Interview on the Juhu Story and Other Topics

Namarasa dasa: I’m so deeply honored to have His Holiness Giriraj Swami Maharaja joining me today on the podcast. Thank you, Maharaja, for joining me today.

Giriraj Swami: Thank you, my pleasure.

Namarasa dasa: So, you are a very interesting and inspiring member of the Hare Krishna community, the ISKCON community. And recently, Maharaja has written a book called I’ll Build You a Temple—The Juhu Story. Maharaja will be talking a little bit about his book, about his spiritual journey as well, because I know there are a lot of interesting things in this book, which describe his journey, and also his helping Srila Prabhupada build this wonderful temple in Juhu.

So, Maharaja, maybe we can first start off with how you came in contact with devotees and with Srila Prabhupada?

Giriraj Swami: Well, from high school, I was looking for perfect happiness, and I came to the conclusion that one could not attain perfect happiness materially, but one had to achieve it spiritually. And doing further reading, I came to the conclusion that in order to progress spiritually, one needed a guru. Then, my quest became to find my guru. And I would go anywhere, practically, at least within a thousand miles of Brandeis University near Boston, where I was a student, to find my guru. But in every case, and I met many, I was disappointed, “No, this is not my perfect master. No, this is not my perfect master,” and I almost became hopeless.

Then, one night, I saw a poster on my university campus: Lecture – Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami. That evening, I had some friends over for dinner. I was vegetarian by then, and we were planning to go to the movies after dinner. But something inside me kept pushing me, “You have to go to this lecture.” And one of my friends, a lady, was very upset. She said, “Why can’t you be like a normal person? Why do you have to always be chasing after these swamis and yogis?” And she was raising her voice and I raised my voice, and then I said, “All right, this will be the last one I ever go to!” It was prophetic.

So, we went. And because of the arguing, we reached late and it was the last kirtan. Satsvarupa dasa was leading the kirtan, and the sound was vibrating off the bare brick walls. And the students from the audience, one by one were climbing up on the stage and joining the chanting and dancing. I also felt like doing that, but I knew it would be too much for my friends, so I just stood up in my place and sort of swayed back and forth.

Then afterwards, Satsvarupa announced that if anyone is driving to Cambridge or Boston, they should meet the devotees in the lobby, because the devotees needed a ride. And I was going to Cambridge, to Harvard Square, to the movie, so I went out to the lobby. And the first devotee I met, first devotee I ever spoke to was Bharat Raj Prabhu. And he was so high on Krishna consciousness! All the other so-called gurus I had seen, all their students were pretty morose and down, but Bharat Raj Prabhu was really high.

And they started speaking about the Bhagavad-gītā, and then finally, I said, “I have a station wagon and I can take the devotees to Harvard Square.” So, they all piled in. I was in the front with two ladies, one was Jahnava, I’ll get to her, and there were other devotees in the middle seat, and there were others, including Satsvarupa and my best friend Gary in the back compartment.

So, I started asking Jahnava questions, and she answered with such authority. I asked about Yogananda, because I read Autobiography of a Yogi, and she said, “Oh, he is just a shopkeeper! Whatever you want, he pulls off the shelf.” And she said, “If you ever go to his ashram in California, you’ll see that he has a monument to Mahatma Gandhi as a world peace worker.” She said, “He wasn’t a world peace worker! He was just trying to drive the British out of India; he doesn’t even know who Mahatma Gandhi is!”

So, she was really strong. Then, I asked about Zen, and she said that what we experience in this world is like images on a movie screen. But if you draw your consciousness back, you’ll see there is a light, and then if you go further back, you’ll see that light comes to a point. I thought, This is the best explanation of Zen I’ve ever heard. And then she said, “But behind that point is a projector, and behind the projector is a person!” And I thought, Wow, this is incredible! This is a better explanation of Zen than I’ve ever heard, and it goes far beyond Zen.

But I was thinking, She is just a young girl and she is speaking with such authority. This couldn’t all just be coming from her; it must be coming from her teacher. So, we reached Harvard Square and I let the devotees out, and then I realized I didn’t know how to reach them after that. I didn’t have the address of the temple. So, I stopped the car, and I raced after the devotees, and the first devotee I caught up with was Patita Pavana dasa. And everyone I met was so high! He said, “See all these people? They are just like sleepwalkers; they don’t know who they are or where they are going.” And I was just so fascinated listening to him speak. And then suddenly, I heard loud honking of horns, and I realized, “Oh my God, I left the car in the roundabout at Harvard Square, and all the traffic is packed!” So, I said, “Okay, quick, quick, give me the address.” He gave me the address and I went the next night.

Srila Prabhupada was speaking, and at one stage, he quoted the verse, “Out many thousands of men, one will seek perfection.” And I thought, That’s me! He is talking about me! And then eventually, he asked for questions, and I raised my hand, I was burning to ask my question, which was, “There are so many swamis and yogis, and each one recommends a different process of self-realization, and each says that his is the best. So, how do I know which is actually the best?”

And Srila Prabhupada gave such a brilliant reply! He began by asking me, “What is your goal? Do you want to become God or do you want to serve God?” Because I was asking what is the best means, but there is a more basic question—means to what end?

