Sri Krishna Janmashtami Celebrations—Part 02

Giriraj Swami: I agree. [Laughter] Yes, Narada chided Vyasadeva because he gave prescriptions on how to work in the material world. And Narada said that people are already attached to working in the material world and by giving them prescriptions, you are not really freeing them from their material engagements. But somehow my mind is going back a little bit in time to when Śukadeva Gosvami came out of the womb after sixteen years, and immediately he left home and his father, Vyasadeva, went after him in the forest. And Vyasadeva quoted two verses. One begins, aho bakī yaṁ, “How shall I take shelter of one more merciful than he who granted the position of nurse like a mother to a she demon, Pūtanā, even though she was unfaithful and smeared her breast with poison to kill Him?” So that was one verse about Krishna’s mercy. And the other verse was, it appears in the Tenth Canto about Krishna’s beauty. And when Śukadeva Gosvami heard those two verses, although he was liberated, he became attracted, which shows that Krishna is attractive even to people who are already liberated. And then he came back to hear his father, Vyasadeva speak Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

And that one verse, aho bakī yaṁ, reminds me of Srila Prabhupada. “How shall I take shelter of one more merciful than he?” Well, it is also, as Srila Prabhupada says, it is a sign of a good man to take the good side and not the bad side. And he gave the example of his guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, who had a disciple named Kunjabihari dasa. People used to call him Kunjababu. And Srila Prabhupada said he came to do business with his guru Maharaja. He tried to profit personally from his relationship with the Gaudiya Math. And Srila Prabhupada said, but his guru Maharaja didn’t take the dark side that he came to do business and profit personally, but he took the bright side that he came to do service, came to offer service. Srila Prabhupada has described different, you could say, categories of devotees. And the lowest, they see a little fault and make a big thing out of it. Then the next, they see the good and the bad, but they give more importance to the bad. Then the next, they see the good and the bad and they give equal importance to both. Then the next, they see the good and the bad, but they give more importance to the good. And then the best sees a little good and makes a big thing out of it, like Vaisesika Prabhu, who does with me. He does it all the time. Srila Prabhupada, he really was like that too. He would never reject anyone. I will tell two instances.

So, we were in Bombay and Srila Prabhupada received a phone call from the temple presidents in Calcutta saying that one of Srila Prabhupada’s early disciples had come and was smoking ganja. And so he wanted to know what message he should convey from Srila Prabhupada. And Srila Prabhupada said, “Tell him that if he doesn’t stop smoking ganja, marijuana, I will reject him.” And afterwards, Tamal Krishna Goswami asked Srila Prabhupada, “Is it true that if he doesn’t stop smoking ganja, you will reject him?” And Srila Prabhupada said, “No, I cannot reject anyone.” He said, “The mercy of Lord Nityananda has no limits.” And then a couple of years later in Juhu, one of Prabhupada’s disciples ended up living on the beach. And he, you could say, fell into bad company with a yogi who was teaching him different tricks to impress people and make money. So Tamal Krishna Goswami explained to Srila Prabhupada what was happening and that that devotee was known as Prabhupada’s disciple and a member of ISKCON, and he was giving ISKCON and Prabhupada a bad name, and Prabhupada should reject him. And Prabhupada replied, “I cannot reject anyone.” And Tamal Krishna Goswami said, “Well, don’t you have to draw the line somewhere?” And again, Srila Prabhupada said, “The mercy of Lord Nityananda has no limits.” So we are, aho bakī yaṁ, how could we take shelter of one more merciful than he? The conclusion. But of course, that verse refers to Krishna. And we are observing Krishna Janmashtami. And both are merciful. But the devotee is even more merciful than the Lord. And the Lord likes to give credit to His devotee.

Once we were in the room with Srila Prabhupada in Bombay. We just arrived, so we were staying with Kailash Seksaria on Marine Drive. And Gurudasa Prabhu started to praise. And Srila Prabhupada’s little deities were there. Gurudasa began to praise the devotee. And then he remembered the injunction that you shouldn’t praise someone in front of the deities, and so he checked himself. And Srila Prabhupada said that Krishna is already glorified but he takes more pleasure when his devotees are glorified. So I don’t know why I am saying all this. It is sort of a stream of consciousness. I guess I am just happy to be here with all of you and with Srila Prabhupada on this auspicious occasion of Krishna Janmashtami with the deities. Just appreciating the mercy.

Vaisesika Prabhu: If I could continue, a couple of points about the aho bakī yaṁ stana-kāla-kūṭaṁ.

