End of Life Care and Bhakti Wisdom

Chaitanya Charan: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. Thank you very much for joining today to the Monk’s podcast. It’s a great honor and pleasure to have you. Thank you for sharing your time.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I’ve been looking forward to it.

Chaitanya Charan: Thank you, Maharaja.

Maharaja, I had read about you and read your books for many years but my first interaction was with you when you were writing this book, Many Moons. Then, I got the opportunity to, Gauranga Prabhu forwarded that book to me and then we interacted at that time.

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Chaitanya Charan: Since then I have been very deeply inspired by your deep and extraordinary absorption in the small small details of bhakti—and especially often the details that are overlooked, that often they don’t get the due attention and one such thing is the end-of-life care. You wrote that book, that book was talking about the reported Vaishnavas. Then after that, you had another book about Life’s Final Exam. So, this is in one sense a central aspect of our philosophy, life is for preparing for death. But, how did you choose to focus on this subject in your writing?

Giriraj Swami: Yes. I would say that the main inspiration to focus on it in my writing and even in my service was a disciple of mine from South Africa named Arca Vigraha devi dasi. In fact, I have her photo here.

Chaitanya Charan: Oh!

Giriraj Swami: Yeah. She was a well-known artist in South Africa. And at a certain point, she was diagnosed with cancer. I suggested that she, I mean she had a beautiful home in Yeoville, in Johannesburg. I suggested that she wind up her activities there and come to Vrindavan.

Even before then, she had built a house in Vrindavan. She was one of the first, and she kept the ground floor for herself and the upstairs floor for me, when I came to Vrindavan. She loved Vrindavan and eventually that was inevitable she left her body. But one of her final wishes which she expressed to me was that she wanted other devotees to have the opportunity to leave their bodies in Vrindavan.

And at the time, the medical care available in Vrindavan was not very good. So, she added that she would like those devotees, for whom I created a facility to have better access to good medical care, and that was the beginning of the idea of the Bhaktivedanta Hospice in Vrindavan. The hospice has served many many devotees. A lot of hospice care is done to people in their homes, and so, we did a lot of that but we also had a substantial facility in Raman Reti in Vrindavan, where devotees could come and spend their last days. With the hospice care, the emphasis is on what they call palliative care; making the patient comfortable. By definition, one cannot enter into a hospice as long as one is trying to cure the disease which is expected to be terminal. Hospice is for patients who have given up the attempt to cure themselves from their life-threatening illness, and that was the case with mother Arca Vigraha.

Naturally, everyone tries every possible cure. But with mother Arca Vigraha and pretty much everyone who comes in hospice, she came to the conclusion that she was not going to recuperate. And so, she spent her last days in, well her last days and really months, and actually years in Vrindavan in the home that she built. She was very fortunate, we all were very fortunate that her next-door neighbor was HH Bhakti Bringa Govinda Swami. He would come every day, he would bring His Deities, he would bring prasāda for her and he was a real friend to her and śikṣā-guru. Because we know from the Bhagavad-gītā, we know from the Bhāgavatam; Ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ, that the goal of life is to remember Krishna at the time of death. But, how do we remember Krishna at the time of death?

So, Bhakti Bringa Govinda Swami encouraged mother Arca Vigraha to absorb herself in Krishna’s pastimes and even to visualize herself in them. I mean it’s a little complicated subject. But Krishna means Krishna, His name, His forms, His qualities, His pastimes, His entourage, His paraphernalia. So, she was learning how to do that, fix her mind on Krishna.

And at that time many senior devotees were spending a lot of time in Vrindavan, and trying to go deep in bhakti shastras. Almost every afternoon a group of these devotees which included; HH Tamal Krishna Goswami, HH Sivarama Swami, HH Bhakti Govinda Swami, myself, I think HH Kesava Bharati dasa Goswami, they would come and read a drama written by Srila Rupa Gosvami, called Vidagdha-mādhava, and different of the devotees would take the parts of different of the characters in the drama, and it was a way of well, it was enlivening for all of us, but specifically as a way of helping her to become absorbed in Krishna’s pastimes. As I mentioned, she had the desire that others could also come and leave their bodies in Vrindavan and that was really the seed of the Bhaktivedanta Hospice. At the hospice, they have a nice picture of her at the entrance because she was really the inspiration behind it.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. I’ve heard this story before. But the details that you told didn’t register me, now when we are focusing on this topic. So, basically, it is not just medical care but also because of the devotee association, there is a lot of facility for remembering Krishna. Also, and in some ways, I have been to the hospice and there is a lot of; I would say from the Indian perspective, it’s a very generous facility in India. It’s like a five-star hospital. It’s very suited for devotees who actually may not be from India and they will find it reasonably comfortable there. Because it is not very far from the various sacred places there lot of access to the devotional resources, with which Vrindavan is rich.

So, Maharaja, which year was all this, a rough timeline?

Giriraj Swami: Well, she left in 1994, and she was in Vrindavan maybe for three years before then.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. And the hospice started roughly when?

Giriraj Swami: That would have been, I could check but maybe 2001 or something.

Chaitanya Charan: So, in India even now hospices are not that common. So, I presume this must be one of the first hospices there in Vrindavan. Or any secret places like that?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, it’s true. Because we wanted some of the devotees to be trained in hospice work. We were surprised to find that there was really only one hospice in all of India; in South India. So, one of the leading hospices in the world, and the leading hospice in education is in San Diego, in Southern California.

And so, some of the devotees who were going to be involved in our hospice in Vrindavan, they were medical doctors, but they came to San Diego, and they were trained in end-of-life care there. And then after that they came to my ashram in Carpentaria, and together we visited one or two hospices in Santa Barbara. Even a small place like Santa Barbara has two hospices.

And they learned a lot, the field of hospice care although it involves doctors and nurses, but the goal is a little different. Because for some people it’s a calling, but some people don’t like it, they want the patient to get cured and go home healthy.

So, yeah we had one lady from Bhaktivedanta hospital in Mumbai who came, but she was like that, she wanted the patients to get cured and go home. She didn’t want to just be there with them for their departure. But for many devotees it’s a calling, and as you rightly said, the whole goal is to help the devotee think of Krishna at the time of death; ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ. And as Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gītā, whatever state you leave your body, in whatever state you leave your body to that, you attain. 

