

This relation of the soul to the soul can be established by the medium of the relation with the Supersoul. Seeing in the darkness is not seeing.

COMMENT

And we discussed that, kṛṣṇa—sūrya-sama; māyā haya andhakāra, Krishna is light and maya it is darkness. Where there is light, there is no darkness; where there is Krishna, there is no maya. 

PURPORT (continued)

Seeing in the darkness is not seeing. But seeing by the light of the sun means to see the sun and everything else which was unseen in the darkness.

COMMENT

In the Bhagavad-gītā Krishna says that this knowledge lights up everything, just like when the sun rises it lights up everything, and everything becomes clear. Who we are, who our family members are, who our friends are, who our pets are, who the stranger on the street is. Everything is lit up, and it is actually revealed that everyone, every living being is the spirit soul, part and parcel of Krishna. And therefore, we are all one spiritually, we are all one in the sense that we are spiritual souls part and parcel of Krishna. We are all related to each other, with Krishna as the center. Therefore, the most advanced devotee sees everyone else as a devotee, he feels that sense of kinship with every living entity. That is the perfection of love. 

One of my godbrothers named Baradraja dasa, when I first came to the Boston temple he was there, he had also just come, but I didn’t know. When I came I assumed everyone had been there a long time and they were very senior, and he was. He was in the temple in Montreal for, well, there were devotees in Montreal for a while, but anyway, he came to Boston. So he said that when he came to Boston, that was when he met Srila Prabhupada and saw the devotees. He said then he realized that Krishna consciousness is just love masquerading as a philosophy, because actually it is all love, all you need is love. It is all love, and the philosophy is just really to help us uncover that love, awaken that dormant love. Then it just flows to Krishna, but in that flowing to Krishna, because we are all meant to love Krishna, it gathers others up in that flow. We can all grow close to Krishna together. And again, always stay in the light, always be with Krishna, stay connected with the devotees - reading, seeing the deities, and especially, chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. 

Now, one thing which is just sort of a footnote is that, just as it is extremely valuable to serve devotees, it is very detrimental to offend devotees or hurt devotees. And this can also become complicated when your family members are devotees. So we should keep that in mind, that we are dealing with devotees. If we are a parent or in a position of responsibility in which we have to correct someone, we can do that, but we should be mindful that they are devotees and not just react on the basis of anger or some other manifestation of the bodily concept of life. In that material consciousness, “Oh, it is my wife, my children,” but they are devotees, so we have to keep their spiritual identity in mind and deal with them very carefully. That will be good for us and good for relationships with them. But everyone is ultimately a devotee, so we should really deal nicely with everybody. Hare Krishna. Are there any questions or comments? 

Devotee 1: I want to see if I understand this. As you are talking about serving devotees is the same as serving Krishna, I am thinking about my husband, who is not involved in bhakti-yoga. Initially I thought, Oh, initially he is not a devotee because he is not involved here or doesn’t come with programs or anything. But as you were talking, I wondered if I understood correctly to say that my husband or everybody, at the core, underneath all the material things, is a devotee. So to serve my husband, not necessarily in a material way, but to serve his soul, to perform actions that benefit his soul in a way that doesn’t offend his material body, is beneficial? Is it the same as serving Krishna? To serve my husband’s soul is the same as serving Krishna? 

Giriraj Swami: Pretty much [Laughter]. When you serve a servant of Krishna, someone who is consciously, deliberately, and favorably serving Krishna, that is counted as devotional service, bhakti-yoga. Now it is true, your husband is a devotee, but he doesn’t know he is a devotee. He doesn’t act like a devotee in some ways at least. But it is true that underneath it all, he is a devotee, so you want to deal with him in such a way that he comes closer to Krishna consciousness. He knows you are involved in Krishna consciousness, so a lot of his impressions of Krishna consciousness will depend on what he sees in you. If he sees you are happy, he will note that, Oh, she is happy. If you are very polite, respectful, and manifest a nice service mood in relation to him, he will note that, Oh, actually, by her association with Krishna consciousness she has improved, she is better than what she was before. Any favorable thoughts he has in relation to Krishna consciousness will help him advance, it will bring him closer to Krishna consciousness. You are in a very influential position to help him spiritually, but at this stage, it could probably be more by your example than by your preaching [Laughter].