So, Srila Prabhupada proceeded brilliantly to convince me that I was not God. He said, “If you want to become God, that means you are not God now, and how can not God become God?” And he said, “Krishna is God, He is always God. He doesn’t have to become God by yoga or meditation. He is God when He is playing on the lap of Mother Yasoda, He is God when He is speaking the Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna; He is always God, He doesn’t have to become God.

So, if you want to serve God and you sow the seed of service to God and water it with chanting—God will give you all the sunlight and favorable conditions to make it grow; but if you want to become God – you are only cheating yourself because why should God help the competition?”

So, he said more, it was very persuasive; but what really convinced me beyond any doubt that he was my perfect master—I felt that he was seeing straight through me, out the walls of the temple, down the roads leading into my apartment. And he was seeing into my apartment, into my bathroom where I had posted in beautiful ornate lettering a sign that said—You Are God! I thought, He knows everything! Then at the end, he said, “So, what do you think? You want to serve God or you want to become God?” I said, “I want to serve God.” But I knew I couldn’t cheat him, so I said, “I want to serve, but actually, I had wanted to become God.” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Yes.”

So, I bowed my head in obeisances, in surrender, and I kept it down for a long time. Mainly in the mood of surrender, but also, I was afraid that if I looked up, everyone who was in the temple room, storefront, would be glaring at me, “He wanted to become God!” But then, I heard sounds that indicated that they were serving food, so I thought, Okay, I think it’s safe. So, I came up and a devotee handed me a plate of prasāda; and I think the first thing I tasted was a cauliflower pakora. There was an explosion of taste in my mouth, and every preparation was just fantastic. And the chanting, I really liked the chanting, that was another thing. And I thought, Everything about Krishna consciousness is perfect! The guru, the philosophy, the chanting, the food, everything is perfect!

So, I surrendered. My search was over, and then my whole goal was to just bring people to Srila Prabhupada, that was my whole life’s ambition!

Namarasa dasa: So, when you joined, were you stationed in the Boston area? Or were you sent somewhere else?

Giriraj Swami: That’s a very good question. I joined the Boston temple, and I was there for a year and a half. After a year and a half, Srila Prabhupada announced that he wanted to return to India, and he wanted the number two devotee in each temple to go with him. And I happened to be the number two devotee in Boston. Satsvarupa Prabhu was the number one, and I was the number two.

Namarasa dasa: Number two as in when you joined?

Giriraj Swami: No, in terms of responsibility. I was the treasurer, temple commander, and saṅkīrtana leader. So, I got to go. Everyone wanted to go, and from Boston, I got to go. It was certainly a great blessing!

Namarasa dasa: So, you were in India, and how did it happen that Srila Prabhupada told you or expressed his desire to have a temple in Mumbai?

Giriraj Swami: We went to India in October of 1970, and for about a year and a half, we traveled around India. We didn’t have the Juhu land. At first, we didn’t have any centers, and then gradually, Prabhupada rented a house in Calcutta, and we were staying at different friends’ homes in Bombay.

So, we were traveling, and then Srila Prabhupada had the first Gaura-purnima festival in Mayapur in 1972. He was staying in that straw hut, near the entrance to the property, which is still there, very simple, and he called for me and he said, “During the British rule, they had three provinces – Bombay, Calcutta, and Madras. Which do you want?” I said, “Srila Prabhupada, I’ll do whatever you say, I’ll go wherever you want.” And he said, “No, I want you to decide.” And that made me realize that he was forcing me to come to a higher level of surrender, to get the answer.

Because I had heard that there are three categories of disciples. The third receives an order from the spiritual master and he doesn’t execute it, or he does it begrudgingly. Second, he receives an order from the spiritual master and executes it perfectly. The first class, he knows what the spiritual master wants without even being told, and he does it. So, I had to figure out what Srila Prabhupada wanted without being told.

So, from Mayapur, we went to Calcutta, and every day, I would chant in front of the Deities – Sri Sri Radha-Govinda, and pray, but I wasn’t getting any answer. And then one day, I hatched the plan to go to Srila Prabhupada and trick him, feeling where he wanted me to go.

So, I went in and I said, “I was thinking of going back to Madras,” and I gave the reasons. And without any special facial expression, he said, “Yes, you can do that.” And I said, “But then again, I was thinking I should stay in Calcutta,” and I gave the reasons for that. The same thing, same deadpan expression, same tone of voice, “Yes, you can do that.” And by then, I got the sinking feeling that my plan wasn’t going to work, but I was committed to this strategy. So, “Then again, I was thinking I should go to Bombay,” and I gave the reasons for that. Same deadpan expression, “Yes, you can do that.” So then, I offered my obeisances, but I was happy actually, that my spiritual master was so great that he couldn’t be tricked by a foolish disciple.

But I was still faced with that question, and meanwhile, Prabhupada left. I was chanting, praying, chanting, praying, and then one day, I just got an insight that I should go to Bombay. My reasoning was that our main program in India was life membership. If we took good care of the life members, they themselves would make more members. And if we didn’t take good care of them, even if we personally went to make someone a member, he might not become a member because he would have heard the complaints. So, that was my idea. So, I wrote to Prabhupada, and he said, “Yes, come to Bombay immediately.” So, I went to Bombay with that in mind.