Giriraj Swami: Please.

Vaisesika Prabhu: So this verse, it comes up in the Third Canto of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is a discussion between Vidura and Uddhava. Vidura has approached Uddhava, who is fully absorbed in spiritual consciousness, so much so that, it is described in the Bhāgavatam that he had to rest himself from the spiritual realm to be present to speak to Vidura. And in that conversation, when Uddhava was expressing his affection for Vrindavan and the residents of Vrindavan, and there is the verse, aho bakī yaṁ stana-kāla-kūṭaṁ. Anyway, the verse, as Maharaja mentioned, is about “aho,” which means, like, “Oh, this is like the most amazing thing.” And “ bakī,” “ bakī “ is the sister of Bakasura. bakī, it is the female; okay, there is the sister. So Bakasura is your brother. And lebhe gatiṁ dhātry-ucitāṁ tato ‘nyaṁ kaṁ, she pretended to be a nurse. She dressed herself up, actually as a nursemaid. And because she was a wizard, she was able to make herself very beautiful so much so that the devotees in the village of Vraja, just it is an open atmosphere anyway, because everyone shares, even children, they all take care of the baby. But when she came in, she was so attractive that everyone became enamored of her, especially the men. And as was mentioned in the purport, and then they let her in, and she tried to poison Krishna. So Krishna killed her, liberated her. She achieved a very exalted position of a relationship with Krishna, like a mother in the spiritual world.

So later on, in the Bhāgavatam, we find Brahma in his prayers in the Tenth Canto, Fourteenth Chapter, He says to Krishna, “Do you have any mercy left? Because didn’t you give it all when you liberated Pūtanā? Because who could imagine anything worse? A child killer, infanticide is the worst thing. If you abuse or kill the child, you never recover practically. And so Krishna liberated, kaṁ vā dayāluṁ śaraṇaṁ vrajema. The refrain is that who would take shelter of anybody else? Krishna overlooked the fact that she was a child killer and tried to kill Him, and He said, “Well, she kind of acted like a mother.” So Brahma says, “Do you have anything left for the residents of Vrindavan? Because you must have given it all away at that point.”

And the other instance I think of is in the story of Pundarik Vidyanidhi in the Caitanya-bhāgavata, who was such a great devotee that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to call out his name, pining for his association. And one day, Mukunda told Gadadhara Pundit that, “There is a pure devotee, would you like to meet him?” And he said, “Of course I would.” He was a simple pure devotee, Gadadhara Pandit from his very childhood. So Mukunda took him to this residence, where Pundarika Vidyanidhi was, and it was a very opulent, gated community. And when he came in, he saw everything about the place looked like essentialists lived there. And when he actually entered the room, he saw Pundarik Vidyanidhi lying on a very fancy bedstead, smoking a hookah, being fanned by some servants. He was chewing pan and his hair was especially beautiful and oiled. And then in the room, there was expensive artwork, pottery, jewelry, bedecked chest, and Mukunda noticed that Gadadhara Pandit was doubtful, he could see from his countenance. So he uttered this verse, it is so famous because Vyasadeva induced his son to come back. And here Mukunda then set the verse out loud in front of Pundarik Vidyanidhi, “aho bakī yaṁ stana-kāla-kūṭaṁ.” And as soon as he heard the verse, it evoked this immediate reaction of intense love for Krishna, remembering Him in Vrindavan. And in the ecstatic reaction, he started flailing about the room, so much so that nobody could hold him down. And he was smashing all the pottery, pictures were falling off the wall, bedspread was everywhere, his hair was scattered in every direction. Then he finally went into a trance, which meant that he became inert and he didn’t arise. He couldn’t be woken up for seven hours in that devotional trance from hearing that one verse.

And then Gadadhara Pandit thought, I made an offense. In my mind, I thought this is a devotee. And so he was both impressed and also mortified that he might have offended a pure devotee or that he did offend a pure devotee. So he told Mukunda, “I want to take initiation from him.” And they went back to Mahaprabhu and told him what had happened. And he said, “I want to take initiation from Pundarik.” And Mahaprabhu said, “Do it immediately.”

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is what happened. He thought that Pundarik Vidyanidhi was a sense enjoyer. And again, Mukunda recited that verse, and Pundarik Vidyanidhi went into extreme ecstasy. And then, Gadadhara Pundit understood his exalted position, Pundarik Vidyanidhi’s exalted position, and felt that he had committed an offense. And to counteract the offense, he should take initiation from him. And Gadadhara Pundit is Srimati Radharani and Pundarik Vidyanidhi is actually Srimati Radharani’s father in kṛṣṇa-līlā. So it is a powerful verse, aho bakī yaṁ, beautiful verse.