So, that’s the ultimate goal of end-of-life care; is to help the devotee, help the patient, help the devotee think of Krishna at the time of death and go to Krishna, go back home back to Godhead.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes. So, actually before our meeting I was just reading a little bit about hospice—it is both very sobering at the same time quite spiritualizing. And, I read one of the, I think the reviews or endorsements of your book. So, there one of the reviewers says that “this is an area where spiritual wisdom and human needs meet each other.” So, it’s very well articulated.

And, so I was looking at why hospices are not so common in India. So, I found two-three reasons, but I may, I thought will ask you then; One is that India still has the culture of family members taking care of their elders. Second is that also in general, health care is not that developed, so hospice is much more like a specialized health care. Third, also is that it seems at least in some parts of the western world the lifespan, the longevity has increased substantially, and that’s why in general for people who are older the health care facilities are more. So, there are homes for elderly people, similarly there are hospices also.

So, it seems slowly the last five to ten years, India has also started developing in this direction, because India also is becoming more urbanized and traditional family structure is not there so much. Also, people need this kind of care. But, for you, what were your observations when you had to pioneer this in India? Was their receptivity or was there seemed like an unusual idea and both in Vrindavan locally as well as in the devotee community there?

Giriraj Swami: Well, devotees are a good field because they know they’re not the body. They know that death means that their real self which is the soul, the ātmā or jīvātmā, the death means that the jīvātmā is leaving the body and that they will continue to exist.

So, then the question is after leaving the body, where will you go? And again, based on the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the goal is Krishna, to go back home back to Godhead. That goal can be reached by thinking of Krishna at the time of death. So, it’s a great advantage to be surrounded by devotees at the time of death. Helping one remember Krishna, and this idea is common to other traditions as well.

I used to preach in Pakistan, and there I came across a book called The Ninety-nine Names of Allah, like we have The Thousand Names of Vishnu, so Ninety-nine Names of Allah, and in that book, it said that the best thing that the loved ones and family members of someone who’s dying can do, is help the person remember the name of Allah at the time of death. So, it is a universal principle. But the art or the science is certainly most developed in a Vaishnava tradition.

Chaitanya Charan: Can you elaborate this. . . So, when you say it’s most developed, in what sense is it?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, well they have the most clear understanding of where the soul can go after leaving the body. Other traditions it’s sort of vague, they want to go to heaven, of course we know that there is material heaven in the material universe, Svargaloka.

But, beyond the material universe there is a spiritual sky which has spiritual planets presided over by Vishnu murti. And then there is the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Vrindavan, the planet of Krishna. We have such a rich tradition for remembering Krishna, we have all the holy names, so many songs, of course mainly the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, many songs, bhajans, and literature, immense literature.

I mean, if you take The Koran, or The Holy Bible, and compare them just in terms of volume, they’re small when compared with Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And then we also have Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So, there is a vast literature to occupy the mind of the devotee who’s preparing for death.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. Also, I don’t think there is that much of this positive description of God. Even the Bible has a lot of stories, it’s one thing to directly remember the Lord, and another thing to remember the people in whose life God intervened, that’s also uplifting. But especially in the final days I think remembering the Lord directly is quite enriching in its own way.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, like HH Bhakti Bringa Govinda Swami Maharaja told mother Arca Vigraha—tell the information of the spiritual world and God and His devotees and their activities, you don’t find that anywhere else.

Chaitanya Charan: Yeah. So, Maharaja since you started this, so overall how has been the experience with having the hospice, devotees taking care and devotees being taken care of, how has been the response?

I read the books that not only devotees have been served over there, but also local Brijwasis have been served and sometimes devotees’ parents and relatives have also been served. So, that book was I think almost five-six years ago, that time itself it seemed that it was already a very inspiring stories of people being spiritualized in their last days. So, overall how has been that experience?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, I mean people have appreciated the hospice so much. We had different types of rooms, our first priority was for the pioneers in ISKCON, and so there are some private rooms for them. But we also wanted to serve the local people, the Brijwasis, and for them, we had common rooms not very big but three beds per room.

And as I mentioned earlier, a lot of hospice care is covered at people’s homes and so, our main hospice doctor Ananta Sinha Prabhu, the disciple of HH Radhanath Swami, and because they treat them. Then there is another division which is caregivers of the patient at home a break, a respite, and so, respite care means that for a period of whatever a week or two, we bring the patient from home into the hospice to give the caregivers at home a break. Because it’s also taxing on them so, it’s good for them to get a break or a rest, and then they can come back to their service at home, with more enthusiasm and strength.

Chaitanya Charan: So, Maharaja when you were also there with Srila Prabhupada in 1977 during his final pastimes. So at that time, of course, being with Prabhupada must have been very intense, but did you have any idea that in future something that for other devotees, something like this should happen or may happen, and you might play a role in that?

Giriraj Swami: No, I didn’t. At that time, the opening of the Juhu temple was a very big issue, and as it is the temple opened exactly two months after Srila Prabhupada left. But, he was very concerned that the temple should open—and he made me the temple president in Juhu, and he expected that I would be focused in Juhu. So these developments came later in Vrindavan, and end-of-life care and the hospice.

Chaitanya Charan: Whenever I talk about Krishna consciousness and one of the things which we can talk about the philosophy of Krishna consciousness, we can talk about the global spread. But for those who are a little bit more seriously spiritually interested, the stories of how devotees have departed in graceful consciousness, surrounded by devotees around them, that is among the most not only inspiring, but also convincing.

So, it actually goes beyond the head to the heart, and although people don’t think about death much, but still everybody at the back of mind knows that it’s going to happen to me. If that is the time when Krishna consciousness can actually help and that actually is very faith boosting.

So, when I travel across the world, I somehow find that many devotees don’t even know much about the hospice, and don’t know much about the idea of end-of-life care. Of course, we hear stories about how devotees always want to leave their body in Krishna consciousness, and they should remember Krishna, but specialized effort for providing that kind of facilities. So, that across the world at least whatever little I have traveled over the last five-six years, I haven’t noticed that much.

So is it because we are still a young movement and we are more in a phase of expansion? It’s such a wonderful facility, and it’s something which I would say every devotee will need in the long run. So have you seen the awareness about End-of-life care, and the importance of facilities like this spreading across our movement over the years?

Giriraj Swami: I would say that, as Srila Prabhupada’s disciples are growing older they are more aware of it. They’re more aware of their impending deaths, and they’re more aware of the need to leave their bodies in a congenial atmosphere—and of course Vrindavan is the ideal place to leave your body.