One day, soon after I got there, Srila Prabhupada held a meeting to discuss who would take charge of the project, and I didn’t think I was in consideration because there were so many more senior devotees than me. So, we went into Srila Prabhupada’s room. He was staying at one of the tenant’s homes. It was quite tense, and then Srila Prabhupada turned to me and he said, “So, Giriraj, will you take charge?” That was not my idea at all. With my intelligence, I said, “If that is what you wish, I will do it.” But I was really rebelling against the idea, because I didn’t like management. I didn’t think I was that good at it, and I preferred to preach.

So, Prabhupada said, “Good.”  And then he said, “So, now the whole responsibility is on you.” And I thought, Why is Srila Prabhupada saying that? Doesn’t he know how hard this is going to be? And now it looks like he is rubbing it in by saying that the whole responsibility is on me. But I knew with my intelligence that Srila Prabhupada knew what was best for everyone, so I accepted it.

Namarasa dasa: Maharaja, I want to ask you a little bit about the obstacles that you faced. I don’t want to go through the whole story because the devotees can read the book, obviously, but I want to talk a little bit about the obstacles that you faced. It seems that to do anything in India is so difficult, to get things going. And to build a temple, even now, it’s so difficult, what to speak of forty—fifty years ago when you did that.

So, first of all, I want to talk about this very interesting character that was depicted on Abhay Charan—that’s how I was introduced to him—Mr. Nair. Can we talk a little bit about who he was and why he was such an obstacle?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, Mr. Nair was a demon. I should say that one year, in Los Angeles, there was a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about demons. And somehow, in that context, I told the story of Juhu and Mr. Nair. And afterwards, Veerabahu Prabhu told me, “I don’t usually like it when devotees call people demons, but after hearing this story, I agree, Nair was a demon.”

He was a very cunning man. He offered Srila Prabhupada the land, he presented himself as a well-wisher, but he was so cunning, (He had done this with one other person before us as well), that he embedded within the agreement a condition that he was sure that the person couldn’t fulfill. Because he would use his influence—he was the editor of one of three English daily newspapers in Bombay, and he had been the sheriff of Bombay. He was a very influential person.

So, with the previous customer, he embedded the condition that the customer had to get the land subdivided. Then, Nair made sure that the subdivision didn’t go through, and so on that basis, Nair canceled the agreement, and he kept the man’s money.

With Prabhupada, he embedded a condition that Prabhupada had to get permission from the charity commissioner. And then, he used his influence with the charity commissioner’s office to make sure he didn’t get permission. And it was also embedded in the contract that we had six months, and when we didn’t get the permission from the charity commissioner, Nair canceled the agreement and planned to keep all the money.

So, there are many, many intrigues. Nair had our lawyer. Somehow, Nair got our lawyer on his side, so the lawyer gave us some bad advice. But Krishna’s greatness is shown in His defeating powerful demons, so Prabhupada’s greatness was also shown by his defeating this powerful demon!

Namarasa dasa: Ultimately, he died during this whole thing, right? Is that what happened?

Giriraj Swami: He did. And that’s another story. Nair had a heart attack and died. So, one day, I was walking on the sidewalk in part of Bombay called Metro Cinema Dhobi Talao, and there were vendors with newspapers and magazines sitting on the sidewalk. I just happened to glance down, and I saw this headline—AB Nair dead—and I was jubilant! I felt like dancing in the street. And then I thought to myself, “Is this proper? We are trying to be saintly persons, is this how a saintly person would react?” I wasn’t sure.

So, Bali Mardan was in Bombay at the time. He was more senior than me and he said we have to phone Prabhupada and let him know. So, Bali Mardan phoned and Prabhupada was getting his massage, and he sent Srutakirti Prabhu to take the call. And what actually transpired is in the book, but in Bombay, I didn’t know what transpired. But we got a letter from Srila Prabhupada, “I have received a telephonic message from Bali Mardan that the demon Nair is dead.” And he quoted that Prahlada Maharaja says that even a saintly person takes pleasure when a snake or a scorpion is killed, and Nair was a big snake. So, basically, he was approving that we felt pleasure in Nair’s death.

Namarasa dasa: Maharaja, what inspired you to write this book? Because it seems that it’s a very long and detailed story. So, can you tell us a little bit about what was the thought process behind it? I know that Srila Prabhupada said that maybe this should be written as a book?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, Srila Prabhupada did. Well, his struggles to build a temple and establish Hare Krishna land in Juhu on the outskirts of Bombay was perhaps the greatest effort of his preaching movement. In fact, from the time he returned to India in August 1970, he spent 554 days in Bombay, more than any other place in the world. And it took six years from 1972 when he took possession of the land, to 1978 when the temple opened. And after the conveyance was signed, he declared, “It was a good fight. Someone should write a book about it.”

So, I served in Juhu as temple president, and later, as Governing Body Commissioner, between 1972 and 1999, raising funds and overseeing every aspect of the project; the only devotee to be closely involved throughout that period. And Srila Prabhupada had already told me in 1971, “You should write, this is your first business.” He repeated this instruction over the years. So, despite my limitations and disqualifications, but with the encouragement and assistance of many well-wishers, I took up writing about him and Juhu, as he desired.

Namarasa dasa: Before we go into more parts of the book, I wanted to ask you a little bit about your parents. What was their reaction to their son taking up Krishna consciousness?

