SB 1.2.11 – Personal and Impersonal Conceptions

Giriraj Swami: So Chandra has selected a topic. He told me that there are two brothers who may or may not be here today, or one of which may or may not be here today, who are having a running argument about whether the ultimate realization is personal or impersonal. There are people who are not really aware of the full facts, who believe that the impersonal realization is the highest but according to the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the impersonal light which is the goal of jnanis and impersonal yogis who want to merge and become one with it. That impersonal light is actually the glowing effulgence of the transcendental body of Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. 

In fact, the cover of this book Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam gives a complete pictorial representation of the entire existence. Here in the center is Krishna-loka or Goloka Vrindavan, but maybe I should start with us. Actually we are too small to be identified but we are somewhere here in this little but it is the material world, what Srila Prabhupada calls a cloud in the spiritual sky because it is covered in darkness. So we are here in the material world and all these little balls are all material universes, so all these universes are just that in that one little area and this is the topmost spiritual planet, the planet of Krishna known as Goloka Vrindavan. 

And then there are other spiritual planets here in which the presiding deity is Lord Narayana or Vishnu and Lord Rama also has His planet and the different manifestations of Krishna have their planets, but the highest planet is this Goloka Vrindavan. And if you see there is a section in Goloka Vrindavan where Lord Chaitanya, Sri Krishna Chaitanya who is also Krishna but in the mood of Srimati Radharani in the form of a devotee. So there are different sections in Goloka and in one section is Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. So there are different categories of transcendentalists. The jnanis who are philosophical speculators, they want to merge and become one with this spiritual effulgence which is actually emanating from the beautiful transcendental form of Krishna. 

Then there is another partial but more full aspect of Krishna called the Paramātmā and that is the Lord within the heart of every living entity. So the yogi’s ultimate goal is to realize the Paramātmā feature of the Lord within the heart, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yogino, that is actually Krishna. And the devotees, they aspire to serve and realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the absolute truth in full. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, I will read that verse; it is one of the most important verses in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Canto One, Chapter Two: “Divinity and Divine Service,” Text eleven. Please repeat after me.

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

So, we recite the verse.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

TRANSLATION

Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

The Absolute Truth is both subject and object, and there is no qualitative difference there. Therefore, Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān are qualitatively one and the same. The same substance is realized as impersonal Brahman by the students of the Upaniṣads, as localized Paramātmā by the Hiraṇyagarbhas or the yogīs, and as Bhagavān by the devotees. In other words, Bhagavān, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth. Paramātmā is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god. Less intelligent students of either of the above schools sometimes argue in favor of their own respective realization, but those who are perfect seers of the Absolute Truth know well that the above three features of the one Absolute Truth are different perspective views seen from different angles of vision.

As it is explained in the first śloka of the First Chapter of the Bhāgavatam, the Supreme Truth is self-sufficient, cognizant and free from the illusion of relativity.

COMMENT

What does cognizant mean?

PURPORT (continued)

In the relative world the knower is different from the known, but in the Absolute Truth both the knower and the known are one and the same thing. In the relative world the knower is the living spirit or superior energy, whereas the known is inert matter or inferior energy.

COMMENT

So in the beginning, Chandra mentioned that the first lesson in spiritual life or the first instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā is that we, the living entity, are distinct from the physical body. As Chandra pointed out, the body that I had when that picture was taken some fifty years ago is different from the body I have now. But I the spirit soul am the same. I may not be able to do the things I used to do as a young lad, but I can remember I used to run and jump and play. So I am the same person but my body has changed and the Bhagavad-gītā gives a very good example that,

dehino ‘smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir 
dhīras tatra na muhyati

That just as the spirit soul in this life goes from a child’s body to a youth’s body to an old person’s body, similarly at the time of death the living entity enters into another body. We have already passed through different bodies in this lifetime. If I were to show you pictures of three babies, you wouldn’t be able to identify which was me because that baby’s body and this body are completely different. So each and every one of us has already passed through various bodies but we are still the same person. We can remember things from our past when we were in a different body so at the time of death we, the spiritual being, will just pass into another body. And what body we get will depend on our karma, our activities, and our consciousness at the time of death. 