Srila Prabhupada himself set the example and departed there. But not everyone can go there, and one devotee with whom I’ve been working very closely is Sangita devi dasi, also Srila Prabhupada’s disciple.

Chaitanya Charan: I have read her hospice care book, I think it’s a very, again a very sobering book, but very equipping for somebody who has to offer care at that time.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, it’s called The Final Journey. And, so she formed an organization called Vaishnavas Care; to give support to the dying and their loved ones—because the loved ones also are challenged at that time. First of all, they want to help care for their loved one, and they may not know how, and then, they also have their own grief. So part of, in a way, part of our hospice care is to care, and not only to the patient but to their loved ones, and help them through that grieving process.

Mother Sangita has established Vaishnava care teams in various places, and those teams help people at the end-of-life. She wanted but I don’t know how successful it was, because it wasn’t within her power per se. But she wanted every temple to have a room that could be available for devotees leaving their bodies. I mean, it doesn’t have to lie vacant but when the time comes that the devotee does need a room in the temple community to leave their bodies, the room should be available.

Chaitanya Charan: I think now when I was in Pune and then I have been in Chowpatty, when some devotees are needed like that, there was two brahmachari brothers whose mother had passed away, or she was in the last stages. Then they got her to the temple and she was, she also stayed in the temple and her sons took care of her and it was a very moving story. She became completely transformed, she would have been quite heartbroken when her sons had joined but, I think I shared that story with you, it was published in Back to Godhead also. And at Radha Gopinatha Temple, Stoka Krishna Prabhu’s story that he left in the temple itself and Radhanath Maharaja was also with him.

So, yes. So, two questions. The first is that there is our movement, or we could say there is our institution, and there is the broader movement, so institution is basically the ISKCON’s official structures and then the movement is broadly the devotees who are inspired, and devotees work, and do many things.

So, what I’ve seen in quite a few areas, where in something which has not been normally done in the history of our movement, in the recent history, that usually starts with individual devotees taking up some initiative. So, generally you could say things start in the movement and then gradually something starts happening within the institution. So in one sense what you started also was with the initiative of you and Arca Vigraha Mataji, and now it expanded.

So, now Prabhupada did talk about this in many of his books that, we all have to remember Krishna at the time of death as you said, it’s an important part of our tradition. But at that time probably for him, he didn’t give any institutional directive to prepare any resources like that, at that time our focus was more on building temples and maybe distributing books, making devotees.

So, as our movement expands then we will also have to, we’ll also have to recognize various, we could say not exactly newer but newer for our movement, newer ways of providing Krishna consciousness for our devotees as well as for those connected with devotees, and this was, and hospice is probably one of the most important ones. What do you think about this in this framework?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, yeah hospices very important but again one is hospice care and the other is the hospice physical facility. And again hospice care is done in people’s homes a lot, although the physical facility also has its part to play. But, I found that often devotees who have gotten the benefit of hospice care, look to do some sort of volunteer service in the field of hospice because they have so much realized the benefit of it.

There was one couple in Dallas, the husband was Srila Prabhupada’s disciple and the wife was Tamal Krishna Goswami’s disciple. And the girl’s mother was terminal, and she was staying at home with them. Initially there wasn’t very much interest in the temple of devotees visiting them, which in a way sort of hurt them or disappointed them.

But I found out and I started to visit, and then when I visited, others would come with me and because of my experience with hospice, you know I knew quite a bit about what to do and so they were very very appreciative. Then afterwards, after her mother left the daughter, she wanted to do volunteer work in hospice just to pay back or pay forward the benefit that she had gotten from hospice. Also often people who go into hospice are quite spiritual.

When my father was terminal at home in Glencoe, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago, we had some nurses visiting and they were quite spiritual. I would say that to go into hospice you have to have a spiritual orientation, otherwise it’s just it’s too depressing, it’s too morbid, it’s too just yeah, it’s just disappointing. So I’ve seen that with hospice people they’re usually quite spiritual, not devotees as such but spiritual.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. This also I noticed that as you know our movement has gone beyond the institution, most of our devotees don’t live inside the temples now. So, more and more devotees are looking for, say, professions that are broadly, at least compatible with devotee’s spiritual principles if not directly spiritual.

So, there are not many professions like that in today’s world. I think hospice is one of the few ones of course, as you said I said some talk with some devotees about it, and one needs a particular it’s not just being spiritual even while being spiritual also, not everybody who is spiritually serious can actually take the atmosphere of the hospice. As you said, it can become quite morbid, so but it is a quite an important, it is a very good avenue for devotees also to actually be a professional at the same time be spiritual and share something spiritual with others. Have you seen any movement for devotees in this direction, in the devotee community?

Giriraj Swami: Well, as you were speaking I thought of mother Sangita, because she was a hospice nurse for ten years. Out of what she learned as a hospice nurse she was able to create Vaishnavas Care and personally help people with end-of-life care, and train people. She gives courses in person and online, and she is trained quite a few devotees in end-of-life care. But not as a profession for the devotees but just as a skill that they can use in service to other devotees.

But, I agree with you, it’s a very congenial field in which a devotee can enter and be trained professionally earn a livelihood and at the same time be a good spiritual influence at people. Of course when people are coming to the end of their lives, if they’re pious at least, they’ll want to have some spiritual orientation. They probably have many questions that a devotee could answer. So, I would encourage any devotee who has that inclination to go into that field—very rewarding.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. When I think this whole field, currently many of these fields where it’s almost on the verge of life and death—has it been pioneered by the Christian community to some extent? or is it—I know it is overall you are expected to be secular. But are there a lot of Christians also working in these fields. Means, why I’m asking this is that, the devotee generally normal professions devotees cannot really share their faith or share their spirituality—and here also I think people are not expecting a deathbed, you cannot force your ideology onto people on their deathbed.

But so how does it work in these settings are they secular, or they it’s up to the individual what they want entirely, or how does it work?

Giriraj Swami: You mean up to the patient?

Chaitanya Charan: Up to the patient, yes.

Giriraj Swami: Yes it is up to the patient. But there are universal principles; for example, we are not the body, we are the soul, and death means that the soul leaves the body, and then where does the soul go. Every religious tradition will have the idea that if you do good deeds, you’ll go to a good destination, if you do bad deeds, you go to a bad destination.