Devotee 2: Maharaja, my question is that in the material world I have devotee friendships and devotee relationships. Does any of that translate into the spiritual world? Say, I become a cowherd boy in the spiritual world someday. Will I recognize my devotee friends from the material world?

Giriraj Swami: Oh, well, this is based on the presumption that you will all be there, which is our hope. Why are you asking this question? 

Devotee 2: My question is really how would relationships from the material world translate, if at all, into the spiritual world? 

Giriraj Swami: Well, they would translate in the sense that we are serving Krishna together here, so we will serve Krishna together there. Srila Prabhupada gave the example that if you are in high school and you are doing college level work, you can be promoted to college; so if you are in the material world and are engaged in the activities of the spiritual world, you can be promoted to the spiritual world. But it is true, we can have different relationships with Krishna. I will mention briefly: as a servant, as a friend, even as a parent or teacher, like Kunti. She was Krishna’s aunt; she was in a superior position in that sense. As a lover or wife of Krishna too. But it doesn’t mean that – say, suppose you become a wife of Krishna, it doesn’t mean that a devotee who you are associated with here will also be a wife of Krishna. He or she will have her own individual relationship. 

You will recognize your spiritual master, and your service will continue under his guidance, it is also an eternal relationship. Srila Prabhupada gave the example that a girl has a relationship with her father, and then when she gets married, she has a relationship with her husband, but her relationship with her father continues. In that analogy, the spiritual master is the father and Krishna is the husband. Both relationships continue, they are eternal. And the other ones are too, but maybe not the way we might envision them. Yes, Chaitanya Candra Prabhu.

Devotee 3: In regards to that memory, of course, we would have to be there to see, but the freedom from ignorance and being there in the spiritual world, that must be a pretty powerful vision. The purity of the soul and their living. There must be certain things they can see that we obviously can’t see here, right? I mean, they are seeing Krishna first of all, and we are not seeing—personally at least, we are not seeing Krishna. But then Prabhupada also made that comment, that there is going to be ISKCON in the spiritual world. So I was just curious because I was thinking if you are enlightened, somebody does return to the spiritual world and you knew them, maybe Krishna might arrange for you to bump into them in this pretty big place, right? Now it is pretty big here. We are this insignificant portion of the population of the spiritual world. When you go to a big festival, sometimes you won’t see anybody that you know because there is just too many people there. I am speaking of going back. There is so many living beings there. 

Giriraj Swami: Well, the way I look at it—hypothetically I go to the spiritual world, and in the spiritual world I will be with Srila Prabhupada, but his other disciples and servants are also going to be there with him. So just as my relationship with Srila Prabhupada is eternal, my relationship with his other servants is also eternal because they will also be serving him in the spiritual world. We might as well learn to like each other now; we are going to be together for a long time [Laughter]. 

Devotee 4: Queen Kunti was married to Pandu, and when he died at an early age, she was devastated. She wanted to go with him, but she chose to stay and take care of the children. But in these prayers of Queen Kunti, she doesn’t mention him at all. Is it that the relationship was finished? Because she doesn’t talk about him, she talks about her sons and she is completely devoted to Krishna. I am just trying to understand her attachment to her husband for a woman, especially in India. That culture is so deep that the husband is everything. I guess every person is individual and unique, but does that relationship keep going for great personalities like Pandu and Kunti? He was a king; she was a queen. It kind of feels like a gap, what happened to Pandu? I mean, he is dead.

Giriraj Swami: Well, I am sure that she had an affectionate relationship with her husband and that she was faithful to him in her heart and in her memory. It might not have been the time and place to bring it up in her prayers to Lord Krishna when He was leaving.