Vaisesika Prabhu: I will read a little bit and then you can comment, if you wish. So this is going back to, this very important verse from the beginning of the Bhāgavatam, which is, nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-’bhirāmāt, which is the First Chapter. And I read the Sanskrit and the translation. And here is the first part of the purport.

ŚB 10.1.4—PURPORT

In India it is the practice among the general populace to hear about Kṛṣṇa, either from Bhagavad-gītā or from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in order to gain relief from the disease of repeated birth and death. Although India is now fallen, when there is a message that someone will speak about Bhagavad-gītā or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, thousands of people still gather to hear. This verse indicates, however, that such recitation of Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam must be done by persons completely freed from material desires (nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ). Everyone within this material world, beginning from Brahmā down to the insignificant ant, is full of material desires for sense enjoyment, and everyone is busy in sense gratification, but when thus engaged one cannot fully understand the value of kṛṣṇa-kathā, either in the form of Bhagavad-gītā or in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Giriraj Swami: Can you read the last sentence?

Vaisesika Prabhu: “Everyone within this material world, beginning from Brahmā down to the insignificant ant, is full of material desires for sense enjoyment, and everyone is busy in sense gratification, but when thus engaged one cannot fully understand the value of kṛṣṇa-kathā, either in the form of Bhagavad-gītā or in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.”

Giriraj Swami: So, atmahana, one who is an animal killer or one who is killing his soul, meaning one who is destroying his spiritual life. But a constant theme in Srila Prabhupada’s talks and also in his prosecution of Krishna consciousness is the mercy of Lord Chaitanya, such that even persons who ordinarily would not be qualified to appreciate kṛṣṇa-kathā can be made favorable. In the early days when Srila Prabhupada introduced the hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, nagara-saṅkīrtana in the streets, sometimes the devotees would have difficulty with the authorities, the police. And so Srila Prabhupada wrote a letter to the authorities, and in the letter, he wrote that the transcendental vibration will knock on the door to the hearts of the people. So by Lord Chaitanya’s mercy, even people who are atmahana, they can be purified and eventually get the chance to appreciate kṛṣṇa-kathā. We can’t imagine our good fortune being on the planet at this time because Lord Chaitanya, He is the yugāvatāra, but the yugāvatāra in every Kali-yuga is not always Lord Chaitanya. It is a very special occurrence that, after the appearance of Lord Krishna in His original form, then in the Kali-yuga, after that Krishna comes as Lord Chaitanya, as a devotee. And then Srila Prabhupada, it was predicted in various ways. So to be connected with Srila Prabhupada, either directly or in close proximity, through his disciples and his movement, is extremely fortunate. And so we should appreciate how fortunate we are to be on the planet after Krishna appeared in His original form, and then after Krishna came again as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and then after Srila Prabhupada was empowered by Krishna and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and to be connected with him.

There is that one phrase, there is a discussion how the people in Kali-yuga could be saved, and Krishna says that He will send a Senapati-bhakta, it means like devotee, commander-in-chief devotee, and that refers to Srila Prabhupada. And Lord Chaitanya also predicted that,

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma

sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma

In every town and village of every country in the world, His name, Krishna’s name would be sung or preached. And even Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, they thought that, not that it could literally happen, but it was some sort of metaphor or some poetic embellishment, and it was actually Srila Prabhupada who fulfilled that prediction and desire of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. So yes, we are so fortunate, immensely fortunate, to take full advantage and share our good fortune with others.

Vaisesika Prabhu: Let us see if you want to ask a question or bring up a point for Maharaja that is a reflection you heard so far. Anything that is stuck in your mind or if you want to ask a question to expand the conversation in a particular way. Yes, and someone will bring you a microphone as soon as you raise your hand.

Devotee: I was stuck on your point that you made that life goes on. And you said that in certain aspects, you see Krishna manifests Himself. How do you find out in what actions Krishna is manifesting and what are coming from your self-interest?

Giriraj Swami: Could you repeat the question or did you get it?

Vaisesika Prabhu: Yes, what is coming from Krishna when you are trying to decide how something that happened to you is it Krishna or is it self-manifesting something you created or is it Krishna’s mercy in a certain way, right? How do you tell the difference?

