The Early History of ISKCON in Pakistan

Giriraj Swami: So, I would like to request all the participants on Zoom, as far as possible, to put on your cameras so we can see your moon-like faces. and it will be more personal.

Host: Maharaja, today, many centers from Pakistan have joined. Swami Narayana temple, the devotees are standing there and from their side, they have joined Gaura-Nitai Bhawan, and even the new inauguration, new temple has been inaugurated in Balochistan, so they are outside also the devotees have joined today and they made kirtan and they offered you kirtan before your arrival, or joining this meeting.

Giriraj Swami: Wonderful, wonderful, excellent. So, I will speak about the early history of ISKCON in Pakistan, and then will you translate sentence by sentence?

Jaya! Hare Krishna, Sri Radha.

Sri Radha: Hare Krishna, Guru Maharaja. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Your Divine Grace. All glories to the devotees. So nice to have your association.

Giriraj Swami: So, to begin, I will give a little background as to how the idea of going to Pakistan first came up. Srila Prabhupada had a disciple from Iran named Mars Attar, a senior partner in an international accounting firm. Prabhupada initiated him as Atreya Rsi dasa. Atreya Rsi dasa was a brilliant person in general, and particularly, in finance. And Prabhupada encouraged him to return to Iran from America and to begin Krishna consciousness there. So, he did.

In 1977, Atreya Rsi stopped in Karachi on his way to India for the Mayapur festival and spent a few days there. And from Karachi, he went to Bombay, met Srila Prabhupada in Juhu, and told him his ideas for Pakistan. He said that there were still many Hindus in Pakistan, and he thought that our first step should be to establish ourselves with them and get their support.

After we were established with them, they, or we with their help, could approach the Muslims. Srila Prabhupada said that the plan was very intelligent. Atreya Rsi also mentioned that Amogh Lila dasa had lived in Pakistan before he joined ISKCON, and that he spoke Urdu and would be the right person to go.

Amogh Lila’s father had been a missionary in the Methodist church, and Amogh Lila had been born in Mussoorie, Dehradun, and had grown up and been educated there. And Amogh Lila was fluent in Hindi and Urdu, and subsequently, when his father had been transferred to Karachi and became something like an archbishop there, Amogh Lila had gone to the University of Karachi. When Atreya Rsi met Srila Prabhupada in Juhu, Amogh Lila was the vice president of the Juhu project, and although Srila Prabhupada encouraged Amogh Lila to go to Pakistan. . . 

Host: There is some voice problem. Please mute your mics. It’s a humble request. Some mics are unmuted by themselves, so I just would like to request that please, so the session could proceed smoothly. It’s my humble request because echo was coming out. Okay, now we’re settled.

Giriraj Swami: But Gopal Krishna Prabhu, now Maharaja, said that Amogh Lila was a key man in Bombay and could not be spared. Srila Prabhupada agreed that it was not good to start a new project while an old one suffered. So, the idea was there, but the time was not right. Then, a few years later, in 1980, the situation in Juhu changed, and Amogh Lila became freer. So, he went to Pakistan and got a wonderful reception.

The background of the Hindu community in Karachi is somewhat complex. Before the partition between India and Pakistan, relations between the Sindhi Muslims and the Sindhi Hindus were very congenial. They had grown up together and were friends, and the Sindhi Muslims did not want the Sindhi Hindus to leave. It was really the Muhajirs, the Muslims who came from India during the partition, who were agitating that the Hindus should leave. As I recall, the Muhajirs, the Muslims who came from India, started the first Hindu-Muslim riot in Karachi, and people were killed and maimed, and then the exodus of Hindus from Pakistan began.

At that time, all the street sweepers in Karachi were Hindus. So, the Muslims were thinking that if the sweepers all left, there wouldn’t be anyone to sweep the streets. So, they approached the Hindus and requested them to stay, promising that they would give them protection. There was a big colony there called “The Bhangi colony” in Karachi, in Narayanpur, which was a Hindu ghetto. It was literally walled in for its residents’ protection. It is part of a general area called Ranchor Line, which also had many Hindus of lower caste, mainly mochis or cobblers, and that was where we found our best reception.