The eighth chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā gives an elaborate description of the different factors at the time of death that determine the next life. And it is very important for us to consider our next life because we won’t be in this body very long, maybe one hundred years, for most people that would be the maximum. So where will we go? So that is a very important factor to consider. It is as if this body is an apartment that we are occupying and we get a notice that we have to vacate this apartment. So a foolish person won’t consider that he has to vacate the apartment very soon and he will just be busy decorating the apartment and making all arrangements for his comfort or her comfort in the apartment, but there is no plan for when he or she has to vacate. 

So we should be thoughtful, we should be intelligent, we should be foresighted and consider where are we going to go when we leave this body. Now if we take the example of the apartment, if someone has been irresponsible and has not been earning money, and has not been saving money, then he or she won’t be able to afford a very good place so they may have to move into a lesser place than they have been occupying. But someone who has been very diligent and earning and saving can move into a better apartment. So in the same way, depending on how we live our life, we may get a better body in our next life; better means more highly evolved or a worse body which may mean less evolved or more unfortunate. 

So what is the currency that determines our ability to get a better apartment? That currency is ultimately Krishna consciousness, but it is our pious activities. If we engage in pious activities we can be promoted, if we engage in sinful activities means vicious activities against the laws of God we will be demoted or degraded, and if we engage in spiritual activities of bhakti-yoga then we can be completely liberated from the cycle of birth and death and we won’t have to take birth in this material world again, but we go to Krishna. And in many places in the Bhagavad-gītā, Krishna tells us how we can do that but one important verse is spoken by the Lord, Krishna.

janma karma ca me divyam

evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti so ‘rjuna

So the Lord says janma; janma means birth, karma means activities, ca me—my, divyam—transcendental, one who understands the transcendental nature of Krishna’s birth or appearance in this world and activities, janma karma ca me divyam, evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ, who understands it in truth; tattvataḥ means in truth not just superficially but in truth, tyaktvā dehaṁ after giving up this body, punar janma repeated birth, naiti, no more repetition of birth and death, but mām eti, he will come to me. So that is our goal and that is part of why we have these discussions, so we can understand Krishna in truth, because if we can do that then we don’t have to take birth in this material world. 

Now someone may say, well what is wrong with taking birth in the material world? I have taken birth in the material world and I am happy; I am enjoying. There could be some truth to that but our pleasure in this material world is always mixed with pain. We cannot in this physical body experience pure unadulterated pleasure. Of course, the pleasure that we experience due to the contact of the senses with the objects of the senses is a relatively low grade of pleasure anyway. It cannot compare with the spiritual pleasure that realized devotees experience or even beginning devotees. But even if we take it as pleasure it is temporary, it is very temporary. So we want everlasting pleasure and that can come in the spiritual body. So okay spiritual body, now what is that? Well as we have been discussing, we are actually the spirit soul, we are not the body. As long as the soul is in the body there is life; we say the body is alive but actually the body is never actually alive because the body is a machine. It functions as long as there is a person to operate it and if the person leaves the machine, then the machine won’t work anymore. 

So that person who makes the machine of the body work is us, that is the spiritual soul. And that spiritual soul is by nature sat, cit, ānanda vigraha, eternal, full of bliss, and full of knowledge. And the body by nature is the opposite of such temporary, acit—full of ignorance, and nirānanda—full of misery. So this material body is not a very happy place. The Bhagavad-gītā actually says that knowledge includes being aware, being conscious and cognizant of the miseries of this body, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. We should always be aware of the miseries of the repetition of birth, death, old age, and disease. 

So someone may say, well what is wrong with material life; what is wrong with having a physical body. But material life and a physical body means these miseries—birth, death, old age, and disease. You can ask someone. You say, “Okay, you say you like material life but do you like becoming old?” “No!” “Do you like getting disease?” “No!” “Do you want to die?” “No!” But that is what having a material body entails. So that spiritual spark, that is us; that is our actual identity, when we become self-realized or god realized, that develops into a full-fledged spiritual body with which we can serve Krishna in the spiritual world. And that can also be understood indirectly at least because in the Bhagavad-gītā, Krishna says that the body is like a dress, that just as a person discards his old and useless dress and puts on a new dress, similarly the living entity discards this material body when it becomes old and useless and gets another body. 