So there is the scope, and again, people at that time could be very interested in questions about the body and the soul and the destination of the soul after leaving the body. So, there is a lot of opportunity and the principles of the Bhagavad-gītā are quite universal. Srila Prabhupada always says it’s not a Hindu scripture, you never find the word Hindu in the Bhagavad-gītā, but it’s a science, spiritual science.

So, yeah it’s a wonderful field for devotees and there is a growing awareness in hospice, that the doctors and nurses have to be aware of different spiritual traditions or religious traditions. Because they can get patients from any tradition and they should be knowledgeable about the different traditions, so they know how to deal with the patients properly, cannot commit any blunders.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. I have read some literature on hospice care and some stories of people who were in hospice, some biographies or something. So it seems that what you said they are very thoughtful, very spiritual, very deeply compassionate also within their understanding of things.

So, sometimes we say that the world is becoming more and more materialistic, which is of course true, but within that also there seem to be some areas where consciousness is rising.

So, for some of those which normally thought of before I read this book; I thought of yoga coming in the west is quite a bit big thing, mindfulness is where people are also becoming more recognizing something more than the body, then there is of course vegetarianism or veganism and there is environmental consciousness, and these are quite big, hospice is not that big. But hospice is also an area which does to some extent indicate, at least, some rising to the mood of goodness if not spirituality.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah.

Chaitanya Charan: So, do you see any reason why this has happened? There are, with respect to mindfulness people, have a lot of mental health problems, with respect to environmental consciousness there is a crisis which is there actually. So, how do you see the hospice whole area developing, and it becoming so spiritually receptive? Any reasons you see for this happening? And any ways we can apart from individual devotees going into that area, any ways in which this can become an area where Krishna consciousness can contribute?

Giriraj Swami: Oh. . .well, yeah literature is always good. I mean our tradition is really about death to a large extent. I mean the whole Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Maharaja Parīkṣit was waiting for the time of death, and his question, “what is the duty of a man who is about to leave his body?” And then, the answer one should hear the chant and remember the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It’s the essence of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Yeah, I was invited to give a program at a hospital in Houston, and the topic was end-of-life care. There were people from all different religious traditions, but they were fascinated and yeah. I brought my book, Life’s Final Exam, and I think probably 80 percent of the participants bought a copy, and they were impressed that this is a science. It’s not just some religious sentiment but, it’s a science that can benefit anyone and everyone, and none that they didn’t feel threatened like that their faith was being challenged. But they saw this is something, like Prabhupada always said, you can add this to what you already are and become a better Hindu or Christian or Muslim. So, yeah I found that to be a very rewarding program.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja, it’s interesting you are mentioning the science. When I was visiting America, I was in New Jersey, and there one devotee had asked me to speak, and about the to come into the hospice, and they are asking them to their medical caregivers about what is the Hindu perspective of end-of-life care, so what is the vision. . . And I had taken your book also at that time, and they took a book for the library.

So now there, because they are specifically, they had asked us to present from Hindu perspective. So I did present and, I was a little hesitant to use the word science. But when I spoke the principles of course, I presented in a universal way, so there are two aspects to it; one is that we say that this is our faith and this is what our tradition teaches us, and another thing is that we actually present the contents of what we have.

So, there is the philosophical aspect which is quite universal you talk about the soul, and the journey of the soul, and the idea of our action, we being accountable for our actions, and our consciousness at the time of death determining things. So, that is quite universal, the specifics of what we do at the time of death, say the Krishna conception of God, the specific mantras we chant, the images that we keep next to us and some of the rituals that we practice, say they can seem a little specific to a particular tradition, and in those circles they may not call it sectarian. But they won’t see that as universal so, when you say it’s a universal or it’s science. . . Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, it’s a science in that it teaches universal principles and it has nothing to do with whether one is a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, or whatever. Although people may associate some elements of Vaishnavism with a particular religious tradition, those elements are not required of the patient who’s reaching the end-of-life.

I mean for me wearing a dhoti and kurta is favorable because it reminds me of Srila Prabhupada and of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also. So, it has some value in terms of smaraṇam, remembering. But that would be somewhat esoteric as far as people in general. But yeah, it’s really a great blessing to help someone on their final journey so to speak, it’s a great blessing to be able to serve them in that way.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. So, when you say that the principles are universal. So, this is, and then there are specifics which are not essential; this itself is also a very, you could say, very inclusive understanding of bhakti rather than more like exclusive understanding.

So, in a sense if we are practicing when you said that when you wear dhoti, kurta, I thought you will say it will help you remember Krishna, and of course what you said, you will remember Prabhupada because of course Prabhupada wore those, that was a very, in a surprising, but illuminating explanation that you gave.

So, in one sense for these specific cultural practices could we apply that principle of say, ānukūlyasya saṅkalpaḥ prātikūlyasya varjanam-that accept what is favorable. And then we give the principles to people, and then whichever of the specifics they feel favorable for them, they will take it up?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah.

Chaitanya Charan: And so, when you said that you had gone to that Houston hospital and you gave a talk over there, so overall, how much is the awareness of the, say, of the Vaishnava traditions insights that can be provided? You said people were very open to it, that means they didn’t know much about it beforehand. So, is it that mostly there is not much awareness of all this. . . even in the hospice field about our traditions say rich contributions that are available?

Giriraj Swami: They didn’t know much. They didn’t know much, they were pretty much Christians although there was one man who looked oriental, I think he was Buddhist. But yeah, they’re very open, very interested, very appreciative, and they could see the universality of it.

Chaitanya Charan: Okay, and well, have you had any experiences that you would like to share of say people who were new and their exposure to Vaishnavism, or that first, or major exposure to Vaishnavism was during the sage of hospice, and then that helped them. Are there any experiences like that Maharaja, that you would like to share?

Giriraj Swami: I can’t say about patients but I can say about staff.

Chaitanya Charan: Oh, that’s information. Yes, please.

Giriraj Swami: When I was like one of the major stepping stones on this path, for me was my visit to San Diego hospice and palliative care. So they asked me to speak about, you could say death and dying from the Vedic perspective. They were very impressed by our philosophy and practices. In fact, after my presentation at the hospice, some of the staff wanted to come to our temple in San Diego and join the kirtan and hear the discourse.