Giriraj Swami: They didn’t like it at all. As I mentioned, I was studying at Brandeis University in Boston, and Srila Prabhupada came to my university, and I joined the temple. It was a big thing, my graduating. My grandmother had two sons—my father, who was a lawyer, and later became a judge, and my uncle, who was a doctor. I was the first grandchild who was graduating. So, she wanted to come; but when my parents found out what happened—that I had joined the movement—I don’t know how they explained it, but they told her not to come.

So, my parents came, and the first day they came to the temple, I was in the kitchen peeling potatoes, and my father said, “I spent all this money on your education so you could peel potatoes?” But they were good people; my father was a man of integrity, (he was a lawyer and later became a judge), and whenever there was propaganda against the movement, he would always defend it. He knew it was a genuine movement. He knew that Prabhupada was a genuine spiritual master.

Before Juhu, I was in the Calcutta temple, and my parents came to visit. I was a little apprehensive, because I was trying to be a strict brahmachari, and Prabhupada said, “You have to spend time with them, they did a long distance, and you have to spend time with them.”

So, finally, I introduced them to Srila Prabhupada, and he dealt with them so skillfully, it was amazing. He began by saying that he used to have a pharmacy in Allahabad, and Motilal Nehru was his customer. And Motilal Nehru told him that he had a son named Jawaharlal Nehru who was useless, so he was thinking of giving him to the Freedom Movement. And he was saying how Motilal Nehru was made in England man. Prabhupada would sell a medicine, which was made in India, and the exact same medicine made in England, which would cost much more, but Motilal Nehru would always take the one made in England.

So, in a subtle way, Srila Prabhupada was working on my father’s prejudices. First, that if someone is a big man in the material world, it means he is a great person. Here, he is quoting Nehru’s father, saying he is useless – but Jawaharlal Nehru was the first prime minister of India. Second, the things made in England or the west are better than things made in India.

So, eventually, my father came to the point, which was—they wanted me back. He said that I could remain Krishna conscious, but I should come back to America. And it’s also true that at that time, I was quite thin, and my mother was concerned about my health. So, my father said, “I want to make a trust for my son and put a million dollars in it,” which even now is a lot, but back then, it was really a lot. “And I want him to come to America to sign the documents.” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Yes, you can send the documents, he will sign.”

Srila Prabhupada could see they weren’t completely satisfied, and he said, “Well, all right, let him stay with me, (it was October), and when I come to America in April, I’ll bring him with me. Then I said to my father, “Just see how intelligent Srila Prabhupada is. When it’s pleasantly cool in India but too cold in America, he stays in India. And when it gets unpleasantly hot in India but it’s pleasantly warm in America, he goes to America.”

So, by that time, my father was getting really enlivened by Srila Prabhupada. He said, “Yes, your master is very intelligent.” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Well, I must be intelligent, otherwise, how could I attract so many intelligent young men as your son?” And my father said, “No, actually, you are very intelligent.”

But my mother—her angle was my health, because I looked thin, and back then, people had the idea that if you didn’t eat meat, you wouldn’t get enough protein. So, Srila Prabhupada would always keep sweets on his desk, and especially in Calcutta, he had rasagullā and sandeśa. So, he was handing it out, he was putting it in my father’s hand, my mother’s hand, and he said, “These are made from cheese, and they are very high in protein!” And then he said to me, “Giriraj, you must eat two dozen rasagullā and sandeśa every day!” I’m still working on it.

My father was charmed, my mother was charmed, and as my father was leaving the room, he said to me, “I can say two things about your master, one—he really knows how to deal with people, and two – he is a brilliant organizer.” In my father’s value system, those were the two highest compliments he could pay to anyone.

So, from Calcutta, I went to Madras. I was the first devotee to go to Madras. We didn’t have a center or anything, and staying at different people’s homes and eating lots of idlis and dosas and sambar, I put on weight. Then, I arranged a program for Srila Prabhupada. He came, he saw that I put on weight, and he said, “You should take a picture of yourself and send it to your mother.” He hadn’t forgotten, he was so kind and considerate.

Namarasa dasa: Are they still around, or did they leave? (GRS’s parents)

Giriraj Swami: No, they left. But as I mentioned, my father always defended the movement.

Namarasa dasa: Wonderful! It seems that looking through the book; there were so many obstacles that you faced in getting this temple finished for Srila Prabhupada. I wanted to talk a little bit about obstacles. Did you feel any hopelessness? Or did you feel, “I’m going to give up, or I can’t do this myself?” Talk to us a little bit about what you were thinking at that time, as being a young person who was told to manage building a temple in a completely foreign country. I want to kind of get into your head at that time.

Giriraj Swami: There were a lot of obstacles. There was Nair, and he had his allies who were placed in important positions. But I had so much faith in Srila Prabhupada. Many devotees left. And at one stage, Srila Prabhupada said, (I don’t think I put it in the book), “Giriraj is the only one who understands my vision for Juhu.” So, I persevered. I was convinced, (this is also a very important point), that the secret of success in spiritual life is to follow the order of the spiritual master and please the spiritual master.

In 1970, we had a big pandal program at Cross Maidan in Bombay, (that was the first time His Holiness Radhanath Swami met devotees). So, after the success of the first Bombay pandal, Srila Prabhupada sent Tamal Krishna Goswami and me to Calcutta to arrange a big pandal program there, which we did. And it was even better attended than the one in Bombay. Tamal Krishna Goswami said, “You collect the money and I’ll spend it.” I said, “Okay.” So, that was very successful.