So taking that analogy of dress, of clothing. So our clothing has a shape; all the boys here they have shirts and pants. The shirt has a shape; the pants has a shape because their body has a shape. So similarly, our bodies have a shape because our souls have a shape. And when we become self-realized or god realized, then our spiritual body manifests and we can do everything with our spiritual body that we can do with our physical body and more. But there is no pain, you don’t lose anything. You keep everything that you have in your conditioned existence with your physical body but there is no pain. It is our only pleasure. So given that we have noticed that we have to vacate, we should prepare where are we going to go? What are we going to do? And so Krishna consciousness, bhakta-yoga means preparing for our next life. And again as stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, those who are in the mode of goodness, who engage in pious activities, they can go to the higher material planets. Those in the mode of passion whose activities are mixed, pious, and sinful, they could take birth again on a planet like the earth. And those who are in the mode of ignorance whose activities have been more sinful, they will take birth in an animal species or they may be punished in a lower planet, a more hellish existence. 

There are fourteen planetary systems and the earth is the seventh, which means it is in-between but a little on the lower side and it seems to be getting lower but more, the proportion of misery is increasing. So that is our purpose here in bhakti-yoga and there are various processes and in bhakti-yoga. There are seven main ones—śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam and so on. But of those nine, the first three that are mentioned are the most important. Śravaṇaṁ means hearing; that is what you are doing, you are hearing. Hearing talks about Krishna. Kīrtanaṁ means chanting or repeating what you have heard or glorifying Krishna, and smaraṇaṁ means to remember Krishna. 

If you chant nicely and hear nicely then you will naturally remember Krishna and that is our goal—to always remember Krishna and never forget Him. And if we remember Krishna at the time of death we will go to Krishna, to the spiritual kingdom of God. And there is Krishna’s name, form, qualities, pastimes, entourage, paraphernalia. There is so much to Krishna but the most essential practice, if you can do that perfectly you can become perfect in spiritual life, is the chanting of the holy names of Krishna. 

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

We did that in the beginning; very beautiful rendering of the Hare Krishna mantra in music, and that is kirtan. There are two kinds of chanting—chanting is all the same in one sense but then there is quiet chanting called japa. So we have these bead bags and in these bead bags we have our beads, our chanting beads and on each bead, we chant the mantra once. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And then we go on to the next bead, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. So 108 beads make one round, so when we chant 108 Hare Krishna mantras we have chanted one round. 

So it is good to have beads and to have some minimum number that you do every day even if it is only one round. It varies but it should take less than ten minutes. So you can chant one round and that is your beginning and if by chance, if you miss which I mean one round you shouldn’t but then you make it up the next day, then you chant two rounds the next day and that way you build up your spiritual strength. And to be initiated by a spiritual master in ISKCON one must chant at least sixteen rounds a day, which might take two hours; two and a half more or less. 

So just to come back to these different realizations, one example that our spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada gave, was in India when the railway was first introduced. So there is a big announcement that the train is coming to the station so many people out of curiosity gathered on the platform to see the train. So in the distance they saw a light like the headlight, spotlight of the train. So some of them saw the light and they said, “Oh the train is a light and they left. Then they waited and as the train got closer, they saw like there is an outline and windows and they could see that the form of it looks like a face in a way so they said, “Oh that is what a train is; it is shaped like a face,” and then they left. But those who remained until the train stopped at the station they say, “Oh there are so many cars, there are so many people, there are so many activities, there are the passenger cars, and the dining cars, and there is the engineer who runs the train, and the conductor who collects the tickets, and there is a kitchen, and they say there is a whole life on board that train.” 

So realization of that light, that is like Brahman. That is just the light, the effulgence of Krishna; and just seeing the form, that is a realization of Paramātmā, the Lord within the heart. I see the form but it is not full realization; full realization is the Lord with His devotees engaged in activities and full life of the spiritual world. So that is our goal and the Bhagavad-gītā explains that not only is that a full realization achieved by bhakti-yoga, but bhakti-yoga is an easier and more pleasurable practice than jnana-yoga by which one could realize if one is lucky and really perseveres one could realize that light, try to merge into the light but that merging is compared to it is actually called spiritual suicide. It is like people suffer so much in the material world they want to escape. So they think of, Let me merge and become one with that light, then I won’t have to suffer anymore, but it is like spiritual suicide. It is like if you are suffering; say you have some disease and you are suffering and if someone says, “Well I can slit your throat then you won’t have to suffer anymore,” will you agree? No. 