So, yeah it definitely has the power to influence people. But my experience at the hospice was really with the staff, I wasn’t dealing with the patients there, and the patients at our hospice in Vrindavan they all go about Krishna consciousness.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. So, as of now the hospice in Vrindavan, is that the only hospice in our movement, Maharaja?

Giriraj Swami: I think, it’s the only you could say freestanding facility. As I mentioned, mother Sangita has been training devotees to give the end-of-life care. She has what she calls Vaishnavas care teams who can be summoned when needed. I know that there is awareness of it in Alachua, which is such a big devotee community in America and there was talk about having a hospice in Alachua. But I don’t know if they actually have a hospice facility, but they are aware of the principle of end-of-life care and their devotees who’ve been taught by mother Sangita to give end-of-life care.

I heard there was some interest to do something like a hospice in Mayapur, and some devotee or devotees in Mayapur wrote to me to get information which I supplied. But I don’t know to what extent they’ve moved forward, but they were definitely thinking to have a hospice in Mayapur. In my opinion, it would be wonderful to have a hospice in Mayapur.

Chaitanya Charan: You already have a whole city there, almost like a town which is quite big. So, Maharaja, you chose Vrindavan for the hospice, was that circumstantial because Arca Vigraha Mataji departed there, and Prabhupada also departed there, or was it a conscious choice that Vrindavan and not Mayapur?

Giriraj Swami: Oh yeah, I mean I had a base in Vrindavan. I mean mother Arca Vigraha’s house. I would visit Mayapur for Gaura-purnima. But mostly I would spend my time in Vrindavan. Mother Arca Vigraha was there and there was land available.

At one stage the devotees wanted to make a Prabhupada park in Vrindavan and somehow that project never really developed. But they had that land for the Prabhupada park. And so, I found out who I guess you could say the trustees were for the land or the promoters were for the park. I explained the hospice project and they were very happy to hand over that land to us to use for the hospice. So, it seemed like it was meant to be in Vrindavan. Mother Arca Vigraha left there, Srila Prabhupada left there, and I was spending more time there, much more time there than in Mayapur.

Chaitanya Charan: Maharaja, earlier you mentioned one thing about literature, that literature is also one way you can contribute. So, as of now is your book the only literature that we have? Satyaraja Prabhu has written a book on death and dying, it’s more like a comparison or compilation of various traditions, including our tradition. But from our traditions’ perspective as of now, is your book the only one that is there?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, and mother Sangita’s, The Final Journey.

Chaitanya Charan: Yeah, that’s more of hands-on care, but it’s not I mean there is not so much of the theology, or philosophy it is there, but it’s not so much of exposition’s more of a hands-on care book.

Giriraj Swami: There might be. Let me just see, I have a death and dying section in my book, in my library. I knew there was one more, I have my little section on death and dying. Although I can’t, this is by Bhakti Puruṣottama Swami, it’s called, The Final Call. It has some good points, I’ll just read the different sections: section one—Understanding Death; section two—Overcoming Death; section three-Hell after Death; section four-Death and the Lord; section five—Glorious Departures. This is an interesting section because most of my, I mean my books tell about the departures of our contemporaries. But his section five—Glorious Departures; the death of King Citraketu’s son, the death of Srivasa Pandita’s son, the death of Vṛtrāsura, Bharata Maharaja, and then the glorious departure of Srila Prabhupada, the disappearance of Srila Gour Govinda Swami, and reflections on the departure of HH Bhakti-Tirtha Swami; and then section 6-Appendixes, Srila Prabhupada on death, near-death experiences, what does Mahābhārata says about them, so there is one more book.

Chaitanya Charan: So, this seems to be more in the genre of like Many Moons than your death and dying because at least the examples are very directly devotional. In one sense that would be, it would be more suited for a devotee audience or Indian audience who is familiar with the stories. I don’t think people can relate with the demons dying as a story of or suppose Vṛtrāsura dying. It’ll be a little too far out for new people. So, but your book, when we went through that book and I noticed that you have kept it a very very universal, very accessible to everyone.

Giriraj Swami: Yes that was the intention, that was the intention. In fact, as usual with my first three books, I printed in America first. Then I took the American edition to India and printed there and asked them to come up to the American standard. But in Life’s Final Exam I found that although it was really designed for a general audience, I found that there were still things in the first printing in America that could be a little challenging for new people to understand.

So, in the second printing in India, I went through the whole text again and I removed the passages. The sentences or the passages that I thought would be difficult. So, I have the two editions, I have copies of both editions with me, and I’m very mindful-with devotees it’s fine they can have the original one but with new people, I’m very careful to give them, you could say second edition. The second edition that I printed it in India that addressed a few areas that I perceived could be problematic for a new person to comprehend.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. So, you mentioned that further literature, if somebody is to write something more because the literature contribution in one sense, would you have some thoughts of what somebody could write?

Because there are a lot of devotees who nowadays want to write, of course writing a book is a big thing, but writing some articles or going in that genre. So, there are different ways in which we can present the introductory, there are many different ways to introduce people to Krishna consciousness- through yoga, environmentalism, self-help. But in the genre of in this end-of-life, your book is, would be the foundation in our movement, not just because you wrote it first, but also because it is quite comprehensive, in terms of having first the philosophical section, and then a gamut of experiences, not just of say practitioners, movement’s practitioners or cultural practitioners, but even others.

So, if somebody is to write in this genre what kind of contribution do you think, what would be the way to write in that?

Giriraj Swami: Well, writing is a matter of inspiration. I mean, if someone is inspired to write about death and dying it, I feel would be a very welcome contribution to the literature. But what approach they take would really be up to them. What they want to communicate, and as Bhurijana Prabhu sometimes said; “you learn what you had to say when you write.” Because sometimes we don’t even know, we know we want to say something but we don’t know exactly what we want to say. But then when you start putting it down on paper you realize, yes this is what I wanted to say.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes, fine that’s it this. I think this is almost every writer’s experience. I also realize we don’t use words just to express thoughts, we use them to discover thoughts also, so that’s true.

So, overall, how has been the response to your book in the general community, and have you used it for giving talks or to reach out to the hospice world we could say?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, yeah, people appreciate what’s in the book when they hear it from my mouth. And then they appreciate what’s in the book when they read the book.