I will never forget the greeting I got when I first went to Narayanapur in late 1981. Amogh Lila had already visited there, so they knew about Krishna consciousness from him. And somehow, the news had spread that I had arrived. Everyone in the whole colony came out. It was the biggest reception I could imagine. Even more heartfelt than the big turnout in Surat when Srila Prabhupada arrived there. They all came out and were banging with spoons on pans, and making this tumultuous sound. And the love, there was so much love coming from them. They took me to their temple in the Bhangi colony, and I sat down and spoke to them. We had kirtan, and it was a big love affair.

Host: Could you please repeat, Maharaja, because I think due to internet instability, I missed your point.

Giriraj Swami: Okay. So, I was saying there was so much love coming from those people in Narayanpur. So, again, they took me to their temple in the Bhangi colony, and I sat down and spoke to them. We had kirtan, and it was all a big love affair. For many months, I felt like Narayanapur was the most special place in ISKCON. Everyone, especially the young people, loved us. The children had more free time and were always with us, and they loved to chant.

There were also different communities within the colony; Gujaratis, Punjabis, Marwaris, and they were very cliquish, they wouldn’t mix with each other. But when we came and introduced Krishna consciousness, the barriers started to break down and everyone would come together and chant with us and hear Bhagavad-gītā. Then, we discovered another community. This was really a God send. I can only imagine that it was Lord Chaitanya’s special arrangement.

At the time of the partition, there was a district of Rajasthan called Tharparkar that got included in Pakistan, even though it was all Hindu. There were no Muslims there, but by some fluke, it was included in Pakistan. The residents of Tharparkar were all Krishna bhaktas.

Host: Pardon, Maharaja. Could you please repeat?

Giriraj Swami: All the residents of that Tharparkar district were Krishna bhaktas.

Host: I would request the participants to please mute yourself. It is creating disturbance. Please mute yourself and other participants who accidentally unmuted.

Giriraj Swami: So, there was a small community of these Hindus from Tharparkar in Karachi who became very good friends of ours. And there were a few Gujaratis, including the Karachi Hindu panchayat chairman, Khoopchand Bhatia. We met only two really prominent Sindhis, because at the time of the partition, almost all the ones who had assets left. One of the prominent Sindhis was P.K. Prem Sahani. Prem Sahani was our main adviser, and he was wise, experienced, and trustworthy.

Giriraj Swami: What’s happening?

Host: We can’t hear you, Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: All right, should I repeat?

Host: Yes, yes, Maharaja, please.

Giriraj Swami: Alright. So, we had a friend named Haresh Gangwani who was a Sindhi businessman, and he had a Muslim friend named Zia, who was friendly to Hindus and was one of the leading lawyers in Karachi and was connected with the government. He liked vegetarian food, and he would eat with Hindus.

He was a nice, intelligent, liberal man and we would visit him regularly. But one day, he said he had gotten a call, or a few calls, including one from someone high up in the government, basically saying, “Why are you spending so much time with the Hare Krishnas?” He was very regretful, but he said, “Unfortunately, you will have to cut down on your visits and be more discrete.” But I knew that the Muslim intellectuals were interested, because of the way our books sold in the bookstores. We were not even sure if bookstores would accept the books because of the Islamic state, but most of them did. Neeta? What about the translation?

Host: The internet was very unstable, so that’s why I disconnected.

Giriraj Swami: Okay. So, I’ll just repeat this part because it’s very important.

Host: Yes, yes.

Giriraj Swami: I knew the Muslim intellectuals were interested, because of the way our books sold in the bookstores. We were not even sure if bookstores would accept the books because of the Islamic state, but most of them did. We had whole sets of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and they sold.

And we thought the customers were Muslims, because other than a few business people, most of the Hindus were poor and could not afford the sets of books. Also, we were always meeting the Hindus and offering them the books. So, if they wanted the books and couldn’t afford them, they probably would have gotten them from us. So, we knew there was interest among the Muslims, but it all had to be kept secret. Shahani also told us, “Your main fear is not the government, it is the Mullahs.”

