Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON Management

Giriraj Swami: For the devotees on Zoom, as far as possible, I request you to put on your cameras so we can see your moonlit faces and it will be more personal.

Devotee: We have forty-five minutes with you, for which we are really grateful. This conversation is being recorded because future generations will want to hear what Giriraj Maharaja has to say about these two fundamentally important questions. The first one, Maharaja, is that I mean you had so much of an association with Srila Prabhupada on the level of management and otherwise. We wanted to ask you, what are your recollections of Srila Prabhupada’s approach to management in particular that he was so successful in providing such inspirational leadership? If you could please share with us what your experience was.

Giriraj Swami: Srila Prabhupada always used to say that ISKCON is a volunteer organization, and we cannot force anyone, but he inspired devotees to serve to the best of their abilities. In general, he engaged the devotees according to their natures and propensities, but sometimes the service required them to act against their own desires. But he would also assess the devotees’ degree of surrender, and he would not ask them to do something that was beyond their level of surrender. I will give one example. Srila Prabhupada disciple, HG Late Yasomati Nandan dasa, he was Gujarati, he was in Juhu, he wanted to go to Gujarat and begin the preaching there. But Srila Prabhupada wanted him in Juhu. Juhu was very important to Srila Prabhupada and he wanted Yasomati Nandan Prabhu’s participation here. But at a certain point when Srila Prabhupada felt he could be spared, SP let him go to Gujarat as he desired. In my own case, I prefer to preach rather than manage, but SP wanted me to take charge of the Juhu project. So, I surrendered and did what he wanted, and I definitely do not regret it. I was glad that I could do that, set aside my personal desires, and serve him as he wanted. I feel like I got immense blessings because of surrender and service.

Devotee: Thank you Maharaja. What we are going to do because these are treasured moment and I want to optimize the time. I am just anxious these forty-five minutes will just evaporate. We have two questions for you.

Devotee: You mentioned this very important thing of when we serving with devotees it is a voluntary service, what Srila Prabhupada said and it is based on the inspiration. It is good when you have this certain rapport with devotees, but I think in services where there are areas of challenge and one may not be able to suitably agree with somebody, but at the same time it is important to engage everyone as being servants — what would you suggest how we inspire devotees who are serving with us that are the same age or the same level and devotees who are serving under us, our support team so that they are inspired and keep a balance of being professional at the same time also being devotional?

Giriraj Swami: It is a good question. Well, Srila Prabhupada was the acharya, founder acharya, and acharya means one who teaches by example. And I saw so many times when Srila Prabhupada would go out of his way to set an example for us, even when it was difficult for him. For example, we were at the Ardh Khumba-mela, and it was very cold in the morning and many devotees, including myself, had a tendency just to stay in their sleeping bags. And one morning, Srila Prabhupada came out. It was, as I mentioned, very cold and he took a bath. There was a well and that water was very cold, but he took a bath with that cold well water. And of course, when we heard that Srila Prabhupada was out taking a bath, we all got out of our sleeping bags and ran out to do what we were supposed to do. So, our example is very important, [Unintelligible] said “Actions speak louder than words.” So, yes, we should be the example of what we want the devotees working with us or working under us to be like. I am not sure I addressed your question exactly, but if you want you could reframe?

Devotee: No, I think that was perfect. Thank you so much.

Giriraj Swami: Thank you.