So that is that idea. It is like a spiritual suicide to escape the suffering. And realization of Paramātmā, the Lord in the heart, that is better. It is like at least you are seeing the form of the train, the outline, but there is no personal interaction. There is a little but not fully. So I mentioned this phrase, sat-cit-ānanda, eternity, knowledge, and bliss. So realization of Brahman, of the impersonal light, is realization of the sat feature, eternity, realization of the Paramātmā, the Lord in the heart is realization of sat and cit. There is some knowledge also, eternity, but it is only in loving relationship with Krishna that one experiences ānanda, bliss. All three; sat – eternity, cit – knowledge, and ānanda—bliss. So that is what you get when you practice bhakti-yoga, and it is easily performed and happily performed.

Recently one of our devotees published something on Facebook. “Is that all right that I wish I didn’t have to do any work and I could just be with my friends and chant?” Well, it is all right; that is our goal. In fact, once one of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples was giving a little explanation of what bhakti-yoga was Krishna consciousness, and he said, and this the first part of the phrase, it came from Srila Prabhupada, it is, “Chanting, dancing, feasting, and philosophy,” that is how Prabhupada described it. So this disciple was saying, “Chanting, dancing, feasting, and philosophy, and a little work.” And Prabhupada interrupted him and he said, “No work!” So then the disciples said, “It is chanting, dancing, feasting, and philosophy, and a little, little, little, bit of work.” And Prabhupada again interrupted, he said, “No, no work.” So that is our life.

All right. Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Are there any questions or comments? Yes sir. Can you tell us your name?

Devotee: Pedro. 

Giriraj Swami: Oh Pedro. 

Devotee: For example each one of us can know what is our credit score or just an indicator that tell us how much gasoline we have in the car but as far as karma, is there any way we can know where our karma is? There is no indicator about that or there is no way? It would be ideal to know.

Giriraj Swami: Well, that is a good question. There are actually four. Karma is divided in two categories basically puṇya—pious activities, and papa or sinful activities. And there are four pillars of sinful activities and those are eating meat, fish, or eggs; taking intoxicants even coffee, tea, and cigarettes; engaging in illicit sex outside of marriage. A parent who is a devotee and whose daughter is a devotee in her young twenties, so he brought up the question of dating. And Nitaipada Swami deals a lot with youth, he has a lot of experience with them but he quoted a Christian preacher who said, “No wed no bed.” So coming back to these four; so no eating meat, fish, or eggs; no taking of intoxicants; no illicit sex; and no gambling. So if you can do without those, that is a very good beginning.

Now before coming to Krishna consciousness you or any one of us or all of us, we probably did engage in at least some of these activities. But the reactions to those sinful activities can be eradicated by surrendering to Krishna, by chanting the holy name of Krishna, without offense. Now if you think, Oh well, that is great if I chant Hare Krishna then I get absolved from sinful reactions, and then you purposely engage in some sinful activity thinking, I will just chant and get absolved, that doesn’t work, that is an offense. But it is understood that before coming to the association of devotees you will have engaged in those but if you make an effort to give them up, sincere effort and the chanting will help you, the association will help you, the hearing, the reading will help you, then your past sinful activities, you will get freed from those reactions. So yes, there is good hope. Hare Krishna. Yes.

Devotee: My question is, last time you were talking about cultivating a higher taste and how basically if you have a feast you wouldn’t want scraps. My question is, do we wait until we cultivate that higher taste to give up things that we are struggling with, or do we give it up and let it be bitter in the beginning and then sweet in the end? Does that make sense?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is a very good question. So she was referring to a verse I quoted last time from the Bhagavad-gītā, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate, that means that when you experience the higher taste of Krishna consciousness, then you lose your taste for inferior material things. It is automatic and I gave the example, if a poor man in India, say all he has to eat are some dry chapati, sukha chapati, means without ghee, without butter, so if you try to take that away he will protest because that is all he has. But if you offer him a nice plate of a feast with so many different items, and if you say, “Well, if you give me that dry chapati, I will give you this,” then yes, he will definitely do it because he is getting something better. So that is the basic principle, that we give up something less for something greater. Anyone would do that in any sphere of life, so she is asking that if you develop the higher taste then you will naturally give up the lesser things. 