Namarasa dasa: Right now, I feel, in my generation of devotees, we don’t face these kinds of obstacles that your generation faced. No one’s telling me to go somewhere to build a temple. But yet, we have so many obstacles, but different obstacles—it could be in our own spiritual lives, in our sadhana, and what’s going on in the world maybe. So, what would you say to someone of my generation of how to maybe use those obstacles to move forward? How to not feel hopeless? You said that the most important thing is following the order of the spiritual master; but for our generation, what would you say is following the spiritual master’s instructions, when it’s not, “Go build a temple.”

Giriraj Swami: Well, there are general instructions and specific instructions, and Srila Prabhupada is our founder acharya. He is the foundational śikṣā-guru of all devotees in ISKCON. So, we have his general instructions in his books and lectures and letters. But specific instructions like, “Build a temple,” we don’t have. But Srila Prabhupada did give some advice how to get instruction in his absence.

Satsvarupa dasa asked Srila Prabhupada, “Now you are here, so if we have any questions, we can ask you, but what about later, when you are not here?” And Srila Prabhupada replied, “The holy name of Krishna is identical to Krishna, do you understand this fact?” And on other occasions also, Srila Prabhupada said that by offenseless chanting of the holy name, we could get answers to our questions in his absence. And of course, we can consult, that is also recommended. It’s stated in shastra, that in Kali-yuga, there is strength or energy in association.

So, Srila Prabhupada didn’t appoint an acharya, as you know. He made the Governing Body the ultimate managing authority of the entire International Society for Krishna Consciousness. So, consulting is very important. And Srila Prabhupada said, “In an assembly of well-wishing, mature Vaishnavas, we should accept their conclusions as coming from Krishna.”

Namarasa dasa: Thank you for that. Going back to the Mumbai story, were there certain devotees that you really leaned on when you were going through all this? I mean, how did you communicate with the people who were supplying the resources and the materials? And also, did you confide in any peers, how was that?

Giriraj Swami: Well, when we got the Juhu land, Srila Prabhupada made me the temple president, and Tamal Krishna Goswami was the GBC for India. And he was very intelligent and staunch, so I relied on him a lot. But eventually, he left India and went to America and started the Radha-Damodara party. But we were a good team. We collected a lot of money. Some people would say we are like good cop and bad cop, but we collected a lot.

First, because of all the legal complications with Juhu, we were collecting for Vrindavan, and then, when the legal complications got cleared, we collected for Juhu a lot. Some devotees complained to Srila Prabhupada that Tamal Krishna Goswami and I, both are such good preachers, why should we go together? But Srila Prabhupada replied, “If together they can collect more than the sum total of the two of them separately, then they should go together.” And I think that was the case, because we were a really good team.

Namarasa dasa: Let’s go into after you left the service in 1999 in Mumbai as a temple president, GBC, what were you focusing on at that time?

Giriraj Swami: Well, Srila Prabhupada had given me the instruction to write as my first business. But as a temple president, as GBC, I was always traveling, giving classes, having meetings with devotees, and I wasn’t really able to write. I wrote articles for Back to Godhead, but that was about it.

And then in 1999, I developed a heart condition, and I had cardiac bypass surgery. So, I couldn’t travel the way I used to. And then, I made my base in Santa Barbara. I couldn’t travel anymore; my health didn’t allow me, so I was in Santa Barbara. And I thought, Well, okay, this is the opportunity, Prabhupada wanted me to write. So then, every year, I would bring out a book—first Watering the Seed, then Many Moons, then The Final Exam, and the Juhu book – that took about three years, but I was finally able to do that. So, Santa Barbara was good for my health, and it was good for my writing.

Tamal Krishna Goswami visited me here. But I was still traveling. I met him in Cambridge when he was in Cambridge. And we also spent time together in India. Srila Prabhupada saw us together. He saw us as a good team, and in his last year, he gave the power of attorney to Tamal Krishna Goswami and me. And there were a number of events in that last year, when Srila Prabhupada wouldn’t do something unless the two of us agreed. So, he saw us as a good team.

And then, after Prabhupada left, we still did a lot of service together in Bombay. He was very strong-willed, and sometimes we would disagree on points, and he wouldn’t heed. But he was also very Krishna conscious, and many times, he would chant in the morning very intently, and then afterwards, he would come back to me and say, “I was thinking about what you said, I think you are right, actually, so we will do that.” So, his chanting, his Krishna consciousness. . .

Namarasa dasa: How did you work together so smoothly and as a team? Because it seems that nowadays, or even at that time as well, sometimes it’s hard to work with devotees very closely and find a common goal or focus. There is always some friction. So, what was it about your relationship with him that was recognized by Srila Prabhupada?

Giriraj Swami: Well, we were united in our surrender and love for Srila Prabhupada. I’ll say it, although it’s not something I would recommend for all devotees. There is a system of personality types, called the enneagram. According to the enneagram, I’m a one and he is a three. And both ones and threes are achievers. But the one is more idealistic, and the three is more pragmatic. And I think Srila Prabhupada saw that Tamal Krishna Goswami’s pragmatism was very useful for getting things done. But sometimes, he might have been cornered when it came to principles. But I, being a one, was very principled. But sometimes, being too principled can also get in the way of getting things done. So, somehow, the combination of us was good, and Prabhupada saw that and he put us together and we were able to achieve a lot in service to Srila Prabhupada.