Giriraj Swami: Well, once I asked Srila Prabhupada, “If I have an idea, how do I know if it is coming from Krishna or from my mind?” And Srila Prabhupada replied, “It is better to depend on the order of the spiritual master.” So yes, we confirm, sadhu, shastra, and guru. But do you want to add anything in response to a request?

Vaisesika Prabhu: I could. Okay. Tenth Canto, Fourteenth Chapter. Maybe it is here. I think I need the next volume though—10.14.8. Because there is an important commentary in this particular verse that is quite satisfying actually. I will read the verse and purport.

ŚB 10.14.8

tat te ‘nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo
bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam
hṛd-vāg-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te
jīveta yo mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk

TRANSLATION

My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisances with his heart, words, and body, is surely eligible for liberation, for it has become his rightful claim.

PURPORT

Śrīla Śrīdhara Svāmī explains in his commentary that just as a legitimate son has to simply remain alive to gain an inheritance from his father, one who simply remains alive in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, following the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga, automatically becomes eligible to receive the mercy of the Personality of Godhead. In other words, he will be promoted to the kingdom of God.

The word su-samīkṣamāṇa indicates that a devotee earnestly awaits the mercy of the Supreme Lord even while suffering the painful effects of previous sinful activities. Lord Kṛṣṇa explains in the Bhagavad-gītā that a devotee who fully surrenders unto Him is no longer liable to suffer the reactions of his previous karma. However, because in his mind a devotee may still maintain the remnants of his previous sinful mentality, the Lord removes the last vestiges of the enjoying spirit by giving His devotee punishments that may sometimes resemble sinful reactions. The purpose of the entire creation of God is to rectify the living entity’s tendency to enjoy without the Lord, and therefore the particular punishment given for a sinful activity is specifically designed to curtail the mentality that produced the activity.

COMMENT

Were you able to hear that? I am going to repeat it because I saw there was a possible distraction.

“The purpose of the entire creation of God is to rectify the living entity’s tendency to enjoy without the Lord, and therefore the particular punishment given for a sinful activity is specifically designed to curtail the mentality that produced the activity.”

PURPORT (continued)

Although a devotee has surrendered to the Lord’s devotional service, until he is completely perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness he may maintain a slight inclination to enjoy the false happiness of this world. The Lord therefore creates a particular situation to eradicate this remaining enjoying spirit. This unhappiness suffered by a sincere devotee is not technically a karmic reaction; it is rather the Lord’s special mercy for inducing His devotee to completely let go of the material world and return home, back to Godhead.

A sincere devotee earnestly desires to go back to the Lord’s abode. Therefore he willingly accepts the Lord’s merciful punishment and continues offering respects and obeisances to the Lord with his heart, words, and body. Such a bona fide servant of the Lord, considering all hardship a small price to pay for gaining the personal association of the Lord, certainly becomes a legitimate son of God, as indicated here by the words dāya-bhāk. Just as one cannot approach the sun without becoming fire, one cannot approach the supreme pure, Lord Kṛṣṇa, without undergoing a rigid purificatory process, which may appear like suffering but which is in fact a curative treatment administered by the personal hand of the Lord.

I rest my case. Did that help?

Giriraj Swami: I would like to say something about bhāva because we are discussing bhavauṣadhi, the cure for the material disease. So Srila Prabhupada initiated a devotee and gave him the name Bhavananda, which means the bliss of the material world. So after receiving the name, Bhavananda was worried, what Srila Prabhupada was trying to tell him by giving him the name. And Srila Prabhupada explained that the bliss of the material world is preaching. The devotee experiences pleasure in the Lord’s pleasure, and we can give the Lord the greatest pleasure by bringing people to Him, which we can do only in the material world, we cannot do it in the spiritual world. And so, Bhavananda, the bliss of the material world, is in preaching and bringing people to Krishna, which gives Krishna the greatest pleasure and consequently gives the devotee the greatest pleasure. So it is the purport to the name Bhavananda.

Devotee: Hare Krishna. So, we hear a lot about how the associates of Lord Chaitanya went out and preached, and brought conditioned souls to Lord Chaitanya to become devotees or they made them devotees themselves. Was the same the case at all during kṛṣṇa-līlā? Were there pure devotees of Krishna while Krishna was on the planet who thought, “I need to go out and find conditioned souls to bring to Krishna’s lotus feet"? Was that kind of a mood manifest or was it only manifest during caitanya-līlā?