Now, with the lockdowns and everything, not going out to talks. But yeah but I’ve heard from many non-devotees or maybe I should say yeah; I’ve heard from non-devotees and I’ve heard from devotees who know non-devotees who really appreciated the book, Life’s Final Exam and some of them said they wish they’d come across it earlier because it would have helped them deal with some end-of-life situations. But it is very accessible to ordinary people so to speak. Yeah, I’ve got very positive feedback.

Chaitanya Charan: Maharaja, most of this podcast viewers are in India, so if they want to get a copy of the book is it available on Amazon, or is there someplace where they can contact for getting the books?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, I mean yes, Amazon. I think most of the big temples have the books and definitely Juhu has them, Vrindavan has them, I think Mayapur has them. That’s nice if they get the books.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes, definitely. Maharaja. So, you have also been writing a book on the Juhu temple, has that been. I mean I’m moving from the hospice subject to some general questions now, would you like to add something about hospice further, before we move on?

Giriraj Swami: No, we can move on.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. So, how is your book on the Juhu temple coming now? Is it out, or because of the lockdown it would be delayed or how is it?

Giriraj Swami: This is it. I’ll Build You a Temple: The Juhu Story.

Chaitanya Charan: I think when we had discussed it, you had said a promise fulfilled, an attempt something like that was, you change the subtitle after that?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that was my original thought of the subtitle, “A good fight and a promise fulfilled,” but I discussed with a few devotees and especially Indradyumna Swami, he thought it was too long. He suggested some shorter options and one of them was “the Juhu story” and we all sort of like that, I’ll Build You a Temple: The Juhu Story.

Chaitanya Charan: Oh okay. Oh, so you get that. There is a website also by that name-beautiful, okay. Was this officially launched? Because I have not seen this in India until now so much.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. So, we launched it. Because the Juhu temple opened on Makara-sankranti in January of 1978, exactly two months after Srila Prabhupada left, and so we launched it on this Makara-sankranti, which is always January 14th.

Chaitanya Charan: Oh, so it’s just five days. That’s amazing.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, it was a glorious event, it was a glorious event.

Chaitanya Charan: Okay. So, it’s coincidental or Krishna arrangement that soon after the launch of this book we had this podcast. We have been planning to do it for almost seven-eight months now.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, it was a good time, it was good you asked about it.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. Would you like to share something about this book and how it originated, and what it contains?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, well I’ll read two quotations, oh three excuse me, three quotations from the back cover. Not by me, but they, so first is from Srila Prabhupada, “It was a good fight, someone should write a book about it” and then he said, “It is worth writing, history.”

Then from HH Radhanath Swami, “I’ll Build You a Temple transports us into one of the great events of our time. Giriraj Swami gives us personal witness into the life of Srila Prabhupada at a time when Prabhupada faced insurmountable odds at every step. The story reveals Prabhupada’s unwavering faith, indomitable courage, and profound humility. . . I’ll Build You a Temple is a contemporary narration that shares the emotions, excitement, and message of sacred texts such as the Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and Bhagavad-gītā, whose conclusive teachings are revealed through the lives of great souls, such as Srila Prabhupada, who battle and ultimately vanquish powerful enemies against seemingly insurmountable odds. . . Srila Prabhupada said that his project in Bombay was his heart.” 

And then from HH Gopal Krishna Goswami, “Srila Prabhupada spent more time in Bombay—554 days—than in any other city in the world. And that indicates the significance of the Juhu project—and of this book. In I’ll Build You a Temple, Giriraj Maharaja has translated his long years of commendable involvement in the leadership of ISKCON Juhu as well as his intense desire to serve Srila Prabhupada’s instruction to him to write into a riveting, thoughtful, and inspiring book. I welcome you all to take a dip in the nectarean pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Rasabihari in Juhu, which glorify Their pure devotee Srila Prabhupada.”

Chaitanya Charan: That’s beautiful! I was thinking it is some of the few books that Prabhupada probably directly told someone to write.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that’s true.

Chaitanya Charan: Yeah, I think he told Svarupa Damodara Maharaja to write on Krishna consciousness, scientific basis. But apart from that I don’t think that; I mean he told devotees to write in general, but not a specific book.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, yeah. Srila Prabhupada’s disciple Hari Swari, who is Prabhupada’s secretary for many years. He was also very excited that this is a book that Srila Prabhupada specifically asked to be written, and now it’s written.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes, all right. I haven’t read the latest version, but when I read the earlier version that you had shared with me. Now, it is such, you could say, a focused and intimate picture of Prabhupada. Through Līlāmṛta we get a very broad overview of Prabhupada’s life, that’s also very sweet. And then through Hari Swari Prabhu’s book, we get a, it’s like a chronicle, because it’s going through various places and he is traveling.

So, how Prabhupada’s vision manifests at a particular place, and how he works in a focused way. So, that intimate your experience with Prabhupada and focused on a particular project. I don’t think there is any book which is like that, we have had many books about Srila Prabhupada and they are all nectarian but that, it’s both the life story of a project and a life story of Srila Prabhupada as we could say, incubated and manifested the project.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah.

Chaitanya Charan: That’s nice. So, devotees, if they want this book, it’s available. I’ll probably check the website, and we can get it. This will be wonderful Maharaja.

So, are there any, maybe concluding one or two incidents you’d like to share from the book? Something which is especially maybe inspiring or revealing about Prabhupada’s dedication or compassion?

Giriraj Swami: Well, Back to Godhead magazine in America planned to have a book excerpt. They regularly publish book excerpts. Then along with the book excerpt have a full-page ad on the back page on the back cover for the book. So, I sent them a few dramatic incidents and they chose the one about the demolition of the temple. Although there was another really good one but it was, I’m not sure that why they didn’t take that one, but there is so much nectar in this, I’m not let me see what might be good to read.

“Well, this thing that came to mind is not something I would have ever imagined would come into my mind, but it did so it may be in an odd way, it’s related to death and dying. One Sunday as I was walking through the streets of Dhobitalao, that’s South Bombay, briefcase in hand on my way to meet someone. I happened to stop for a moment by the metro cinema to look at the periodicals on sale along the sidewalk, something I generally never did; standing on the busy corner with traffic rushing from all directions, I glanced at the newspaper headlines, big black bold letters jumped out from one front-page, quote ‘A.B. Nair dead,’ and directly under the headline was the photo of Mr. Nair. I couldn’t believe it, A.B Nair dead, how could it be? The paper was the Bharat Jyoti, the Sunday edition of the free press journal, B. Nair had been the editor. I was jubilant, I felt like dancing and ecstasy, but then I wondered if that was the proper way for Vaishnava to respond. I’m supposed to be developing saintly qualities, I reflected, maybe I should be feeling sorry.