Devotee: Maharaja, one of the slides that was presented in a previous session, it said, “Giriraj Swami recalls with great difficulty.” Srila Prabhupada said, “Organization, intelligence and organization.” Can you please speak to the pastime and explain a little bit about organization and intelligence?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that was a very significant exchange with Srila Prabhupada. Maybe three days before he left, and I was sleeping on the roof of the gurukula building, and the devotee woke me up and said, “Srila Prabhupada just called me for you.” And in those days, Srila Prabhupada was ill, and anything he said, we thought could have been his last words. So, I came down to his room. He was lying on his bed, and he asked me, “So, what do you think? Will this movement go on after I leave?” And I said, “Yes, Srila Prabhupada. As long as the devotees are sincere, chant their rounds, and follow the regulative principles, it will go on.” And then Srila Prabhupada again, with great difficulty, he said, “Organization, intelligence, and organization.” And later, I reflected on his response. And yes, of course, for our own spiritual lives, we have to be sincere and chant our rounds and follow the regulative principles. But to spread Krishna consciousness, which Srila Prabhupada wanted, we need organization, intelligence, and organization. That is my understanding of the purport of Srila Prabhupada’s instruction: “Organization, intelligence, and organization,” for spreading Krishna consciousness.

Devotee: Maharaja, are we to understand that Srila Prabhupada was saying that we have ISKCON. It is organized, but in the future, some reorganization or some organization needs to be done to accommodate the growth and different things that happen. And that we need the intelligence to know how to do it.

Is that in a sense, what Prabhupada was saying, because the structure that we are proposing, the entire thing is predicated on this one statement: “Organization and intelligence.” Because we are seeing a GBC body, a body of sadhus, the head of the society, but there is no neck, there is no support, there is no execution ability. We have a situation. We have no institutional records. We do not know our members. We have a sense of our properties. We have a number like four billion US Dollars. We know Mayapur—six hundred million dollars, but we have no strong Global online presence. We have no really organizational intelligence in the sense that we have no vision, like a vision statement. We have no dedicated communication desk. A spiritual Master, or a sannyasi leaves this world, a devotee leaves this world, and he has done fifty years for Prabhupada, his legacy and everything that the world should celebrate in the future of this exalted person, such a contribution to the saṅkīrtana movement is left in the hands of his disciples, not the institution. The institution has no ability to, we do not really have any in-house governance expertise, kind of no coordinating management force, disconnected in some ways. So are we thinking correctly when Prabhupada was saying “intelligence” that we need to fix some of these, because these things are important fifty years from now or one hundred years from now people will want to know more about who built the Juhu Temple and what happened, so we have a book, but somebody has to preserve that. There has to be some organization with things that digitalize that, is that an extension of what we are thinking about in terms of organizational intelligence.

Giriraj Swami: Srila Prabhupada said, “I have given you the framework, now you have to fill it in, so yes, he would want us to use our intelligence and develop the organization and the best way for future generations and he would be pleased with that ongoing effort.

Devotee: Okay.

Devotee: Thank you very much Giriraj Maharaja. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I was hearing your response and the response by Govardhana Prabhu. I have always thought, how much should ISKCON really be corporatized, how many systems do we need to put in place in ISKCON. Because, when you are preaching, we are saying that we are depending on Krishna by everything and Krishna is in control, we are the instruments in Krishna’s hands. So this is the foundational principles of our preaching movement and on the other hand, we are trying to create structures, organizations, [Unintelligible] systems in place, having people, very competent as managers to be running the institution and management is such a thankless task in one sense that we are required to do so many things which may not be really Krishna conscious like telling devotees not to do this service but to do something else or not to do any service at all. Just sit and chant your rounds and things like that is, the responsibility of the manager.

I think at some point in time, somebody had mentioned that a temple president is actually one of the most hated persons in the temple. So, that being the case, I was just trying to understand Maharaja, because in your own personal life you have exemplified this particular quality of being Srila Prabhupada’s servant and, one of the most important managers in Juhu, who set up the Juhu temple from ground zero and what it is today and it is one of the most visible temples in the whole of the country, and now that ISKCON has gravitated towards, India, in the sense that the major activities of ISKCON is now in India and within that, Juhu is the most prominent Temple, in the whole of India. So that has been your contribution Maharaja and I am sure that for the next ten thousand years, history will never ever forget that, but then you yourself at some point in time said that I would like to be out of management and move into preaching. So, Maharaja, my question is that this dichotomy that is there in an organization like ours, which is supposed to be focused on surrender to Krishna and depending on Krishna, to what extent do we really want to corporatize ISKCON?