Giriraj Swami: It was prominent during caitanya-līlā. During kṛṣṇa-līlā, they were absorbed in Krishna, and pretty much everyone was a devotee. But then there were some who were demons, and Krishna would kill them. And as Srila Prabhupada explains that Krishna would literally kill the demons, but Chaitanya Mahaprabhu would kill their demonic mentalities. He wouldn’t physically kill them. Krishna was, of course, in His earlier. . .Yes, anyway, Krishna would literally kill them. But Chaitanya Mahaprabhu would not kill them, but He would kill their demonic mentalities, like Jagai and Madhai.

Vaisesika Prabhu: I think it is worth also remembering in kṛṣṇa-līlā how merciful Krishna was directly Himself. We already talked about Pūtanā and the deliverance, but then we have sixteen thousand queens that had been usurped, kidnapped and held. Then there are the kings that Jarasandha had put away in the caves and mountains, never to be heard from again, and Krishna rescued them. And as Prabhupada points out, the sixteen thousand queens in the culture at that time, because they had been kidnapped and manhandled, there was a way they wouldn’t be accepted back into society. But Krishna accepted them as wives personally. And speak of the kings; He reinstated them in their position. And so you see quite directly all the way from Pūtanā and all the demons Krishna killed. There is Kurukshetra battle where even Uddhava, in a kind of lament, says, “I wish I was as fortunate as these fighting soldiers who were fighting against the Pandavas, fighting against Krishna. I think they are more advanced than I am, that they were able to see Krishna on the battlefield as they were dying and so forth.” Everywhere Krishna went, He also amassed huge numbers of people. Same time, Jarasandha, he fought with seventeen times, and he basically, forgive the words, but slaughtered them. Of course, because of His nature, He liberated all of them. But He made sure that they kept coming back. Specifically, He didn’t kill Jarasandha because He wanted Jarasandha to go back and then remarshal all these people and bring them over and over again so that He could liberate them. And same with Kurukshetra, He gathered everybody in one place specifically so He could give them that benediction of dying on the battlefields while He was there. So Krishna sort of handled the whole thing Himself at that time everywhere He went.

Giriraj Swami: After we arrived in Bombay with Srila Prabhupada, after about two weeks, Srila Prabhupada was invited to Amritsar, and so we all went by train. And in Amritsar, we were invited by a well, he was definitely a kshatriya, sort of like royalty. And his name is Baladevendra Singh. And Baladevendra Singh, disclosed to Srila Prabhupada that an astrologer had told him that he had fought in the Battle of Kurukshetra against Krishna, and he was very mortified by that thought. And Srila Prabhupada said that could not be true because everyone who was killed on the battlefield of Kurukshetra was liberated. So you don’t have to worry about that.

Vaisesika Prabhu: I will read just another little section, first to consider. If we hear the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And I am taking up again at 10.1.4, second paragraph.

If we hear the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from liberated persons, this hearing will certainly free us from the bondage of material activities, but hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam spoken by a professional reciter cannot actually help us achieve liberation. Kṛṣṇa-kathā is very simple. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As He Himself explains, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: “O Arjuna, there is no truth superior to Me.” (Bg. 7.7) Simply by understanding this fact — that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead — one can become a liberated person. But, especially in this age, because people are interested in hearing Bhagavad-gītā from unscrupulous persons who depart from the simple presentation of Bhagavad-gītā and distort it for their personal satisfaction, they fail to derive the real benefit. There are big scholars, politicians, philosophers, and scientists who speak on Bhagavad-gītā in their own polluted way, and people in general hear from them, being uninterested in hearing the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from a devotee. A devotee is one who has no other motive for reciting Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam than to serve the Lord. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore advised us to hear the glories of the Lord from a realized person (bhāgavata paro diya bhāgavata sthane). Unless one is personally a realized soul in the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, a neophyte should not approach him to hear about the Lord, for this is strictly forbidden by Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī, who quotes from the Padma Purāṇa:

avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ
pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtam
śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyaṁ
sarpocchiṣṭaṁ yathā payaḥ

One should avoid hearing from a person not situated in Vaiṣṇava behavior. A Vaiṣṇava is nivṛtta-tṛṣṇa; that is, he has no material purpose, for his only purpose is to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So-called scholars, philosophers, and politicians exploit the importance of Bhagavad-gītā by distorting its meaning for their own purposes. Therefore this verse warns that kṛṣṇa-kathā should be recited by a person who is nivṛtta-tṛṣṇa. Śukadeva Gosvāmī epitomizes the proper reciter for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and Parīkṣit Mahārāja, who purposefully left his kingdom and family prior to meeting death, epitomizes the person fit to hear it. A qualified reciter of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam gives the right medicine (bhavauṣadhi) for the conditioned souls. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is therefore trying to train qualified preachers to recite Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā throughout the entire world, so that people in general in all parts of the world may take advantage of this movement and thus be relieved of the threefold miseries of material existence.