Still, I could not contain my exultation and I rushed back to our flat in Colaba to share the news. Bali Mardan, the most senior devotee there suggested we called Srila Prabhupada, and went out to look for a phone. I decided I should go to Juhu; the devotees there had already heard the news and had been rejoicing and celebrating, chanting, and distributing sweets.

But I was still uncertain, was this the proper way for a Vaishnava to behave?

When Bali Mardan phoned Auckland to inform Prabhupada of Nair’s death, the phone call came during Prabhupada’s morning massage, just before lunchtime. Srutakirti was sitting on the floor behind him, massaging his back, with [Inaudible] and Satsvarupa nearby. [Inaudible] took the call, and then Srutakirti came to the phone. After just a few minutes, Srutakirti ran back into the room: ‘Srila Prabhupada, he said. That was Bali Mardan on the phone, he wanted to tell you that Mr. Nair is dead.’ Srila Prabhupada joined his hands together above his head as if in prayer, ‘Oh, thank you, Krishna,’ he said, ‘I prayed that Krishna would kill him, he caused us so much difficulty, he gave so much trouble to the devotees. I was praying that Krishna would do something to this demon, and he quoted a verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.9.14: 

tad yaccha manyum asuraś ca hatas tvayādya
modeta sādhur api vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā
lokāś ca nirvṛtim itāḥ pratiyanti sarve
rūpaṁ nṛsiṁha vibhayāya janāḥ smaranti

Prahlada Maharaja said, “Even a saintly person becomes pleased when a snake or a scorpion is killed. Mr. Nair was a big snake, so it is very good.” Later that day, Prabhupada wrote to us in Bombay, quote: “This morning Srutakirti received telephonic message from Bali Mardan, it is understood that Mr. Nair is dead, so it is good news that Nṛsiṁhadeva has killed a demon like him, it is a matter of great pleasure for all devotees.”

So, I was concerned whether it’s proper to feel happy with the news that Nair had died. But Srila Prabhupada quoting this verse from Prahlada Maharaja, “even a saintly person becomes pleased when a snake or scorpion is killed,” so then I felt it was justified.

Chaitanya Charan: Yeah, it’s nice. It’s amazing that at one level, and I was thinking about three two-three different perspectives, the situation if somebody who doesn’t know anything about what all Mr. Nair had done, they would feel shocked that somebody is feeling happy and distributing sweets at the death of someone.

So, it could be quite shocking, but you were hands-on, so that is you could say, one extreme reaction or one typical reaction we could say. The other is that those who knew what he had done, he had actually tried to attack and with manhandled devotees, threatened devotees, tried to destroy the temple, and done so many things, so the appellate demon is actually not an exaggeration. If you consider what he did, if you consider demoniac to be a mentality then, definitely he had that so. You bore the brunt of most of it because you were the leader over there, in spite of that you had that hesitation.

So other devotees they were celebrating but it’s revealing about how, I would say, how compassionate you are that even somebody who had it was not just, you were so kind and saying he troubled the devotees. But probably he troubled you also in a sense you were troubled hugely by him. Still, you didn’t, you still had that hesitation so, that is, that is remarkable. Yes, it’s so compassionate of you. But there is also the back story, I think that Prabhupada, although Prabhupada was still compassionate to his wife and she eventually came and agreed so, there was no, in a sense, there was no animosity or hard feelings.

Giriraj Swami: No, no. . .

Chaitanya Charan: Yes Maharaja. So, we could say that this is almost, this is almost the opposite of a way a devotee would ever want to die. The devotees want the blessings of, if we want the blessings that of devotees, and our spiritual guides when we are going to depart, not that we want to have them see us as an obstacle.

So yes, Maharaja. And just one more thought I had when you were reading this, that the Prabhupada’s response was actually and I was praying to Krishna that he be that something happened. And, when you got that reply, so did you feel sort of conformed, revindicated, or how would you explain that emotion to somebody who is saying, who is new to bhakti? In that sense, normally, we would never want to harm anyone but it is somebody who harms in such a severe way, how would you am I making myself clear? and I just don’t want somebody who has not read the book to, or not read about the Juhu story so much, I don’t think there’ll be many like that but it can be a little jarring, so such an action, how do we in such an incident, how do we see a devotee’s compassion? So, your hesitation itself is your compassion in one sense, but in general when, how do we understand that principle of even the saintly people being happy in such situations?

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, well Prahlada statement was spoken to Nṛsiṁhadeva, after Nṛsiṁhadeva killed the demon, Hiranyakasipu, who was Prahlada’s father. After Nṛsiṁhadeva killed Hiranyakasipu, He was still angry. His anger did not subside immediately, and Prahlada apprehending that Nṛsiṁhadeva might have thought that Prahlada might not be happy with Him because He killed Prahlada’s father, so Prahlada uttered these words.

Chaitanya Charan: That’s an amazing realization. He was reassuring the Lord, I am not unhappy with you. Never thought of this prayer like that.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, that’s the context. So, yeah, it’s such an amazing philosophy, amazing culture. That yeah, that you can take pleasure. And Srila Prabhupada also, was sort of surprised during the grihastha ashram he visited his Guru Maharaja in Mayapur, and his Guru Maharaja came out on the balcony and he saw in the garden, in front of his house a snake, and he ordered the disciples to kill it.

And, Srila Prabhupada describes that at the time he was very surprised that. . . oh Guru Maharaja ordered the disciples to kill the snake. Because generally, devotees are non-violent, but then Srila Prabhupada came across this verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam; modeta sādhur api vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā, “even a saintly person becomes pleased when a snake or a scorpion is killed,” then he realized that, yes, Guru Maharaja did the right thing.

Chaitanya Charan: So, this is. Thank you for sharing this extraordinary incident from your book Maharaja, and also for this explanation. There is so much nectar in that book. I hope that the picture of Prabhupada that you are gifted to the world, more and more devotees as well as those who are coming to Krishna they can relish that picture.

Giriraj Swami: So, where are you right now?

Chaitanya Charan: I am in the Govardhana Eco Village Maharaja, thank you.

