Judaism and Vaishnavism—Sri Krishna Janmashtami

Giriraj Swami: Hare Krishna, my dear devotees. We have a rabbi from the Jewish tradition who is visiting, and he has some questions that would be of interest to all of us. Would you like to introduce yourself and give us a little background?

(Maharaja invites the Rabbi to sit next to him and then offers his garland to him.)

Rabbi Charnes: Well, Shalom, everybody. Shalom in Hebrew is one way that we greet. The basic sense of the word is it means hello, but it also means peace and wholeness. Because when we greet another person, another person who is broken, another person who is struggling, your presence, simply greeting them, being with them, offers them a wholeness that they didn’t have before. So, greeting another person with Haribol or however we greet, our presence actually brings peace and wholeness. So thank you for welcoming me and for greeting me. I am a rabbi in the Jewish tradition. We call our leaders rabbis. The word itself means, on one level, it means “my teacher.” So, we have a person who is my teacher, an individual connection with somebody to help us walk through life and lead us into a better way of living. I am here today to learn more about your faith tradition, and I am honored to be here with you.

I have been at a few Hare Krishna temples before, but this is the first time I have had this type of an engagement or an opportunity. And from what I know of Eastern thought, we have much in common, but we are different paths. We follow different ways into that one God that we all believe in. And what I thought I would do today when I was asked to come up is, I would help us understand maybe some of the areas that we differ, but also areas that we probably share in common as far as God and our relationship and our connection with Him. So, my first question, if that is okay, is in Judaism, we also believe in one God. I am not sure of the nature of the Oneness in your tradition—if the many are manifestations of One or if it is One God ultimately, or there are many Gods? So, the first question I would like to understand is Krishna the Prime God of many, or is He the singular dimension of God with many manifestations? Is it multiplicity, plurality, or singularity with many manifestations or aspects?

Giriraj Swami: That is a very good question. Well, in the Vedic tradition, there is one Supreme God, Krishna. But he also manifests himself in other forms, but they are still the same one Supreme God. In addition to the Supreme Godhead, there are devas or devatas, which we call in English demigods. They are not God, but they are powerful living entities who have been entrusted with important services in the universe. So, you might have heard of Shiva, Durga, Ganesh, and so on. They are devas or devatas or demigods, and their relationship with the Supreme God or Krishna is compared to members of a cabinet with the king. So, Brahma is in charge of creation, Shiva is in charge of destruction, Indra is in charge of rainfall, Varuna is in charge of the waters, Vayu is in charge of the wind. So, they are not the Supreme God, they are servants of the Supreme God, but because of their pious activities, they have been awarded with these services in the management of the universe.

Rabbi Charnes: Are they physical beings that were exalted ultimately into a demigod status or were they always spiritual beings?

Giriraj Swami: They were always the demigods. But some, like Brahma, even Indra, they are posts, they are positions. So, of course, the duration of life of Brahma is very long, but, yes, a living entity, if he is pious enough, he can occupy the post of Brahma or Indra. Whereas Shiva is his own. He is in his own category. No one can become Shiva. He is considered sort of halfway between a living entity and the Supreme Godhead. He is in his own category.

Rabbi Charnes: So, is your understanding of the complexity of God. . . Is it a complexity of One or a multiplicity of many? I am still not clear on that. In the Jewish tradition, we have an Absolute, and there may be a difference here, I am not sure and then we will try and understand a little more nuanced dimension of each position. But in the Jewish faith, we have One Absolute, complete. It is a singularity. In fact, the mystics in the Jewish faith speak of it is an Absolute and an infinite Oneness. So, there is an infinite dimension to that Oneness, but it is an Absolute Oneness. So, we can experience God infinitely through every different encounter in life if we have a heart that is open, and a mind that is seeking, and eyes that are searching for, and ears that are willing to hear. But the Oneness is absolutely foundational to the Jewish tradition. Everything is grounded in One, but just like a light going through a prism, it refracts, it breaks up white light into color. That Oneness can manifest itself as distinct aspects, but it is always that One source, that One Source of Mercy, that One Source of love, that One Source of creation, and that One Source of life that is always calling us into relationship. But it is One that we can encounter through many different ways. How does that fit with your model of the Divine Personhood or Personhoods of Krishna and the Gods or the demigods?

Giriraj Swami: It is the same. It is completely the same. Absolutely the same.