Giriraj Swami: Bravo! (Laughter) Srila Prabhupada often said that the Krishna consciousness movement was rendering the best welfare service to humanity, and this purport explains why. Because by receiving Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, people are freed from all the miseries of material existence, and beyond that, they relish a personal relationship with Krishna. Someone once quoted, because generally we hear that when Srila Prabhupada had the First Canto published in Delhi in three volumes, he felt ready to come to America. But someone commented that Srila Prabhupada said that he didn’t bring Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to America, but Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam came to America, and he went with it. But the person-bhāgavata and the book-Bhāgavata. In the early days in India, Srila Prabhupada kept us so busy that I hardly time to read. So one day in his room in Calcutta, I didn’t say anything, but Srila Prabhupada must have read my mind, and he quoted the verse, I think 1.2.17 or 18.

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu
 nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā
 bhagavaty uttama-śloke
 bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī

And Srila Prabhupada was encouraging me by saying that by reading the book-Bhāgavata or serving the person-bhāgavata, you get the same result. And by serving the person-bhāgavata, all the truths of the book-Bhāgavata are revealed, even if you don’t read the book. So that was very reassuring, because we didn’t have time. But under ordinary circumstances, certainly we should read the book-Bhāgavata and serve the person-bhāgavata. But at that time, I really couldn’t read. And Srila Prabhupada encouraged me that by serving the person-bhāgavata, all the truths of the book-Bhāgavata are revealed, even if you don’t read the book. How did we get here?

Vaisesika Prabhu:

avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ
pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtam
śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyaṁ
sarpocchiṣṭaṁ yathā payaḥ

Giriraj Swami: So yes. I would just be repeating literally, Srila Prabhupada really did warn devotees, not only devotees, people in general, not to hear professional reciters. And there is a very early letter from Srila Prabhupada, because Srila Prabhupada sent Gurudasa, Yamuna, and me to his quarters at the Radha-Damodara temple in Vrindavan. And he asked us to go through his old things. So there was a letter that Srila Prabhupada wrote to a person who was doing a bhāgavata-saptāha, I guess like a professional reciter. And that person had invited Srila Prabhupada to attend. And Srila Prabhupada replied, “Not only will I not attend, but I will tell everyone I know that they also should not attend.” So yes, he didn’t want them to drink milk touched by the lips of a serpent. It is just a small thing, but there was quite a famous Bhāgavata reciter named Dongre Maharaja. And apparently the word Dongre means something like imitation. And he would discuss Krishna’s disappearance pastimes. And Srila Prabhupada said that devotees actually don’t like to discuss that, and no devotee likes to discuss his disappearance pastime. But yes, it is not really necessary to mention any names. And also, that bhāgavata-saptāha, reciting Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam for seven days, saptāha, like Maharaja Parīkṣit heard for seven days from Śukadeva Gosvami. But Srila Prabhupada said that is not really the process. It should be, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. you should hear regularly, daily, not just for seven days.

Vaisesika Prabhu: Just continuing on the theme and the verse, avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ. This is quote from Puranas by Prabhupada points out, Śukadeva Gosvami brought this verse up. It says literally that if you hear from somebody who is not a Vaishnava, means they don’t believe in Krishna, avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtam, normally the hari-kathā is purifying as we are discussing, pūtaṁ. However, śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyaṁ sarpocchiṣṭaṁ yathā payaḥ, it is an analogy that if you have milk that is very nourishing and healthy, some little bowl of hints of milk comes from Yamuna’s cows, and then a snake gets in, drinks some and leaves a little trace of poison in the milk. That normally nourishing substance will become poisonous for the person who drinks it. So what is it? This is a topic about how sound carries consciousness.

It comes up also in the Fourth Canto of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the context of Pṛthu Maharaja. Because Pṛthu Maharaja mentions that when a pure devotee speaks, the sound is not like an ordinary person speaking because of the purity of heart. And he gives this very poetical explanation of the phenomena. Actually, it is not a phenomenon, it is beyond the material world. It is a metaphysical occurrence. Because he says that Krishna has saffron on his lotus feet. If you worship the deity, make some sandalwood paste and in it, you put some sandalwood which you grind on the stone, a little bit of camphor, make sure it is not synthetic, and then a little bit of saffron. And so you grind those things together and you use rose water and you get this paste which is otherworldly. Nobody gets that. People spray on all kinds of stuff. It is usually made out of urea and all kinds of other things. But this sandalwood is completely pure and transcendental, and it is applied by the pujaris to the lotus feet of the deity. And Krishna has such beautiful substances and fragrances on His person.