We began during the presidency of Zia-ul-Haq, and those were actually the golden days of ISKCON in Pakistan. He knew about us and tolerated us and more than that, maybe because we were Americans. I would fly from Bombay to Karachi and smuggle Prabhupada’s books with me, and I would always hope and pray that I could get through customs. But once, when the officers made me open my bags and they saw all the books, they called me into the office. So, while they were discussing what to do, one of them said something about President Zia, “He knows about them and they’re all right,” and they just let me go with all my books.

One highlight was when Khoopchand Bhatia invited President Zia to a dinner in his honor, sponsored by the Karachi Hindu panchayat. He arranged it at one of the big hotels, and the menu was going to be all vegetarian. President Zia agreed to come, but the chief Mullah of Karachi objected. Because if the president went, everyone would have to go; the governor, the inspector general of police, all the ministers from the cabinet, the state government, including the chief minister, and him, the chief Mullah, everyone.

And the chief Mullah was demanding that they serve meat, but Khoopchand Bhatia said, “No.” So, the Mullahs threatened the president, “If you go and they don’t serve meat, we are not going.” But the president went. He was strong. That was the thing, he was strong.

So, the feast was vegetarian, but it was hotel food. Khoopchand Bhatia was strict, he would not eat hotel food, so his wife had cooked at home and brought a tiffin. President Zia was sitting next to him and enjoying the dinner, but when he noticed that Bhatia was eating something different, he asked, “What are you eating?” Bhatia replied, “My wife cooked this,” and President Zia said, “I want to try that,” and he really loved it. He said, “I want the two of you to come to Islamabad and teach us how to cook like this.” That was amazing.

By then, most of the members of the panchayat were either practicing devotees or life members. They were all friends, and one was an initiated devotee. Later, when things got bad, many of them came to India. But during Zia’s time, there was law and order, and we had a lot of good devotees. So, one of our devotees did an invocation with some Sanskrit prayers and then Khoopchand Bhatia gave President Zia a Bhagavad-gītā. The press was there, and the weekly magazine, comparable to the Illustrated Weekly of India, snapped a picture of Bhatia giving the Gītā to Zia, and they ran a whole item in the magazine. It was unprecedented for the president to sit with Hindus and eat with them, and then accept a Bhagavad-gītā. Then Zia died in an air crash in 1986. There were elections and Benazir Bhutto became the prime minister, and things got worse instead of becoming better.

Our friend, Prem Sahani became an advisor in the cabinet of the chief minister of Sindh. And Bhutto was liberal in her outlook. But she was weak and there was a breakdown in law and order. So, even though she was liberal and her rule should have been better for the Hindus, actually, it was worse because with the breakdown in law and order, the fanatic Muslims were free to do whatever they wanted. A few of our friends were assassinated, and many of our best supporters fled to India. But some, including Gangvani and Khoopchand Bhatia, stayed.

There were also a few professors in Pakistan who helped us translate Srila Prabhupada’s books. One of our good friends from the Tharparkar district, who settled in Karachi, was Professor Mohanlal Chaudhary. We would go to his home and Amogh Lila would read the Sindhi translation, and Professor Chaudhary would say in English what he thought Amogh Lila had read. In that way, Amogh Lila would see if the Sindhi was really conveying what Srila Prabhupada meant.

It was Krishna, everything that happened there. We couldn’t have done it on our own. There was a famous ghazal singer, the most famous in Pakistan, named Gulam Fareed. He was based in Lahore, but he would come to Karachi to perform. So, one day, just see how Krishna arranged things, one day, Fareed came into a Sufi temple in Karachi, and Amogh Lila happened to be there. Sufis are more open. So, Amogh Lila was there playing on a mridanga, and Fareed asked, “Are you a musician?” “No,” Amogh Lila replied, “I’m not really a musician. I’m a devotee of Krishna, but we play music as part of our worship.”