Devotee 4: I guess it was eternal, their relationship. 

Giriraj Swami: [pause] Yes, Chaitanya Chandra Prabhu.

Devotee 3: He can be also categorized in that statement she made about affection for the Pandavas and the Vṛṣṇis. He is Pandu and Pandavas.

Giriraj Swami: He was included in her prayers [Laughter]. That is a good one, in a sort of negative sense but. . . 

Devotee 5: This is more just like a curiosity question, but I am interested in the function of marriage in a spiritual sense. Marriage in this realm is making the material decision to be bonded to another being, how does that relate to spiritual realms? Does it transfer over? Is there a function? Does it bond your soul to another person? Is it conditional that you can’t go to the other dimensions or planet without the soul you chose to marry? Or do you remain separate? 

Giriraj Swami: Well, in Krishna consciousness we want the center of all our relationships to be Krishna, so in marriage we want Krishna to be the center. There was a couple who would give seminars on marriage, and they were very good devotees. She especially would also join me for seminars on chanting japa. So I invited them to South Africa, we had a japa retreat and then after that we had a couples’ weekend. They asked me to give an introductory talk to the couples’ weekend, and that became a document about the Krishna conscious married life. It relates very much to the verse and purport. One of Srila Prabhupada’s early disciples—and in the beginning we were asking questions just like that because we didn’t know. And she asked, “What about my relationship with my husband or my children? Is it proper to love them?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Yes, just like the right hand has a relationship with the left hand, but it is through the body.” The husband and wife have a relationship, but it is through Krishna. When you get married—what is the function you are asking? 

Devotee 5: Yes. 

Giriraj Swami: That is interesting because, even as a sannyasi, I have spoken at quite a few marriages, and I almost always quote a statement by an authority. He said, “The purpose of marriage is not to make you happy. The purpose of marriage is to make you married, and when you are fully and properly married, you have a structure of safety and security in which you can find your own happiness.” Marriage is part of the whole Vedic system, varnashrama. And it is meant to provide a congenial environment in which you are married, but you are also finding your own happiness in Krishna consciousness. It is very important to have a compatible partner. Ideally, as far as possible, they should be compatible materially and spiritually, but even if they are not compatible—well, there is never complete material compatibility, but if there is spiritual compatibility, that will get you through. But as we were discussing—what is your name? 

Devotee 5: Ashley.

Giriraj Swami: Ashley. As we are discussing with Ashley, if you end up in a situation—that won’t be your case, but if it happens that a couple is married, then one becomes Krishna conscious afterwards and the other one lags behind, then the one who becomes Krishna conscious will use different subtle ways, mainly by example, to help the spouse become Krishna conscious. But if you are Krishna conscious before you are married, then you can try to find a spouse who is also Krishna conscious, that would be important. Did I answer your question?

Devotee 5: And you will stay tied together? Do you have to move with one unit in spiritual advancement or can you go separately inside of a marriage? I guess you can go separately because of separate situation.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, you are individuals, but it is the duty of the spouses to help each other in Krishna consciousness. There is a very significant verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that says, “No one should become a father, no one should become a mother, no one should become a husband, no one should become a guru, unless he or she can deliver his or her dependent from this repetition of birth and death.” That is a very serious responsibility to have children because your actual responsibility is to make sure they don’t have to take birth again; this is their last birth. And that can only take place if they become pure devotees of Krishna. So, that is like a joint project for the husband and wife. If you bring a soul into the world, you do it with that consciousness, to raise that child in Krishna consciousness.

Devotee 5: Thank you. 

Giriraj Swami: I don’t know if I have your email address, but I could send you that talk I gave. It is called, “The Purpose of Grihastha-ashram.”

Any other questions or comments? Well, thank you, you have been very attentive and very inquisitive. You might also be very hungry, but don’t worry, we have something for you in that regard as well. Thank you and please keep coming to these programs. Hare Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam ki jaya!