So, Pṛthu Maharaja says, when a pure devotee speaks, the vibration of their voice touches the lotus feet of Krishna because it is so personal and loving. And then the sound vibration of this person’s voice becomes mixed with the saffron particles from Krishna’s feet. So, when it enters our ears, it has a different effect. And Prabhupada goes on to explain that when a person is able to speak like that because of purity, then everybody notices the difference. You may be erudite in your expressions, even poetical, but the pure devotee, even if the syntax is simpler, has this effect on us where the heart changes and we say, “Oh, I am going to surrender to Krishna now,” because of the purity. So it brings up a really important philosophical point. How does that happen? Because someone might say, “Well, the holy name is the holy name, so what is the difference?” In fact, someone was badgering me with that question the other day when we were somewhere. And it is answered in the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eighty-fourth Chapter, in “The Prayers of Personified Vedas.” A similar question has been asked for many generations and the answer has been passed down. And the personified Vedas talk about the way in which people ask this question. How with the material apparatus, which is the ear, and obviously, struck sound, which we are hearing right now, is something that is causing airwaves to hit the eardrum, and then the nerve that goes to the brain that carries that impulse then gives us some impression. So how is it that something spiritual can be transacted or transmitted rather through the medium of matter? And then Prabhupada explains in the Kṛṣṇa book that this is a referend on whether God is personal or impersonal.

So because he is personal and because he is a master of all energies, yogeshwar, yugeshwar, he is the master of all yogis and the master of all energies, therefore he can transform material energy into spiritual energy. And so when a pure devotee is speaking, he makes it so that the sound vibration is transformative. And when somebody else’s materialistic speaks, it doesn’t have, it has the opposite effect. And it is very interesting too because our intention is so important. It is the main factor, if you consider the American legal system, that is considered in a crime. You try to figure out first of all if the person actually did it or not. If you can ascertain that, maybe the person confesses. But then the next question and the most important question is, did he mean to do it? Because if it was an accident, you don’t get charged very heavily. But if you did it purposefully, you had the intention to do it, then it becomes even a capital crime if you killed somebody. How do we measure intention? People try to do it all the time. And the subtlety of that enters into the arena of spiritual realization that when the intention of the person who is speaking is to serve Krishna, then the experience is completely different and transformative. Whereas some materialistic person, as Prabhupada used to say, he would watch these bhāgavata-saptāha deliverers and on the break, they go behind the stage and smoke a cigarette, meaning they weren’t following any process. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati made a diorama of a person who is expounding on the Bhāgavatam, but there was a thin veil in behind him. There was always material attachments and he was doing it as a business. So he was pointing out that the effectiveness was limited because not limited, it is actually retrograde because of the intention of the person, purpose of the person speaking—om tat sat.

Giriraj Swami: Yes. One element that is involved in any preaching effort is prayer. As Srila Prabhupada wrote, when he came on the Jaladuta, he prayed to Krishna to make the power of his speech suitable for the audience. And when we preach also, we pray that Krishna will inspire the audience to hear His message favorably. So with a professional who is just reciting the Bhāgavatam as a business, he won’t be praying for his words to be suitable and he won’t be praying for his audience to receive Krishna’s message and the prayers are very powerful. In fact, in my initiation letter, Srila Prabhupada wrote one line.

“So I noted it in your presence when I was in Boston and I prayed to Krishna that this good soul may become aware of the importance of Krishna consciousness.”

So yes, the prayers of the pure devotee are very powerful and we get those prayers when pure devotee speaks.