One night, not during that visit but another time, Fareed came down from Lahore and performed at some rich man’s house in Karachi. The rich people there really flaunted their wealth. So, he had a big mansion and a huge garden. Karachi can get really hot, so to avoid the heat, the concert was from nine p.m. to five a.m., which was quite common, since because it was so hot, people slept during the day and stayed up in the night. So, four or five of us devotees went, and all these modern aristocratic Muslims, the women not in burkas but in silk sarees and jewelry, were present.

And Fareed sang. And while he performed, ladies would go up to him and throw money or give him jewelry. At some stage, not that late, maybe eleven o’clock, he asked us to lead. We felt shy but he insisted, so we came up. I felt we should sing Jaya Radha-Madhava because I knew there was a sect of Muslims that were into Vrindavan. And there had been a famous Muslim poet, a few hundred years earlier, Shah Abdul Bhittai, the poet of Sindh, and it appears from his writings that he had lived in Vrindavan. People say he was vegetarian, and he wrote beautiful lyrical poetry about Vrindavan and Krishna’s flute and the cows.

I had met one of the Muslims who knew about him, and somehow, they’d had some idea about Vrindavan and the flute and the cows. So, we sang Jaya Radha-Madhava and translated it, and the people loved it. Some even came up and placed rupees at our feet. So, that was a highlight, but I think the biggest program came on one Diwali. Things had changed. When we had first gotten to Pakistan, the Hindus were timid and fearful. They had no presence, no identity, and we showed that you could be a Hindu and not be persecuted.

Somehow, with the combination of us and Khoopchand Bhatia and the Hindu panchayat and all the devotees we had in the panchayat, the Hindus became more open. So, the Hindus decided to have a big Diwali program, and they rented a big theater in downtown Karachi and invited us to take part. The chief minister and many of the state cabinet members and different Muslim dignitaries attended. It was a huge auditorium, and there were maybe a thousand people. Many were Hindus, of course, but also a lot of Muslims. The organizers did not give us much time because it was a cultural event. They had singers and dancers, and we had only ten to twenty minutes, so we had to really plan our part.

I spoke briefly about the holy name, we did kirtan, and then I asked the audience to join in responsively. I had not been sure if I would do that or not and I didn’t know whether or not they would respond but I just couldn’t miss the opportunity. So, I began Hare Krishna, and then they would chant Hare Krishna. I would say Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, and I got them to stand up. Even the big Muslims were participating. It was unbelievable, overwhelming. Afterwards, I was in so much ecstasy, I could not sleep that night.

I will tell maybe one more story. There is a place between Sindh and Punjab called Multan. Srila Prabhupada wrote that some historians say that Hiranyakasipu’s palace was in the city of Multan, and that Prahlada Maharaja was born there. So, in Multan is a place called Prahladpur, where there are the remains of an old palace temple. Once, Amogh Lila led an expedition of devotees there, and as always, they did not know what to expect. That site was under government control, but although the caretaker hesitated, he let the devotees in and they did kirtan.

When they asked, “Why are you allowing us?” The caretaker said that the palace temple was a very special place. In the past, the government had tried to dismantle the temple, but whenever anyone would try to break the stones or take away the bricks, there would be some calamity. The person would fall off a ladder and die, or a stone would fall on him and kill him. So, after a while, they got the idea that there was a charm on the place, and that they should rather leave it alone. They knew that there was something special there, and the caretaker understood that we were somehow part of it, so he let the devotees in and they did kirtan.

It is there in Srila Prabhupada’s purport to Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Chapter Nine, Text Ten.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

According to the opinion of some historians, Prahlāda Mahārāja was born in Tretā-yuga in the city of Multan, in the state of Punjab. He was born of Hiraṇyakaśipu, a king of the dynasty of Kaśyapa.

COMMENT

So, Multan is also called Kashyapapur. Preaching in Pakistan was one of the most enlivening and exhilarating experiences of my life. And Srila Prabhupada had said, “Anyone who preaches in the Muslim countries, I take the dust of his feet on my head.” So, that is a brief history of the beginning of Krishna consciousness in Pakistan.