Rabbi Charnes: So then, what does it mean that Krishna was born, on this day? For us, God always was. One of the names of God, I would love to know some other names or insights into the names, the meaning behind the names of God, Krishna, Shiva, and Brahma. In Judaism, one of the names of God, he has many names for the one. But one of the names of God has the letters in it that represent the word, I am getting a little grammatical, and I am sorry, but it is, in grammar, there is the verb “to be, is, was, will be.” One of the names of God in Judaism has the letters that make up is—present tense being, was—past tense being, and will be—future tense. So, it is an infinite continuity of being, existential being. Always was, always is, and always will be. That is one of the Sacred names of God that we speak of. And there is no birth. There is no death. There is no incarnation. It simply always is and always will be. And we participate in that infinite dimension of God by worshiping, by praying, by living a holy life. What does it mean that Krishna was born if Krishna is the all-encompassing Eternal God?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, well, Krishna is never born. He always was, He is, and He always will be. So, what we are celebrating today is His appearance day, and I will explain what that means. So, Krishna exists eternally in His abode, the kingdom of God. But He comes into this world from time to time to show people who He is and what He does to attract them to His Divine personality and service. And when He appears, He chooses very pure souls to act as His mother and father. But He is not born. But the example is given that the sun is always there, but at a certain time, it appears to rise, and at a certain time, it appears to set. But it is always there. So, in the same way, Krishna is always there, but at a certain time, He appears to our vision on Earth, and then He disappears. And during that Time, I think you might also have something like that in the Jewish tradition—but one can have different relationships with God. Of course, we are all servants of God, that is a given. But one can be in the mood of just as a servant, one can be in the mood of a friend, one can be in the mood of a parent. And so, Krishna selects two very pure souls who are in the mood of parental love, and He appears as their son. But He always exists. It is just like a pastime.

Rabbi Charnes: And what exactly, does pastime mean?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, pastime means, the Sanskrit word is līlā, and it means, something He does for His pleasure, not something that He is obliged to do.

Rabbi Charnes: And what is the purpose of those pastimes as far as our lives? Are they instructional, are they? They are actual, He actually existed, and the events took place?

Giriraj Swami: Yes.

Rabbi Charnes: But is there a symbolic dimension for us in life that we are to model, that we are to imitate, that we are to live by? Or is it simply the historic dimension of His existence at that time?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, His appearance and activities are instructive and there is a very important verse in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.9).

janma karma ca me divyam
yo jānāti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti kaunteya

One who understands the transcendental nature of Krishna’s appearance and activities in this world never has to take birth again but attains to Krishna’s, he goes to Krishna.

Now, I guess you could say the philosophical basis of that statement is that the soul is eternal and when the soul leaves the body, it goes somewhere and where it goes depends on the person’s activities during life and thoughts at the time of death, and in that way, one continues to transmigrate from one body to another in the material world. But if one thinks of Krishna at the time of death, then one doesn’t have to take birth again in the material world but goes to Krishna and lives with Krishna in the spiritual world, and that is mukti or moksha that is, liberation from the cycle of birth and death.

Rabbi Charnes: Once we move beyond this plane and we enter the next plane assuming with that Krishna consciousness—is that a static existence then, simply in the presence of Krishna or is there an evolving, growing, awakening awareness of the Infinite World or Dimension that we are in? Are We growing still, once we are beyond this plane in the presence of Krishna, are we growing in awareness of divine knowledge or are we simply present before and with the Divine and that is our Eternal state?

Giriraj Swami: Well, when we go to Krishna and join Him in the spiritual world, Krishna is unlimited and so our appreciation of Him can also increase without limit. So, I would say it is not static, but it is dynamic.

Rabbi Charnes: So, are we as souls within this body and then beyond this body in the presence of either Krishna or in the incarnations that take place because we didn’t have a life fully lived or rightly lived? Is our soul, the non-material nature of our being is that eternal or is that at some point generated in the past?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, the soul is eternal, it has no beginning and no end. Sometimes we might say that we are created by God, but technically we are not created, but we always exist. It is like the sun and the sun rays; both exist simultaneously, both are eternal, in this example, but still the sun is, you could say primary, and the sun rays are secondary, but they both exist simultaneously.

Rabbi Charnes: Would we, do we partake in that infinite nature, metaphorically, with the sun as rays or are we in a sense also the Divinity since we are both in this model that you are speaking of? Are we both Divine, not having an aspect of the Divine, but are we both equally Divine since we are both eternal?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, the soul is part and parcel of Krishna.

Rabbi Charnes: Our souls, our individual souls?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, and they have the same qualities as God but in minute quantity.

Rabbi Charnes: So, it is a part of the infinite if we can use that language?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, we are, the individual soul is an aspect of the infinite, part and parcel.