So that is well and good but she is also asking; but in the beginning, you might not experience the higher taste and so, should you just make a conscious effort to give up some of the lower things? And yes, those sinful things, those four, you should make a conscious effort. And in fact, those sinful activities make it harder for us to relish the higher taste. So it is definitely worth making that effort to give those things up. It is just like if someone is sick. He is convalescing so he might want to eat certain things that are bad for him being in his diseased condition, but even though he still has a taste for those things he doesn’t eat them because he knows it will just make him sicker and he won’t be able to get better. But then when he is better he can eat anything. So that is the idea. Temporarily one may give up some things without the higher taste but by doing so, one will get the higher taste. Good question. Any other questions or comments? Yes sir.

Devotee: Hey everybody I am Tyler.

Giriraj Swami: What is your name?

Devotee: Tyler. 

Giriraj Swami: Tyler, good.

Devotee: Thanks for being here today. So correct me if I pronounce it wrong but when the Mayavadi; is that correct?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. 

Devotee: Mayavadi yogis, when they achieve this Brahman, is their journey just done, is that what you mean by spiritual suicide; they can never achieve anything beyond that because they have merged and they are just gone or what does that mean? Can they come back from that?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is a really good question. So when an impersonal jnani or yogi merges, the reason we say it is spiritual suicide is because they are giving up their individual existence but they can’t really. . . first of all it is very difficult to actually attain that position, extremely so. But even if one does, it is also even more difficult to maintain that position because they get bored. Srila Prabhupada gives the example, you might be on a boat and it is great. “I am away from the land, I am away from the city, I am away from all the problems.” You are just looking at the ocean. It is nice for a while because there is some relief but then after a while, it gets a bit boring just looking at the ocean and you think, Oh maybe I should go back on the land and have some activity and variety. So yes, there is a very beautiful verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which says that the impersonalists imagine that they are liberated, vimukta-māninas, mukta means liberated; vimukta means fully liberated; māninas, in their mind they think they are liberated, but patanty adhaḥ, they fall down again, yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ, because they have neglected the service of Your lotus feet. So yes, it is temporary and it is difficult to achieve. Once you achieve it, it is not that great and usually after a while, you just fall down again anyway. Yes, thank you. Yes, Chandra.

Devotee: Hare Krishna. I believe it is an example that Prabhupada gives but I heard first from our time I always liked this one that if we ask somebody, “Do you think the sun is hot?” Everyone says, “Yes, of course it is hot.” And you ask them, “Why do you think it is hot?” They are smart, they will say “Because I live in Texas and just go outside,” and if they are not so witty they will say, “Because the scientists told me so,” because that is based on some element of faith. But first level is practical experience and so the sunlight that you experience, the heat experience in Texas that is the effect of the sun, tells us something about the sun. So if the sunlight is hot then the sun has to be so much more potent, so much more hot, so a greater infinite degree of light and luminosity. So in this world you find variety, you find persons, you find people, if you say that the source of this world does not have form or personality but it comes out with form and personality, it is like saying that sunlight is hot but the sun it is cold.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, as Prabhupada said, it is like we have form, we have personality, we have thoughts, we have feelings, we have desires, we have pastimes, and the one who manufactured us he doesn’t have all those things? Of course he must have everything that we have and more. That is true. Yes, he has everything that we have and more and to an unlimited degree. Any other? Oh okay, Chandra.

Devotee: Also, yesterday’s point from Devarshi Swami, I really appreciated the point he mentioned, both impersonal conception, that if you think the world is false then you can’t say something is good or bad. There is no actual ethic if everything is just false or if you are not coming from that impersonal idea, if you are coming from an atheistic view that the world is just mechanical, it is just an item of mechanics, so there is no good or bad because it is all just coming. Something exploded and something is eating the other thing so then to say, “Oh you should do this or you shouldn’t do that,” is trying to pull meaning when your basis of your philosophy is that there is no meaning. Trying to say that you can have secular ethics that you just need the golden rule, treat others, you don’t actually have a basis of it in the philosophy that the person is thinking how life is working. So that has real world implications. It is not just a belief but how you understand the world as real world implications of how people behave and act.

Giriraj Swami: True.

Devotee: If you want to expand on that. 

Giriraj Swami: No, I think what we have been saying more or less does point to the fact that how we live our life has implications. And we are basing our information on what God himself tells us. But even to some extent, if we leave aside the idea of God it is logical and it is reasonable; it is sensible. Are there any other questions or comments? So what is next?

Devotee: Higher taste.

Giriraj Swami: Okay that means?

Devotee: This is also the higher taste but continuing higher tastes.

Giriraj Swami: Yes.