Namarasa dasa: I also want to talk about His Holiness Bhakti Charu Maharaja, because I know he is mentioned in the book in the later chapters. A little bit about your relationship with him at that time, as well as in more recent years. Please tell us a little bit about him.

Giriraj Swami: Well, we first met in the bathroom at the Maha Khumba-mela in Allahabad.

Namarasa dasa: What a place to meet!

Giriraj Swami: Yeah, because he had just fairly recently joined, and the Khumba-mela was end of 1976, beginning of 1977. So, every twelve years is Khumba-mela, and every twelve Khumba-melas, every 144 years, is Maha Khumba-mela. So, I saw him, and I didn’t recognize him. So, I asked who he was, and I introduced myself. (He tells about that in his book—Ocean of Mercy). And I could see he was very refined and cultured. And after the Khumba-mela, Srila Prabhupada came to Juhu, and Bhakti Charu Swami was part of his personal staff. So, I got to have his association there, but even more so in Vrindavan, during Srila Prabhupada’s last days. Bhakti Charu Swami took such good care of him.

At one stage, there was quite a controversy in Srila Prabhupada’s last days, because Srila Prabhupada expressed a desire to go to Govardhana Hill for Govardhana-puja on a bullock cart. And the disciples sort of broke into two groups.

And Prabhupada’s personal servants—Tamal Krishna Goswami, Bhakti Charu Swami, Bhavananda Maharaja (then)—they didn’t want him to make that trip, because they said that even if they put a mattress on the bullock cart, still, there are so many potholes in the road and Prabhupada will get jostled and it would be painful for him. He might even die on the way. Tamal Krishna Goswami said, “People might even accuse us of killing him.” And the other group was led by Hansadutta Prabhu, and he said, “No, we should execute the order of the spiritual master. It’s not our position to question his order or to try to impose our will on the spiritual master.”

So, I wasn’t really sure. Personally, I was closer to Prabhupada’s personal staff, but philosophically, I couldn’t really determine who was right. But then, just after Prabhupada left, I was chanting, (I would chant in his room when he wasn’t there, that was my practice), behind his bed, where there are bookshelves, and my eyes fell upon the new volume of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that had just come out. And it was gold embossed, made especially for Srila Prabhupada.

I opened it up, and it came, within a few verses, to a statement from the dāmodara-līlā, that although Krishna is the controller of the universe and all of the powerful demigods therein, He has one attribute—He comes under the control of the love of His devotees. And when I read it—to me, it answered the question—Srila Prabhupada had come under the control of the love of His devotees and agreed not to go by bullock cart to Govardhana.

Namarasa dasa: Amazing. And you were there at the time when Srila Prabhupada left this world, right? I think I remember you in the videos. Can you tell us a little bit about that time? How you were feeling, what was the mood of the devotees? And the Juhu project wasn’t completely done yet, right?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, we opened the Juhu temple on January 14th, 1978; two months after Prabhupada had left. But he always spoke to me about Juhu, even in Vrindavan. He was giving advice about the opening, and many details, even from Vrindavan.

In those last days, there were a few significant events. One of them, (I mean, involving me and Srila Prabhupada), I think it was three days before he left. I was taking a rest on the terrace of the gurukula building, and in the middle of the night, a devotee woke me up and said, “Prabhupada is calling for you.” And I didn’t know what to expect, because Prabhupada’s health was so delicate.

So, I went to his room, he was lying on his bed, and he said, “So, what do you think, after I leave, will this movement go on?” And I replied, “Yes, as long as the devotees are sincere, chant their rounds, and follow the regulated principles, it will go on.” And then, Prabhupada, in a very soft voice, with some difficulty, said, “Organization, intelligence and organization.” And I thought about it that, yes, we do have to be sincere and chant our rounds and follow the four regulated principles for our own spiritual lives, but to spread Krishna consciousness, we need to be organized and intelligent. So, from that statement of Srila Prabhupada’s, I took it that he was saying that we have to preach, and to preach, you need organization and intelligence.

And then he said, “Is there anything else?” And within my heart, I felt like my heart was screaming out, “Don’t leave!” But I didn’t say it, I didn’t articulate it. But in retrospect, I do wish I had said that.

Namarasa dasa: So, after he left, since your whole motivation was fulfilling his desire that Juhu and the temple will be built—after he left, did you feel any sort of diminishing in your desire? The vapuḥ of Prabhupada was no longer there, but the instruction was still there. Did you feel any kind of diminishment in your enthusiasm?

Giriraj Swami: I don’t think so. I felt separation, that’s for sure, but I wouldn’t say that my enthusiasm diminished because I knew, “Okay, now we’ve built the temple, now we have to use it, like Prabhupada wanted.” And I was enthusiastic to do that.

So, after Srila Prabhupada left in Vrindavan, Tamal Krishna Goswami and I and Bhavananda, (maybe one other), as Prabhupada directed—we had to take some flowers from his samadhi to Mayapur and establish a puṣpa-samādhi there. So, this group of us did that.

And then in Calcutta, it might have been Prabhupada’s son, Vrindavan Chandra De, who said, “Now that Prabhupada is not here, who’s going to speak to people about Krishna?” And Tamal Krishna Goswami looked at me and said, “That is a very good question.” But of course, we had to rise to the occasion. Not that we could do it on the level of Srila Prabhupada, but we had to do what we could.