Giriraj Swami: Well, there are advantages to a corporate model, but I think of a very significant letter that Srila Prabhupada wrote, which I would like to read from because it highlights a possible, negative effect of too much corporatization, so I will read that. So, this is a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Karandhara, dated December 22nd, 1972,

“Regarding your points about taxation, corporate status, etc., I have heard from Jaya Tirtha that you want to make a big plan for centralization of management, taxes, monies, corporate status, bookkeeping, credit, like that. I do not at all approve of such a plan. Do not centralize anything. Each temple must remain independent and self-sufficient.”

That was, of course, what your suggestion does not necessarily counter this, but this is what Srila Prabhupada wrote,

“That was my plan from the very beginning. Why are you thinking otherwise? The only thing I wanted was that book printing and distribution should be centralized. Otherwise, management, everything should be done by local men. Accounts must be kept. Things must be in order and done lawfully. But that should be each temple’s concern. The Krishna Consciousness movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent in all types of departments of knowledge and action, not for making bureaucracy. Once there is bureaucracy, the whole thing will be spoiled. There must be always individual striving and work and responsibility, competitive spirit, not that one shall dominate and distribute benefits to the others and they do nothing but beg from you and you provide” and then he also speaks about following the regulative principles, the importance and, he says that “Krishna consciousness should always be a fresh challenge, that that will encourage the devotees or inspire the devotees to meet the challenge by, strictly following the regulative principles”. So, the future of this Krishna Consciousness movement is very bright as long as the managers remain vigilant that sixteen rounds are being chanted by everyone without fail, that they are all rising before four in the morning attending maṅgala-ārati. Our leaders shall be careful not to kill the spirit of enthusiastic spirit, which is individual, spontaneous, and voluntary. They should always try to generate some atmosphere of fresh challenge for the devotees so that they will agree enthusiastically to rise and meet it. That is the art of management, to draw out spontaneous loving spirit of sacrificing some energy for Krishna. All of us should become expert managers and preachers. We should not be very much after comforts and be complacent or self-centered. There must always be some tapasya, strictly observing the regulative principles. Krishna Consciousness movement must always be a challenge, a great achievement that can be gained by voluntary desire to do it and that will keep us healthy.”

So, it is a beautiful letter from Srila Prabhupada with important instructions.

Devotee: Thank you very much. In fact, the whole purpose of us is, I would say the foundational, guiding principle for us is just to be a support function to the EC of the GBC. And, through the EC of the GBC also to the GBC members and [Unintelligible]. So I think, we have to keep that always in mind, build relationships with the GBC members and work in a way that we are serving in a way that we are keeping the principles of this particular communication that is very clear in front of us. Thank you, Maharaja. Thank you very much.

Giriraj Swami: Nice. Thank you.

Devotee: Maharaja, from that letter, it was a very beautiful letter speaking a lot about management and the art of management and the ideals that should be in place for anyone going into an ISKCON management service. But on the other side, when one goes into the service, there is often certain casualties that I experienced or certain wounds that are inflicted, it is not a service that goes as smoothly sometimes as one would like. So, if you were writing an ISKCON management survival guide for new managers coming into the service, what would be some of the things that you would include there? Because as you were reading the letter, it highlighted so many different parts that is there about books being the basis, purity being the force, preaching being the essence and utility being the principle, and keeping that in the center is one side, but actually surviving the service and coming out with your faith still intact, both in the process as well as in the devotees that are there. What would you put into an ISKCON management Survival Guide for devotees that are entering Management Service in the current ISKCON? Thank you.