Rabbi Charnes: So, we are in in part Krishna, the universal Godhead?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, but two things: one, He is infinite and we are infinitesimal.

Rabbi Charnes: Okay.

Giriraj Swami: He is the master and we are the servants.

Rabbi Charnes: How do we work our way back into, as infinitesimal aspects of the Infinite? How do we work our way back into the infinite, in this life, on this plane or on the many planes that we have to go through?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, that is the most important question and the answer is through loving service to God. Now, there are different, you could say different stages in the practice, because in the beginning we don’t have love. I mean, we might have a sense of love, but we don’t have fully developed love, so this practice or process is called bhakti-yoga and there is a whole science of bhakti-yoga. Anyway so, Krishna appeared what we are celebrating today, He appeared five thousand years ago, but then He appeared again five hundred years ago in the guise of a devotee—to show us how to be devotees and that is Sri Krishna Chaitanya—you have heard of Him?

Rabbi Charnes: I have heard of Chaitanya, yes.

Giriraj Swami: So, Sri Krishna Chaitanya is Krishna, but in the role of a devotee.

Rabbi Charnes: So, He is human, physically able to be touched, spoken to, He eats, He sleeps.

Giriraj Swami: Yes, So He appeared five hundred years ago, and He empowered one of his disciples named Rupa Gosvami to explain the whole science of bhakti-yoga. So Rupa Gosvami wrote a book called Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, that is the complete science of bhakti-yoga and Srila Prabhupada has given us a summary study of that book as The Nectar of Devotion. So, if we follow that process, we can become qualified by the Lord’s mercy to go to the Lord; that is the process—bhakti-yoga.

Rabbi Charnes: What does bhakti mean? I know we only have a few moments, but what is the foundation of bhakti in terms of both in terms of its etymology, the meaning of the word bhakti and how does that manifest itself in our service, so that we can come back to God? What is the way of bhakti in life?

Giriraj Swami: Bhakti means devotion love and devotion and one who practices bhakti is called the bhakta—devotee and so when we follow this process of bhakti-yoga especially as explained by Rupa Gosvami we can perfect our lives and go back home back to Godhead and be with Krishna, be with God.

Rabbi Charnes: I am intentionally not speaking much on the Jewish understanding of these ideas because I want to understand more on this sacred day, at this sacred time your tradition, but I want to help, I want to understand, or this will help me understand in this one question I am going to bring up some Jewish Dimensions to see, are we on similar paths to the One or are we on parallel paths that sometimes part ways?

Giriraj Swami: We will do this first, continue with this first.

Rabbi Charnes: I want to understand more how we make our way back into our ultimate connection with God, which is what we are all seeking. In the Jewish tradition we live a life of service to both God and to our fellow human and we do it through a series of ritual commandments or practices. The Hebrew word is mitzvah so our ritual practices are called our commandments are called mitzvahs or mitzvot. That is what we do in the morning. We wear this or we wear certain garments or we say certain prayers or we live in certain ways with our fellow human being. But the root meaning of this word of living a life of commandment, the root word of commandment is the Hebrew word for “to connect” or “to join” and in a broader context it means joining something that was formally whole, like a vase was whole and it was broken but put back together joined back together. So again the imagery that I am trying to express here is we have a vase that is whole that was broken and the pieces were put back together and made whole again. That word for to join those broken pieces back into that original wholeness is the Hebrew word that we use for commandment. Our ritual life, our commandments are the way metaphorically that we come back to wholeness, that original wholeness that we had in life which is the wholeness with God. So, we live a life here of holy living in service of others and in service of our Maker to reconnect the broken parts of our being into that organic original wholeness.

What does the devotee from your tradition do to regain that wholeness besides the offerings that I am seeing here, the ārati or the bhakti which I don’t know how bhakti manifests itself in life? So what is the process of holy living in bhakti-yoga and is its ultimate purpose to rejoin you connect you again with that original wholeness?

Giriraj Swami: To connect and the English word “yoke” like “to yoke to oxen” comes from the word yoga and so yes, the goal of yoga is to connect with God, to be linked to God.

Rabbi Charnes: And it involves more than simply prayers or meditation or chanting, it involves engagement with our brothers and sisters in life?

Giriraj Swami: Yes, very much so.

Rabbi Charnes: I could ask many more questions, but I know others also have questions.

Giriraj Swami: Well, thank you. We are honored to have you in our midst.

Rabbi Charnes: Thank you all and I am honored to be here, and I look forward to learning more. Shalom!