Now, if there’s time, the participants can ask questions or make comments.

Devotee: Hare Krishna.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, Shammukand Prabhuji is saying, “I belong to a place. The name of that place was given by Maharaja, that was Kirtanand colony.”

Giriraj Swami: Okay.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): So, he is reminding that the colony name was given by His Holiness Giriraj Maharaja. He is just reminding that on the name ceremony of that day, there was actually Amogh Lila Prabhu there, Kirtanananda Swami Maharaja there and so many other devotees, and that was a very exhilarating experience. Thank you so much for sharing such beautiful realizations of the past.

Devotee: Hare Krishna.

Host: Hare Krishna. Kanaaiya Prabhuji, please unmute yourself and you can ask a question or query.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Fantastic question. Maharaja, Kanaaiya Prabhuji has recently shifted to South Africa, one of these states, there is Benin. So, he has shifted there, and he would like to request to know how to build a Krishna conscious community over there, because your experience is best practice for us, as you started the journey here, and now it’s full-fledged kingdom of Krishna consciousness, sort of. So, he’s saying, “How can I build a community over there? And there is literally a negligible Hindu community, mostly residing people are Christians, actually. So, your enlightenment and guidance would be really appreciable.”

Giriraj Swami: Okay. Where is he?

Host: South Africa, Benin city.

Devotee: West Africa, Cotonou.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, West Africa. Yeah, that makes more sense. Yeah, how far are you from Nigeria?

Devotee: Four hours far from Nigeria.

Giriraj Swami: Two hours?

Devotee: Four hours, Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I went to Nigeria. I was the first ISKCON devotee to go there, and we do have many devotees in Nigeria. And even in Nigeria, we met many Christians and we made friends with them. And one Christian’s minister, he invited me to speak to his congregation. [Unintelligible 01:19:04]. Neeta, are you going to translate this, or we’re not going to translate the questions and answers?

Host: Yeah, I’ll translate. Yeah.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Okay. Maharaja, there is also a language barrier there. French is the most preferred language over there, and English is really not that much received. So, that’s another issue.

Giriraj Swami: Well, you have to find someone who knows English and French and get them to help you, translate for you.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, such sort of person is there, but he is also Christian, maybe he is a staunch Christian.

Giriraj Swami: Well, he could be Christian, but he’ll translate for you. If he’s a friend, he will translate for you.

Host: Maharaja, what are other steps for starting from the scratch level in any territory? Please enlighten us.

Giriraj Swami: We did it in Nigeria. We did it in many places. Srila Prabhupada said, “You just go to a park.” Well, we did hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana in the cities, but otherwise, Prabhupada said, “You just go to a park and sit down and chant Hare Krishna, and then when people gather round and they ask, ‘What is this crazy person doing?’ Then you tell them about Krishna and the Bhagavad-gītā and the holy name.

Host: Yes, thank you very, very much Maharaja. Thank you very much for a nice question. Any other questions? Prem Chand Prabhuji would like to ask a question. Prem Chand Prabhuji, please unmute yourself and ask.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, there are two questions, actually. Shall I continue?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): One is, “Is there any occurrence of Prabhupada’s arrival into Pakistan? Because some of the devotees are saying that he came to the airport and he went back, but he didn’t enter the actual territory of Pakistan?” And the second question is, “How to expand preaching activities in Pakistan?”

Giriraj Swami: The first question, I also heard that Srila Prabhupada was on a flight to Bombay, and that flight stopped in Karachi. So, it’s true that he did land in Karachi.

Well, of course, to preach to the Muslims, we need some special approach. And as I mentioned, we put Srila Prabhupada’s books, sets of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and other books in bookstores, where Muslims can buy them. So, it’s very important that people can get Srila Prabhupada’s books. Of course, they will get it, but I’m talking here about Muslims.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, there is a concern that most of the people are really not literate, actually. So, how to make them inclined towards reading books. This is another concern.