Giriraj Swami: First point would be good sadhana. We had so many challenges in Juhu, but I was always very attentive to chant my rounds early in the morning, and I got a lot of clarity for my service as well as spiritual strength to face the challenges by that japa early in the morning, and another important factor is association. Srila Prabhupada said 90percent of Krishna consciousness is association. So, if we have good association, that would definitely help us to survive. In the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Srila Rupa Gosvami lists sixty-four items of devotional service, and of the sixty-four, he says, five are most potent, “sādhu-saṅgo, nāma-kīrtana, bhāgavata-śravaṇa, mathurā-vāsa, śrī-mūrtira śraddhāya sevana.” And regarding sādhu-saṅgo, he gives a definition, “sajātīyāśaye snigdhe, sādhau saṅgaḥ svato vare.” Sa-jātīya means, in a way you can say like-minded, for us, that would mean followers of Srila Prabhupada. Snigdhe, means that, it can be taken in different ways, one meaning is that the sadhu should be affectionate to you, and svato vare – the sadhu should be more advanced than you. So, that kind of sādhu-saṅga, of course, we live with devotees, we want to associate with devotees, and serve devotees, but to really sustain us spiritually, that kind of sādhu-saṅga, of devotees who are affectionate to us, and more advanced than we are will really help us.

Devotee: I want to show you something, on the screen, about organization and intelligence. Is that clear? A slide shows GBC 2.0, which has over fifty oversight relationships. Four main categories emanate from the GBC: (i) Committees, (ii). Hierarchy (iii). ISKCON Supported organizations and (iv). In meeting attendance.

1. Each of these four categories have numerous sections and subsections, for e.g. The Committees have an Auditor, GBC Mayapur Office manager, Deputies, several ad-hoc committees that are not kept track of, Sastric Advisory Committee, Treasurer, Office (includes Legal, Child protection, properties, Global duties office, leadership sexual misconduct). The Committees are further subdivided into a. Several annually appointed committees (GBC-BBT, Organizational development, Justice development, SPT, Guru services, Guru Dakshina, Vaishnava Calendar, Nominations) and Ministries (Congregation development, Communications, Cow protection and Agriculture, Deity worship, Fund development, Justice, Kirtan, Padayatra, Vaishnavi, Youth, Sannyasa and Book Distribution)

2. Hierarchy has five sub-groups: (i) Global Duty officers, (ii) Gurus, (iii) Ministers, (iv) Zonal Supervisors and (v) Sanyasis.

3. In meeting attendance has ten sub-groups: (i) Ministers, (ii) SABHA representatives (iii) GBC Zonal secretaries (iv) GBC EC (v) Global GBCs (vi) GBC Emeriti (vii) GBC Corresponding Secretary (viii) Parliamentarian (ix) GBC EC Secretary and (x) GBC Executive Secretariat Director

Giriraj Swami: Yes, I can see it.

Devotee: Maharaja, this is what confronts the GBC today. fifty oversight relationships; all these arrows indicate an oversight roles- and this is what the team of four devotees are trying to unpack. So, you can see, so many committees, so many ministries, so many meetings, and legal also. So many senior devotees, Bhurijana Prabhu, have identified a bloated structure, need to fortify the movement, things like that and then we identified limited executive capacity as the solution, and this is what they will do and what we didn’t want to happen was this. . .A cartoon shows six people seated around a table in conversation with a caption beneath “What if we don’t change at all . . . and something magical just happens?”

Giriraj Swami: (laughs) Indeed!

Devotee: Lastly this document that was written was inspired by the statement of organization and intelligence. It is a whole discussion paper, so your recollection of that and recording of that has led to this GBC 2.0 TIME FOR CHANGE, the discussion paper which has led to so much of discussion and the appointment of these four individuals, so we will also ask you to kindly bless these individuals that they be able to execute this.

Giriraj Swami: I wish them all the best, by Srila Prabhupada and the paramparā’s grace.