Namarasa dasa: For our listeners, we are going to be taking questions now that are in the comment section. At the comment section, there is a lot of appreciation for this interview.

Tulsi-Priya dasi: If you haven’t already, can you please ask Maharaja about the process of collecting all the sources for all the factual info in the book? Seems like there was a lot of documentation to go through and select for inclusion, though the book is so comprehensive, it seems like he didn’t leave much out!

Giriraj Swami: I had a lot of support in this effort from a disciple in Israel named Rohini Nandan dasa. First, he studied the whole history of the Juhu project to become familiar with it, and then he put together what he called collections, which were things I had said on a particular topic over the years, or that it may be even written. And I also did a lot of interviews of devotees, and I had a team that was doing interviews. So, we had a lot of interviews. And then, there was the Yadubara’s video series, Following Srila Prabhupada. So, Rohini Nandan not only got the transcripts of what devotees said in the video series, but there was a lot more that they said that Yadubara didn’t include in the narration. So, he got the full transcripts of all of those and he put it all together in what he called collections.

So, say I wanted to write about Nair’s death, or Prabhupada’s reaction to Nair’s death, so there’d be a whole collection of things I had said, things Prabhupada said that we got from the Vedabase, things that other devotees had said, Srutakirti Prabhu, who was with Prabhupada when he got the news. So then, when I was going to write about that, I would review all the material in the collections and put it together in the narrative.

It reminds me—I never thought of it that way before—but just now it struck me how Prabhupada would write his translations. He would look at all the commentaries of the previous acharyas and put it all together and write the purports.

Krishna Kirtan dasa: What is the next book that Maharaja is planning to write?

Giriraj Swami: That will be about traveling with Srila Prabhupada in India before Juhu. There are two-time segments that I have to write about. One is in Boston, leading up to when we went to India. The other one is traveling with Srila Prabhupada in India before Juhu. So, I’m going to do that one first, because there is more of Prabhupada in it. I consulted different godbrothers and some said, “Well, you should do it in chronological order, so you should start with Boston.” But then, Radhanath Swami, he is so sweet and brilliant, he said, “Well, you’ve already done Juhu, so now you are doing it in chronological order, going backwards.”

Nidhi Lakhini: This was such a wonderful session. My question is, how do you build a relationship with your guru if you haven’t met him in person yet?

Giriraj Swami: Well, the main relationship comes from hearing. And there is one nice letter that Srila Prabhupada wrote, in which he says, “The eternal relation with the spiritual master begins from the first time he hears.” Of course, Prabhupada was referring to meeting his guru. “At my first meeting with my Guru Maharaja, he instructed me to preach in the western countries, and now it is happening.” Nowadays, we can hear without meeting the person. We hear.

So, Nidhi, I know dear Nidhi, I think that she can develop her relationship with her prospective guru by hearing his talks, following his instructions, offering service. She could write, maybe she already has, write and ask what she can do for him. And the relationship can build.

Brent Pyeatt: Hare Krishna, Guru Maharaja. Was there anything mystical about the moment Srila Prabhupada left?

Giriraj Swami: I would say so. The kirtan was amazing! I do describe that in the book. The kirtan was amazing. Some devotees were chanting, “Jaya Prabhupada.” Some devotees were chanting Hare Krishna maha-mantra. And as some witnesses have described it—it’s like the ceiling disappeared, and there was this current going from Prabhupada’s room to the spiritual sky.

I had my own personal desire that was fulfilled by Srila Prabhupada in his last hour or minutes—I wanted to do some personal service to his vapuḥ, and I was at the head of his bed, and it didn’t seem like there was any chance. And then suddenly, a little before he left, he threw his arm back over the end of the bed and I was able to hold his hand and squeeze it, give him a little massage. Out of his causeless mercy, he fulfilled that desire I had, to render some service just before he left. He was in perfect consciousness. And at the very moment that he left, he opened his mouth as if speaking Hare Krishna, and then he left.

Charles Vishwambhara Towle: Maharaja, great līlā, kathā with Prabhupada. Anything you can say about your association with Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja. I listened to some of the audio conversations between you, him, and Tamal Krishna Maharaja. Seemed very sweet, intimate, and a lot of glorification of Prabhupada’s deep teachings from Caitanya-caritāmṛta. I would like to hear from you your recollections.

Giriraj Swami: That question became complicated, because Tamal Krishna Goswami and I went to Srila Narayana Maharaja with the idea that we would learn from him, and then introduce what we learned from him into ISKCON, but in a way that was compatible and harmonious with what we got from Srila Prabhupada. So, it was mainly meant to be a private affair between us and Sripada Narayana Maharaja.

And then one day, you could say, the cat got out of the bag. What happened was Jadurani phoned the guest house at the Krishna-Balarama temple and told the receptionist to give a message to Tamal Krishna Goswami that Narayana Maharaja would not be able to meet us that day. So, that was, in a way, a turning point. So, there were problems. Our idea was we would get knowledge from him and introduce it into ISKCON in a way that was congenial to Srila Prabhupada, but then devotees were thinking, Well, it’s good for them to go to Narayana Maharaja, why not us? We’ll also go to Narayana Maharaja. That was one aspect. The other aspect was that the level of conversation, the topic—rāgānugā-bhakti, it wasn’t really that appropriate for the general devotees.