Giriraj Swami: Oh, who is not literate? The devotees?

Host: Devotees and surrounding people.

Giriraj Swami: Well, if they can’t read, we can have classes where we read from the books and speak, because they must hear the philosophy from Srila Prabhupada’s books. I want to say one more thing.

Host: Yes, Maharaja. Please continue.

Giriraj Swami: If the devotees know Hindi, Srila Prabhupada did give a lot of classes in Hindi.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Subhadra Mataji is asking a question that we are having association and we are chanting, but we don’t feel change in our life. I mean, not such drastic change, which should have happened. So, what is the reason?

Giriraj Swami: Well, yeah, I don’t know what change she’s expecting, but Srila Prabhupada did give one example. He said that when you get on an airplane, you do all the same things that you did on the ground. You read, you talk with your friend, you eat, and it seems like nothing has changed. But when you look out the window, you can see how far you have come from when you were on the ground. So, nothing dramatic may change, but if you look where you were before and where you are now, you’ll see that there’s a big difference.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, he would like to ask two to three questions. I hope you have time. I’m just concerned.

Giriraj Swami: Yeah.

Host: Thank you so much, Maharaja, yes.

Giriraj Swami: One at a time.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Okay, one question at a time. So, we are taking your first question. Maharaja, he would like to request to know that any jiva that ever comes into this world, he or she is under the influence of all the gunas; sattva, rajas, tamas. So, he’s saying that when a person becomes a devotee, so is this because of his prior karmas or the special mercy of the Lord? How that comes, how that shift happens? Because we all are under three gunas or impact.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. Our beloved previous acharya, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, has discussed the question of how someone gets bhakti, and he says that one could propose that the cause is the mercy of Krishna, but actually, the cause can’t be the mercy of Krishna because Krishna is the father of all living entities, and He has to be equal to all of His children. So, He can’t give bhakti to some and not to others.

One thing, Neeta. You use the word ‘obviously’ quite a bit, and it might be obvious to you but it might not be obvious to others. So, we can skip the ‘obviously.’ You understand?

Host: Sure, okay, yeah.

Giriraj Swami: Okay. So, the cause cannot be the mercy of Krishna because Krishna has to be equal to all of His children. So then, the other possibility is the mercy of a devotee. Someone could object, “Well, the devotee should also be equal to everyone.” But if we see the qualities of a madhyam bhakta, an intermediate devotee who is a preacher, we see that he does make distinctions. And the Bhāgavatam says prema-maitrī-kṛpopekṣā. Prema means he gives his love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Maitrī, he makes friends with devotees. Kṛpā, he gives mercy to the innocent. And upekṣāḥ, he neglects the envious.

So, the cause is the mercy of a devotee. And when the devotee gives mercy, then Krishna gives mercy. So, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says that because the Lord is bhakta-vatsala, He is partial to His devotees. And Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says Krishna’s partiality toward His devotees is not a fault, dushanam, but it is an ornament, bhushanam. So, now, he had other questions, but I think we should give someone else a chance and then we can go back to his questions.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, he would like to show you the darshan of Swami Narayana temple, where we have the Deity of Sri Sri Radha-Kunj Bihari.

Giriraj Swami: Wow. Beautiful, wonderful. Jaya! Yeah, I spent a lot of time at Swami Narayana temple.

Devotee: Thank you.

Host: Thank you, Jagdish Prabhuji.

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. Thanks for the wonderful story of preaching in Pakistan. Maharaja, my question is how many times are you visiting Pakistan?

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, he is asking how many times you have visited. We really look forward to your next visit.

Giriraj Swami: I can’t count. I mean, I visited so many times. In our programs with the Hindus, I would dress like this, in sannyasi dress. Sometimes I would wear, what do they call it? Safari suit. I would wear a safari suit.