Devotee: A question I was reflecting on as you spoke around the prophet emphasizing the devotees must be enthusiastic and act independently and manages must create that space for Independence which will probably also emphasize the spirit of cooperation the need for cooperation and I wanted to put to you if you could elaborate on this point of cooperation, like when should a proper emphasize cooperation, what is cooperation in the context of serving in ISKCON or participating in ISKCON mean and how does that cooperation reconcile with Independence?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, Srila Prabhupada said, yes, your love for me will be shown by how you cooperate after I leave, and I will give one example, from my experience. After Srila Prabhupada left, one of my godbrothers came to Juhu and asked me for some money from Srila Prabhupada’s funds for some purpose, which I felt, Srila Prabhupada would not want the money used for, but at the same time, I knew that Srila Prabhupada wanted us to cooperate and maintain good relations with one another. So, I went up to see Srila Prabhupada’s room on the fifth floor in June, and I and I prayed to him, what should I do, and the answer I got was that, I should give him the money even though it is not ordinarily the way Srila Prabhupada would have wanted the money spent, but he felt that maintaining good relations with that devotee and keeping that devotee encouraged was more important. So sometimes we have to choose, but if we always keep Srila Prabhupada in mind and pray to him for mercy and guidance.

Devotee: Thank you, so we have six more minutes with Maharaja. I think what we could do is also open the floor to the other wonderful devotees who are here with us today.

Giriraj Swami: That sounds good, yes.

Devotee: Anybody else who wants to say something please do, please raise your hand. We have eighty-one participants on the score, Hare Krishna!

Devotee: Hare Krishna Govardhana Prabhu. Thank you for the opportunity. I had a question, guru Maharaja, about Srila Prabhupada encouraging devotees to, like GBCs and Temple presidents that it is a lifetime service, and just that concept seems not to go in sync with the way the modern world thinks retiring is an important part of the career to allow fresh thinking and fresh ideas, new energy to come in. So, I just wanted some comment from you, your take on what we have heard that Prabhupada sort of preferred that GBC stay for life, or Temple president stays for life and how could that be engaged in the current context that we find ourselves in?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, he didn’t want devotees to whimsically leave their service but if there is a good reason to, move on, as you said, give younger devotees a chance to come up and I think he would approve and what one should still be available to support and encourage the younger devotee who comes into the position that we occupied, but serve for life I think the purport was that we should not whimsically give up our services, it was there some good reason to make space for someone else. I am sure he would approve.

Giriraj Swami: I just want to clarify that Nanda Kishore Prabhu has his hand up is that new or is that from before?

Devotee: I wanted to ask that often in service there is different perspectives there is different suggestions as to how things may be taken forward and there is not always natural agreement that is reached quite easily sometimes there is conflict and disagreement, what is your experience and direction around how to preserve relationships in service even though there may be disagreements sometimes strong disagreements on particular points and topics?

Giriraj Swami: Well we should deal with one another with respect but I do think of something interesting that Srila Prabhupada said at the Hyderabad Farm there were three very, you could say strong-minded individuals who didn’t, usually agree with one another, and Srila Prabhupada said “You meet, you fight like cats and dogs, and then we go on the creek you go ahead.” So that is I guess one model.

Devotee: We are at exactly forty-five minutes that you have given us. I want to thank you profusely and really appreciate your time and guidance and for your wonderful Association. We feel very benefited thank you so much and hopefully in the future we might call upon again to when this team is already in place for more guidance and as they actually execute the task it is based on some of the questions I am assuming it is informed by some experience they may want to delve a bit deeper into it so we will have an opportunity to do that. All the other devotees in the call thank you so much as you want to have a say a final word and then we can close no.

Giriraj Swami: I just appreciate all the efforts the devotees are making to implement Srila Prabhupada’s will and if we are going to end now, I suggest we conclude with Vaishnava praṇāmas.

“I offer respectful obeisances unto all the Vaishnava devotees of the Lord, who can fulfill the desires of everyone, just like desire trees, and are full of compassion for the fallen conditioned souls.”

vāñchā-kalpa-tarubhyaś ca

kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca

patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo

vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namah