But for a while, that became very common, and it wasn’t really that good for the devotees, wasn’t that good for the movement. And then, independently, (although there was some apprehension that the GBC would take up the topic in Mayapur), both Tamal Krishna Goswami and I came to the conclusion on our own, before even going to Mayapur, that we should stop going because of these two reasons. It was encouraging others to go, and the topic of rāgānugā-bhakti, the way he was presenting it, it wasn’t Prabhupada’s emphasis, and it wasn’t Prabhupada’s mood.

And it was tricky, because if you accept someone as a śikṣā-guru, he should be compatible with your dīkṣā-guru, by definition. And I would say—on the very highest level, they are compatible because it’s service to the divine couple, but in terms of practicing devotional service in ISKCON—Narayana Maharaja’s mood and emphasis were different from Prabhupada’s. Therefore, it wasn’t really appropriate for us as devotees to surrender to him as a śikṣā-guru or to try to introduce him into ISKCON as a śikṣā-guru. But I certainly offer him all respect and a great appreciation for all that he taught us and did for us.

Yambika devi Ansuya: Hare Krishna, Maharaja. Thank you so much for these wonderful pastimes. What message will you give to today’s devotees, to maintain the spirits (the collaboration, the peace) that was there at the time when Srila Prabhupada was here?

Giriraj Swami: I take collaboration as the key word, because before Srila Prabhupada left, he said, “Your love for me will be shown by how you cooperate after my departure.” And that cooperation is so important. And it involves keeping Prabhupada in the center, as he should be. And it involves us giving up our false egos and material attachments for the sake of Srila Prabhupada’s service.

There is a wonderful purport in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.5.12 in which Srila Prabhupada explains what our mood should be as devotees. I remember the first couple of lines of the last paragraph. He writes, “Everyone should be friendly for the service of the Lord. Everyone should appreciate the service of others and not be proud of his own service.” So, I recommend every devotee read and re-read that purport, because it tells us exactly how we should relate with one another.

I’ll read those first few sentences of the last paragraph (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.5.12).

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

Everyone should be friendly for the service of the Lord. Everyone should praise another’s service to the Lord and not be proud of his own service. This is the way of Vaiṣṇava thinking, Vaikuṇṭha thinking. There may be rivalries and apparent competition between servants in performing service, but in the Vaikuṇṭha planets the service of another servant is appreciated, not condemned. This is Vaikuṇṭha competition. There is no question of enmity between servants. Everyone should be allowed to render service to the Lord to the best of his ability, and everyone should appreciate the service of others. Such are the activities of Vaikuṇṭha.

Giriraj Swami: There is more, but that’s the gist of it.

S. Martinez: How do you see ISKCON in fifty years?

Giriraj Swami: Well, I see it in every town and village. But during Srila Prabhupada’s time, we had a meeting with Srimati Lilavati Munshi, who was the head of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, and she asked Prabhupada about the future of ISKCON. And Prabhupada replied, “As long as my disciples follow my instructions, the future is bright!” (She and her husband, they are involved with the Freedom Movement). And he gave the example of Nehru and Gandhi, that Gandhi wanted village organization, and Nehru wanted industry, which was the opposite of what Gandhi wanted. So, he was making the point that Nehru went against what Gandhi wanted. So, Prabhupada was saying that as long as my disciples follow my instructions, the future will be bright.

So, how do I see it in fifty years? In a way, it really depends on Srila Prabhupada’s followers. But I would hope and pray that it will be wonderful! It will be flourishing in every town and village!

Aki Len: Hare Krishna Guru Maharaja. You were a university student too, and so am I. With your own experience, what advice will you give to students in Krishna conscious way, who cannot handle pressure and stress? Thank you from Mauritius.

Giriraj Swami: I don’t know how much my situation is similar to Aki Len’s, but it’s true, I was a university student, and maybe two months before graduation, I joined. And I asked the devotees whether I should go back and complete my education, get my degree or not? And the devotees advised me, “You should, because you never know, it might be helpful in the future.” So, I went back to campus, and I was so excited about Krishna consciousness when I met my old friends, and I just wanted to tell them about Krishna consciousness. I didn’t spend much time preparing for finals. It was like a miracle! I literally felt that whatever answers I knew, those questions were on the test.

The one exception, there was a question about evolution. And it was an essay question. And I think, Wait a minute, I’m in trouble here, there is a problem here. But then I got an A on the paper. Then I realized that the defect was not in my understanding of the theory of evolution, but in the theory itself. So, it worked out.

As far as pressure and stress—try to take shelter of Krishna, take shelter of the holy name, take shelter of the Deities, and have faith in Krishna! Don’t be too stressed out.

Namarasa dasa: Thank you, Maharaja! I wanted to thank you so much for coming to talk to me and to all our listeners. We had about 160 viewers, listening over all the different platforms. I was wondering if you could just leave us with one short concluding note or concluding statement before we end here.

Giriraj Swami: When you said that, it reminded me of an interview that Srila Prabhupada had in the radio in New York City. The interviewer asked him, “Do you have any final message for the people of New York?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “Don’t live like cats and dogs.” I think my parting message would be, “Chant and be happy.”

Namarasa dasa: Thank you again, Maharaja, for joining me, I really appreciate it!