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. Daṇḍavat-praṇāmās.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Maharaja, again, there is a request for you. We really look forward to your arrival in Pakistan, and that’s a humble request from all of the Pakistani devotees. We have a special connection with you, and that requires your presence as well. That would be boosting our morale and we can recall again those pastimes and gain benefit out of your mercy and out of your compassionate kindness, really is incredibly supported. We are always very supported by you.

So, any other questions? Malati Mataji. Yes, Malati Mataji? You can unmute.

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Your Divine Grace. Actually, I have a comment, Maharaja. This is the first time I heard about Multan. Actually, my husband and the whole family are from Multan. Their native place is Multan. So, really, this was very nice. And earlier, he used to feel that the Ishta deva of his family is Durga Mata, but recently, just a month back, he told Nṛsiṁhadeva is our Ishta deva. [laughter] And he has a special inclination, he goes to Ahobilam. And so, I am so happy to hear this.

Giriraj Swami: Wonderful.

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja.

Host: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. My question is that [Unintelligible 01:49:10] of a good disciple.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Okay, very nice question. Thank you so much. Hare Krishna. Maharaja, please guide us how to become a good disciple.

Giriraj Swami: Srila Prabhupada said there are three categories of disciples; first class, second class, and third class. The third class, the guru gives an instruction and the disciple says, “Yes, Guru Maharaja,” and then two minutes later, he thinks, “Now, what did Guru Maharaja tell me to do?” He forgot. He’ll do it very begrudgingly or reluctantly. And the second-class disciple will receive an instruction from the Guru and execute it perfectly. And the first-class disciple, he knows what the guru wants even without the guru telling him or her, and he does it without being told. Well, yeah, of course, try to be a first-class disciple. And in this regard, I would suggest studying Srila Prabhupada’s books very seriously.

Host: Thank you very much, Maharaja. Mahesh Prabhu has raised a hand again. Yeah, Mahesh Prabhu, would you like to say something more? Govind Prabhuji would like to add something.

Devotee: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. Daṇḍavat-praṇāmās.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): He is asking, Maharaja, which is your favorite dish. We would like to know because whenever Vyasa-puja comes, we want to prepare such dishes.

Giriraj Swami: Rasagullā. [laughter] 

Host: Thank you for asking a nice question, Govind Prabhu. It will benefit all of us. And what is the next question? Any other questions? Kanaaiya Prabhu, again, would like to ask a question, Maharaja. He is living in West Africa. So, he is having little association of devotees and he needs more guidance maybe. So, can we take his question again?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): Thank you, Maharaja. Nice question. Maharaja, it’s a very practical question, and sometimes I also think about it. What is the exact qualification of preaching? Because we really see ourselves insignificant, lowly, and incomplete, and insufficient. There are so many shortcomings. So, how to go forward in that direction?

Giriraj Swami: Well, as Srila Prabhupada said, we just repeat what we have heard from Krishna, from Srila Prabhupada. We just deliver the message as it is. Srila Prabhupada gave the example of a postal peon. The postal peon himself may be a poor man, but he can deliver you an envelope with a million dollars in it and you’ll be very appreciative. So, you’re delivering the message of Krishna, which is so valuable. It doesn’t matter that personally, you are poor, but your qualification is that you deliver it as it is and speak according to your realization. Don’t pretend to be more than you are.

Host: Thank you very, very much Maharaja. Maharaja, please guide, I mean, are there any rituals necessary for being a preacher. Sixteen mala is a must. Okay, we are doing it. But some other things like maṅgala-ārati and other rituals which are really sometimes skipped. So, in that position, can we take lectures or sessions delivery of lectures would be, I mean, feasible for us? Can we move forward?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, if people ask you to speak, of course. Like we say, practice what you preach. So, the more you practice, the better it is. But even if you don’t practice everything perfectly, you can still preach.

Host (translating a devotee’s question): So, any other questions? Thank you, Mataji. Maharaja, she would like to know how to prevent ourselves from aparādha, especially offenses towards devotees, vaiṣṇava-aparādha, or related concerns.