Chaitanya Charan: So, usually toward the end of the podcast I try to summarize what we had discussed, and then if you like you can have some concluding words if you’d like to share.

So, today we discussed about this topic of end-of-life care and bhakti wisdom, because we went to a lot of territories. I’ll try to broadly cover, so you talked about how you became, although it’s our philosophy talks about it, your specific journey began with Arca Vigraha Mataji’s diagnosis and then her departure, and then that’s how the hospice ideas started, and then almost seven-eight years, five-six years later, it manifested and you were among the first or second hospices in India, the first in a holy place, and I’m sure that must have required a lot of effort.

Just thinking that you had to get people from India to come from, get people to come to San Diego to get the training for that; that itself indicates how much herculean efforts you put in to make that happen. Then there it’s is, that the hospice is at one level providing care to people in the hospice as well as helping family members take care of people at their homes, and then we talked about how in those who come into hospice care, they are naturally spiritually inclined, otherwise it will become too morbid for them. As devotees we our tradition it is it has a lot of it is, although all traditions talk about having a, I mean remembering the Lord at the time of death, but our tradition offers far more resources for remembering, many pastimes of the Lord and many names of the Lord, and many different devotional activities that we can do, so in that sense we have a rich resource. Through your literature, I think you have been the pioneer in making the wisdom of the bhakti tradition available for those who are in this field of hospice care.

So, this is also one of the areas in which people are becoming more elevated in their consciousness and being receptive to spirituality. And so in the way you told me about, I didn’t know that in the second edition of your book, you had carefully edited to make the book more accessible to new people, so this is.

We also discussed how this is an area where devotees can actually enter into a profession also which is very congenial to spirituality. Because we can ourselves gain spiritual realizations and share spiritual wisdom. So, then you talked about how our, the principles of the Bhagavad-gītā, and the bhakti tradition are universal, and there are certain specifics, but like say you are talking about wearing dhoti kurta, which reminds me of Srila Prabhuji. That is something which is, that is not the central thing, so if you present the principles then people can appreciate that not only do we have a profound philosophy, but it’s a science to help people aid them in their final stages of their life.

And you also shared your experiences of how people have been, the caregiver, the staff, has been appreciative, they even came to the temple that is generally they try to stay a little detached because that profession is like that but, for them to come it was quite remarkable to hear.

And then we also discussed about devotees that they can contribute to writing in this area, one is of course the word is going to hospice care, the other is that devotees learn that skills for themselves in case their family members are there, so you mentioned about Sangita Mataji providing online courses as well as personal as well as training through courses, and then if some devotees want to write, writing is very individual, so after we write we actually find out what we wanted to say, but there is a lot which you said, that will welcome contribution in this area somebody wants to write.

And then toward the end we discussed about Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to you about writing this book, and writing the book on the on the Juhu project. So, you shared some very at once a challenging, as well as illuminating pastime from that book, and also I think the back matter of the book that you shared is very inspiring; how different questions are appreciated enough. This was, so among the few books that Prabhupada directly wanted us wanted to be written.

So, thank you very much for sharing all this wisdom and nectar, Maharaja. It is sobering but still at the same time, it’s inspiring to see that as a moment we have, we are providing more and more resources for our devotees. As you said it has happened in Vrindavan, and devotees are becoming more and more elsewhere, so you have been a pioneer for this. And thank you for sparing your time today for sharing your experiences here thank you, Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: Okay. This is a beautiful summary.

Chaitanya Charan: You would like to add any concluding words, Maharaja. . .

Giriraj Swami: I just had one thought while you were speaking. Some years ago, I went to visit the hospice in Santa Barbara. They had posted a list of lectures, death, I don’t know, death and dying in the Jewish tradition, death and dying in the Christian tradition, death and dying in the Buddhist tradition. They had a whole series. But there was no death and dying in the Hindu tradition, and that highlighted to me the lack of information available on that topic which the book Life’s Final Exam, remedies. So, now if anyone wants to know our perspective, they can get it.

And another little anecdote, I would go to a chiropractor in Santa Barbara. His office was just less than a block away from a theater, not a movie theater. So, one night a hospice nurse gave up, well it was a short film, I think maybe forty-five minutes about her work as a hospice nurse; it’s called The Nurse with the Purple Hair, and it’s funny how it came about. Well I don’t want to digress too much, but anyway the film was made by a Hollywood filmmaker, who specialized in horror films. But somehow, he met her, they were at some fair and somehow, she was assigned to him, and he asked her what she does, and she said “I’m a hospice nurse” she said. He was looking at her, and she said “do you have a problem with that?” and he said “no, no I don’t,” and then as he found out about what she did, he got inspired to make that movie The Nurse with the Purple Hair.

So, it showed in that theater and she was present both of them, she and the filmmaker were present. Afterwards I met her in the lobby, and I told her about the hospice in Vrindavan, and Life’s Final Exam. She took down the details, she wanted to get Life’s Final Exam. So, it was, it was nice. And she was an another example of a spiritual person who was in hospice care, like I said, you can’t go into that field without being spiritual, otherwise it’s too morbid. So yeah, she was a very nice lady.

Chaitanya Charan: Yes, and as you were saying, I was thinking that now today is the age of social media and videos. So probably something about the Vaishnava contribution to hospice care, if there were some kind of documentary or video that would reach a large number of people, and maybe our discussion today can start something in future who knows. Some, we have a very talented devotee community, and that will come about.

Thank you for sharing that anecdote Maharaja, and thank you very much for your time and your association, really uplifting and edifying to hear all that you discussed. Thank you. Humble obeisances.

Giriraj Swami: Thank you for calling me and inviting me.

Chaitanya Charan: Thank you very much. Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! HH Giriraj Swami Maharaja ki jaya! Thank you.

Giriraj Swami: Gaura-bhakta-vṛnda ki jaya! So, if we are going to end now. I suggest we conclude with Vaishnava praṇāma, is that all right?

Chaitanya Charan: Yes, please.

Giriraj Swami: Let us offer our respectful obeisances unto all the Vaishnava devotees of the Lord. They can fulfill the desires of everyone and they are full of compassion for the fallen souls.

vāñchā-kalpa-tarubhyaś ca
kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca
patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo
vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ

Ananta-koṭi vaiṣṇava-vṛnda ki jaya! Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Chaitanya Charan: Thank you, Maharaja.