Vaisesika Prabhu: Also, in this section, the author points out that it is not just the speaker, it is also the audience that makes a difference. Because he gave this example. Well, he mentioned the context how Śukadeva Gosvami is speaking to Parīkṣit Maharaja. And it is not only that the speaker has to be potent because of being a pure devotee, but also the listener does too. In other words, the listener has to be sincere. Otherwise, the speaker can be inhibited. And oftentimes, the audience can become burdensome. Just the other day, Gurudasa Prabhu was telling us that he was once giving a lecture somewhere when he first went to India. And at that time, because this conversation, the way it evolved, we were talking about the old days and how when we used to go to India, if you brought a tape recorder with you, which was a really high-tech item, not just in India, but in America, but especially in India, at the customs, you would have to write down the serial number on your passport and make sure you brought it back out again. They had some protectionism going on there in commerce. And what to speak of watches? They were really hard to come by too. So wherever we went, people, they often said, they would ask, “Can I buy the watch? Follow you down the street.” Actually, they didn’t want to buy it necessarily. Some people wanted to buy it, and some just wanted you to give it to them. But in any case, Gurudasa was speaking, and he saw that the audience was kind of interested, but especially one young man was really leaning into the conversation or into his talk. And he thought, Oh, this must be really an advanced person. He is so eager to hear. And at the end of the conversation, Gurudasa asked for any questions, and this young man said, “How much for the watch?” [Laughter] And then the sense of, “Oh, this person’s really eager to hear,” was broken.

And it reminded me of a really short story that I think Srila Sridhra Maharaja told about this Muslim mullah who used to go from one village to the next and give these talks. And the crowd would come and would listen in the village, like a bhāgavata-saptāha. And then he had this white beard. Some mullahs keep a beard like that. And there was a woman in the audience who would start weeping every day when he was speaking. And he was thinking the whole time that, Wow, I am so potent. The way I am speaking, and this audience is receiving so nicely. So after the saptāha was over, they were having a mixer, and the people, the village, and he was talking to various people, and that woman was there. So he said, “Wow, I really appreciated you showed up every day, and I saw how it moved you. You were so affected by this.” And he said, “I saw even tears were coming from your eyes. So what was about my talk? Which part really moved you?” And she said, “Not exactly like that.” She said, “In our family, we had this pet goat for many years, and he had a beard exactly like yours. And whenever you would speak, your beard would wag, and it reminded of me of our dear beloved pet goat. And therefore, tears came from my eyes.” And it is just indicative of the important conditions under which there is transmission of the transcendental vibration in such a powerful way that it changes the heart. The speaker has to be a pure devotee, and the listeners have to be aspiring pure devotees. And once Prabhupada wrote a letter, he said, “If you desire pure devotional service, you are a pure devotee. It is just the desire to have it.”

That atmosphere is really important. Prabhupada went out of his way to create the environment like we are in now. As Maharaja pointed out earlier, he made this environment for us so that we could be with pure devotees and speak about the Bhāgavatam, and both parties would benefit.

Giriraj Swami: He gave the example that if the man is potent and the woman is fertile, then conception can take place. So in the same way, if the speaker is potent, pure and if the audience is fertile, sincere, then the transmission of transcendental knowledge can take place.

Yamuna devi: It is so nice to be here, and be a part of hearing this conversation. In your story about the woman with the goat memory reminded me of a question someone brought to me last week. And this practice, there is the book Chant and Be Happy and it brings so much joy. And then sometimes you come to the temple or you are in a class, something strikes a chord, and sometimes you are just crying and tears are coming out. And someone asked me about feeling a little confused about why they go to the temple and they just cry. Or I had met someone at Ratha-yatra last week, and they just started crying as the Lord’s cart went by. And so I just was wondering if you could speak a little on this. It is such a joyful process, and sometimes you are in kirtan and you just have the biggest feelings of joy you could ever imagine, have ever felt in your life. And at the same time, it really can just churn out really deep emotions as well. And maybe if you could just speak a little about that.

Giriraj Swami: Well, sometimes people cry out of sadness, and sometimes they cry out of happiness. So just because they are crying doesn’t necessarily mean they are sad. They could be shedding tears of happiness. But it can happen. I have heard people say as much that the chanting brings up emotions that have been buried beneath the surface for a long time, and those could be sad. But it is good that those are coming out, and it is recommended to just let them go, just tolerate them, and let them go. So that is also not bad. It is not that the chanting is making them sad, but they have some sadness that has been buried underneath the surface, and the chanting is giving it a chance to come out, which is good. It is getting them purified. That is my response.

Vaisesika Prabhu: It reminds me of a verse, and we will try to get more to the specific point you are asking about. It is a verse that Srila Isvara Puri gave to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu after his initiation. Mahaprabhu had received initiation from Srila Isvara Puri in Gaya when he went there to perform the last rites, not last rights, but the Pinda ceremony. He was doing sraddha. And when he got initiated by Srila Isvara Puri, he came back to his guru a little later, and he said that, “I want to check in with you to see if I received the right mantra.” And upon enquiring further, his guru asked him, “Why are you asking that?” And he said that when I chant this mantra you gave me, it makes me sometimes incoherent. Sometimes I cry, sometimes I laugh.”