Giriraj Swami: We should not commit vaiṣṇava-aparādha. Once, Srila Prabhupada’s disciple, Bhurijana dasa, gave a seminar or a retreat on japa, and he gave the students two homework assignments. One was to see how attentive they are when they chant, because that’s the main thing, to be attentive when we chant japa. And the other homework assignment was to see how they avoid criticizing devotees.

So, the next day, he asked the students how they did on their homework. And one of the students said that she was intending not to criticize devotees, but that it was in the environment. In other words, the people she was with were criticizing devotees. So, she said she intended not to criticize devotees, but it was in the environment. So, Bhurijana Prabhu said, “Well, then in that case, you have two choices. One is, you can change the environment. And if you want to change the environment, good luck because the environment doesn’t want to change, the environment wants to criticize. And the other option is to leave that environment.”

That is within our power to avoid the association of people who criticize devotees. Or if they start to criticize devotees, somehow change the conversation in a different direction. And here, blasphemy of a devotee is also an offense, not just to blaspheme but also to hear blasphemy.

Host: There is some voice problem. Maharaja, are you saying, not only focus should be on advancement of devotees but to prevent criticism, that way?

Giriraj Swami: I’m saying that it’s an offense to speak bad about a devotee, but it’s also an offense to hear bad things about a devotee. There is a book by Bhaktivinoda Thakura called Bhaktyaloka. And in Bhaktyaloka, he discusses two verses from the Upadeśāmṛta, The Nectar of Instruction, six things that are favorable for the bhakti and things that destroy bhakti. And one of the things that destroys bhakti is prajalpaḥ. And the worst kind of prajalpaḥ is sādhu-nindā. And he strongly makes the point that it destroys bhakti when we [Unintelligible 02:08:23] others.

So, I gave a talk on this subject in Alachua, on the point that one should not talk about others. And one of the devotees quoted a saying that she learned from her father. And the saying is, “There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us. It hardly behooves any of us to speak about the rest of us.” So, yeah, we shouldn’t speak bad of devotees, and we shouldn’t hear bad about devotees.

Host: Maharaja, you are not tired? We have taken lots of your time.

Giriraj Swami: I’m not tired, but if we’re ready to end, then we can conclude with the Vaishnava praṇāma.

Host: Sure, Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: But there is a question in the chat. “How will I get the recording of tonight’s meeting?”

Host: Sure, I would be providing them, Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: Okay.

Host: Yeah, I would be going. So, on behalf of all the devotees from Pakistan, I would like to take this opportunity to extend gratitude and special thanks to Maharaja for always supporting us, guiding us, nurturing us, beyond boundaries, beyond any conditions. He is truly a sincere disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and his causeless mercy is being always. We are very, very thankful and grateful for his unparalleled support and kindness.

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

[Prayers]

Thank you very, very much, Maharaja. We look forward to welcoming you. Karachi is always calling you. Hare Krishna. Thank you very much to all the devotees for joining from the globe and from Pakistan, highly thankful.

Host: Thank you for asking one question. Maharaja, there is one question, if you allow me, I will email you maybe.

Giriraj Swami: What is he saying?

Host: He is saying that in Ekādaśī, there is a dosa on grains. So, on other days, why is it not there? I mean, there is no dosa on other days on grains, but particularly on Ekādaśī, there is dosa.

Giriraj Swami: Well, I never heard that, but definitely, we should avoid grains on Ekādaśī. When I first came to Pakistan, it was a very big problem on Ekādaśī. We had no facility to cook and nobody else was following Ekādaśī, but we found one Guajarati Mataji, and she observed Ekādaśī. So, on every Ekādaśī we had prasad in her small apartment. Alright.

Host: Yeah. Thank you very, very much, Maharaja.

Giriraj Swami: A pleasure, a pleasure. Thank you for organizing it and for translating.

Host: And please, I mean, pardon me for any mistakes I made unintentionally or intentionally, and I’m begging your pardon.

Giriraj Swami: Did you make intentional ones too? [laughter] Okay, I don’t think you did.

Host: Take care, Maharaja. Hare Krishna.

Giriraj Swami: Hare Krishna.